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Topic:  RE: Interesting ANews Article

Topic:  RE: Interesting ANews Article
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Ted Thompson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 1:39:45 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
So if every school in Ohio is seeing similar reduction in enrollment, doesn't that suggest the market itself is shrinking, not necessarily market share?

If that's true, it makes sense Miami is trying to attract out of state students (expand the market area).


BG is up.

https://www.bgsu.edu/news/2019/09/bowling-green-state-uni...


But BG is not up much. Undergraduate enrollment on the main campus is up 1.6%. Graduate enrollment declined. It looks like their growth came from BGSU Firelands and eCampus initiatives. They wouldn't seem to be as big a driver of revenue than main campus undergraduate and graduate enrollment. It would seem the Ohio market is down.


Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 1:46:46 PM 
Ted Thompson wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
So if every school in Ohio is seeing similar reduction in enrollment, doesn't that suggest the market itself is shrinking, not necessarily market share?

If that's true, it makes sense Miami is trying to attract out of state students (expand the market area).


BG is up.

https://www.bgsu.edu/news/2019/09/bowling-green-state-uni...


But BG is not up much. Undergraduate enrollment on the main campus is up 1.6%. Graduate enrollment declined. It looks like their growth came from BGSU Firelands and eCampus initiatives. They wouldn't seem to be as big a driver of revenue than main campus undergraduate and graduate enrollment. It would seem the Ohio market is down.



The market is down, but our share of that seems a bit robust. Especially when you take the last three years, and the hit in applications this year.

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 2:51:48 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
So if every school in Ohio is seeing similar reduction in enrollment, doesn't that suggest the market itself is shrinking, not necessarily market share?

If that's true, it makes sense Miami is trying to attract out of state students (expand the market area).


BG is up.

https://www.bgsu.edu/news/2019/09/bowling-green-state-uni...


My bad. Thanks for the correction. Any idea of how or why they're weathering the storm?

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 3:16:22 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
UpSan Bobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Dug a little deeper and the undergraduate enrolllment on the Athens campus for this semester is 14,965. Two springs ago it was 16,614. That's a 10% drop. The number of high school graduates did not drop 10% during that time period.


True, but are the same percentage of students who graduate going to college, especially to four-year colleges?



Doesn't really matter. Colleges are drawing from the same pool no matter the size of that pool and if college A is seeing an increase in enrollment and college B is seeing a decrease, that's a loss of market share for college B.



My understanding is that every school in the system other than OSU is facing this to one degree or another. Some, like Toledo, BG and Akron, are in much more dire straights than Ohio. UC is dealing with the situation by backing off on their moves to be more selective, and Miami of course is doubling down on out of state recruitment, though they've never been able to replicate their success in Chicago anywhere else in the country and with that Chicago pipeline maximized are in a very precarious situation.


I feel like the Miami Chicago pipeline's discussed almost exclusively as a negative here. I'm not an expert in these things, but I'm curious why that is. What's bad about it?

Given the state of things, wouldn't we basically kill to have a pipeline of folks from the 3rd largest city in the country that pay 2x what our average student does?


I agree that it's a good thing from both a regional diversity standpoint and an economic standpoint. I think depending on the school and its mission somewhere between a fifth and a third out of state students is a good thing.

I can't speak for others, but my criticism of Miami is one of degree. They have gone so overboard on the oos student recruitment that I think it legitimately raises the question of their commitment to being an Ohio university and thus the accompanying question of whether the state and its taxpayers should continue to support it at the expense of the other schools whose commitment to the state is much more solid.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 3:56:34 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
UpSan Bobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Dug a little deeper and the undergraduate enrolllment on the Athens campus for this semester is 14,965. Two springs ago it was 16,614. That's a 10% drop. The number of high school graduates did not drop 10% during that time period.


True, but are the same percentage of students who graduate going to college, especially to four-year colleges?



Doesn't really matter. Colleges are drawing from the same pool no matter the size of that pool and if college A is seeing an increase in enrollment and college B is seeing a decrease, that's a loss of market share for college B.



My understanding is that every school in the system other than OSU is facing this to one degree or another. Some, like Toledo, BG and Akron, are in much more dire straights than Ohio. UC is dealing with the situation by backing off on their moves to be more selective, and Miami of course is doubling down on out of state recruitment, though they've never been able to replicate their success in Chicago anywhere else in the country and with that Chicago pipeline maximized are in a very precarious situation.


I feel like the Miami Chicago pipeline's discussed almost exclusively as a negative here. I'm not an expert in these things, but I'm curious why that is. What's bad about it?

Given the state of things, wouldn't we basically kill to have a pipeline of folks from the 3rd largest city in the country that pay 2x what our average student does?


I agree that it's a good thing from both a regional diversity standpoint and an economic standpoint. I think depending on the school and its mission somewhere between a fifth and a third out of state students is a good thing.

I can't speak for others, but my criticism of Miami is one of degree. They have gone so overboard on the oos student recruitment that I think it legitimately raises the question of their commitment to being an Ohio university and thus the accompanying question of whether the state and its taxpayers should continue to support it at the expense of the other schools whose commitment to the state is much more solid.


Just spoke with the father of four who was in the OU Sports Ad program back in the late 80s about the Chicago/Miami connection. Two of his kids graduated from New Trier High School and two are still there. He said that this is the second generation of folks going to Miami and in fact his youngest daughter wants to go there. He mentioned that New Trier sends close to 30 kids a year to Miami. I mentioned Muskingum earlier. There were some high schools that were pipeline feeder schools to the college. Someone at sometime must have established that feeder program in Chicago on behalf of Miami and it just keeps feeding itself. By the way, he said that OU has zero presence up his way. That could be why a couple of months ago we were advertising for a recruitment person for that area. If I was 20 years younger I would have applied.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 3:58:20 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
UpSan Bobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Dug a little deeper and the undergraduate enrolllment on the Athens campus for this semester is 14,965. Two springs ago it was 16,614. That's a 10% drop. The number of high school graduates did not drop 10% during that time period.


True, but are the same percentage of students who graduate going to college, especially to four-year colleges?



Doesn't really matter. Colleges are drawing from the same pool no matter the size of that pool and if college A is seeing an increase in enrollment and college B is seeing a decrease, that's a loss of market share for college B.



My understanding is that every school in the system other than OSU is facing this to one degree or another. Some, like Toledo, BG and Akron, are in much more dire straights than Ohio. UC is dealing with the situation by backing off on their moves to be more selective, and Miami of course is doubling down on out of state recruitment, though they've never been able to replicate their success in Chicago anywhere else in the country and with that Chicago pipeline maximized are in a very precarious situation.


I feel like the Miami Chicago pipeline's discussed almost exclusively as a negative here. I'm not an expert in these things, but I'm curious why that is. What's bad about it?

Given the state of things, wouldn't we basically kill to have a pipeline of folks from the 3rd largest city in the country that pay 2x what our average student does?


I agree that it's a good thing from both a regional diversity standpoint and an economic standpoint. I think depending on the school and its mission somewhere between a fifth and a third out of state students is a good thing.

I can't speak for others, but my criticism of Miami is one of degree. They have gone so overboard on the oos student recruitment that I think it legitimately raises the question of their commitment to being an Ohio university and thus the accompanying question of whether the state and its taxpayers should continue to support it at the expense of the other schools whose commitment to the state is much more solid.


It's hard to find the most recent numbers, but it looks like based on our 2019 factbook 21% of OU students were out of state. At Miami, it looks like it was just under 40%.

But what's sort of buried in there is that Miami also has 3x the international students, which end up counted in those figures. Their international enrollment's almost 13% of the entire student body.

I think yours is certainly a fair question to ask. But at the same time, to what extent is Miami's greater out of state/international enrollment just a function of better execution? In other words, would OU enroll more out of state/international students if we were better at attracting them? Or are we really committed to the state in some different way?

Last Edited: 2/7/2020 4:01:31 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 4:07:59 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
The number of high school graduates did not drop 10% during that time period.


It seems like the number of high school graduates in Ohio is dropping though. I'm no expert in this area, but just digging around to try and understand it better I saw a few different references to a shrinking high school graduate population in Ohio.

Seems like Ohio State's also doubling down on out of state/international enrollments. This article lays that out: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2016/09/21/thre...

It's now at 32.6% out of state at Ohio State and they expect it to rise to 35%.

That, coupled with the declining number of high school grads in Ohio, makes me think we might just being outgunned by Miami, OSU, etc. in the fight for out of state students.
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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 4:39:12 PM 
Some midwest schools offer reciprocity for neighboring states, granting them in-state tuition costs. Does OHIO do that with West Virginia or Pennsylvania? Would that help our numbers? I know I'd love to send my children there (live in Illinois) and will be able to if the Legacy program remains where children of alumni can pay in-state tuition.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 4:46:33 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
The number of high school graduates did not drop 10% during that time period.


It seems like the number of high school graduates in Ohio is dropping though. I'm no expert in this area, but just digging around to try and understand it better I saw a few different references to a shrinking high school graduate population in Ohio.

Seems like Ohio State's also doubling down on out of state/international enrollments. This article lays that out: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2016/09/21/thre...

It's now at 32.6% out of state at Ohio State and they expect it to rise to 35%.

That, coupled with the declining number of high school grads in Ohio, makes me think we might just being outgunned by Miami, OSU, etc. in the fight for out of state students.


It is but it's not that drastic. But, admitting that it is requires increased sales efforts in other states.

http://www.aicuo.edu/Graphs%20-%20Ohio%20Residents.aspx
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 4:49:10 PM 
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Last Edited: 2/7/2020 4:50:08 PM by Alan Swank

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/7/2020 11:23:43 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Yikes.

So by "their" definition, what is a "balanced demographic aiming?"

If the goal is to maximize $ flow, the choice is obvious. We should just target Chinese students.

There are 1.4 billion people in China compared to 330 million people in America. There are 11 or 12 million in Ohio.

With all due respect to Miami sorority girls, the international students from China whose parent's own a manufacturing plant have way more money than your middle management parents. The math isn't that hard.

Now, I don't believe that's ideal for Ohio University... I'm of the opinion the majority of "Ohio" students should be from "Ohio" but what do I know...


I've seen crazier things happen.

Black 41 Flash Reverse

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/8/2020 8:14:23 AM 
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Yikes.

So by "their" definition, what is a "balanced demographic aiming?"

If the goal is to maximize $ flow, the choice is obvious. We should just target Chinese students.

There are 1.4 billion people in China compared to 330 million people in America. There are 11 or 12 million in Ohio.

With all due respect to Miami sorority girls, the international students from China whose parent's own a manufacturing plant have way more money than your middle management parents. The math isn't that hard.

Now, I don't believe that's ideal for Ohio University... I'm of the opinion the majority of "Ohio" students should be from "Ohio" but what do I know...


To your point here are UVA's enrollment numbers.

Class of 2019 Undergraduate Profile:

70% are Virginia residents
31.1% are minority students
5.3% are from outside of the United States
69.8% graduated from a public secondary school
24.0% graduated from a private secondary school
53.5% receive some form of financial aid
87.2% ranked in the highest tenth of their high school graduating class
Mean combined SAT score was 663 Verbal, 671 Math and 665 Writing
Admissions: Of 23,593 Fall 2015 applicants, 6,991 students were offered admission, and 2,852 enrolled
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/8/2020 9:11:10 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Yikes.

So by "their" definition, what is a "balanced demographic aiming?"

If the goal is to maximize $ flow, the choice is obvious. We should just target Chinese students.

There are 1.4 billion people in China compared to 330 million people in America. There are 11 or 12 million in Ohio.

With all due respect to Miami sorority girls, the international students from China whose parent's own a manufacturing plant have way more money than your middle management parents. The math isn't that hard.

Now, I don't believe that's ideal for Ohio University... I'm of the opinion the majority of "Ohio" students should be from "Ohio" but what do I know...


To your point here are UVA's enrollment numbers.

Class of 2019 Undergraduate Profile:

70% are Virginia residents
31.1% are minority students
5.3% are from outside of the United States
69.8% graduated from a public secondary school
24.0% graduated from a private secondary school
53.5% receive some form of financial aid
87.2% ranked in the highest tenth of their high school graduating class
Mean combined SAT score was 663 Verbal, 671 Math and 665 Writing
Admissions: Of 23,593 Fall 2015 applicants, 6,991 students were offered admission, and 2,852 enrolled


I found this on Miami's website, though Miami is clearly playing a little trick here to make their class rank and test scores look better. They're putting out the "admitted students" rather than actual freshman class numbers. The latter will clearly not be as good since people at the bottom of the "admitted class" will be far more likely to enroll than people at the top of the admitted class to whom Miami was most likely were accepted to schools higher up their list.

In any event, only 43.3% of "admitted students were from Ohio. I guess that's what I mean when I talk about the degree to which Miami has turned its back on Ohio. UVA is an actual elite, national public university (what Miami delusionally thinks it is), yet it still takes 70% of its students from Virginia.

https://miamioh.edu/admission/high-school/admitted-studen...

As for OSU, I did find a comment from their outgoing President that they see 1/3 out of state as an ideal figure and aren't looking to go much beyond that.

What would be interesting in judging Ohio's efforts vis-a-vis Miami and OSU would be to get ahold of how much money each school spends on out of state recruitment and then weight that by the size of their freshman classes. I'd bet that number would be highest by a mile at Miami, and that we'd significantly be trailing OSU.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/8/2020 9:40:39 AM 
This article gives one of the reasons for more out of state students:

"The Ohio Conference of the American Association of University Professors, the union representing about 6,000 professors at both public and private institutions of higher education across the state, predicted just this possibility in a 2017 report. It cited a new funding formula passed under then-Gov. John Kasich, which rewarded Ohio universities for graduating students rather than enrolling them.

"This formula incentivizes institutions to be more selective with admissions," the report stated. "In seeking only students who are more certain to graduate, universities are looking further afield, actively recruiting out-of-state and even foreign students who can pay full tuition but are less likely to remain in Ohio after they graduate."

https://www.coshoctontribune.com/story/news/2019/08/20/wh... /

Last Edited: 2/8/2020 10:25:59 AM by Alan Swank

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/8/2020 12:58:41 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Yikes.

So by "their" definition, what is a "balanced demographic aiming?"

If the goal is to maximize $ flow, the choice is obvious. We should just target Chinese students.

There are 1.4 billion people in China compared to 330 million people in America. There are 11 or 12 million in Ohio.

With all due respect to Miami sorority girls, the international students from China whose parent's own a manufacturing plant have way more money than your middle management parents. The math isn't that hard.

Now, I don't believe that's ideal for Ohio University... I'm of the opinion the majority of "Ohio" students should be from "Ohio" but what do I know...


To your point here are UVA's enrollment numbers.

Class of 2019 Undergraduate Profile:

70% are Virginia residents
31.1% are minority students
5.3% are from outside of the United States
69.8% graduated from a public secondary school
24.0% graduated from a private secondary school
53.5% receive some form of financial aid
87.2% ranked in the highest tenth of their high school graduating class
Mean combined SAT score was 663 Verbal, 671 Math and 665 Writing
Admissions: Of 23,593 Fall 2015 applicants, 6,991 students were offered admission, and 2,852 enrolled


I found this on Miami's website, though Miami is clearly playing a little trick here to make their class rank and test scores look better. They're putting out the "admitted students" rather than actual freshman class numbers. The latter will clearly not be as good since people at the bottom of the "admitted class" will be far more likely to enroll than people at the top of the admitted class to whom Miami was most likely were accepted to schools higher up their list.

In any event, only 43.3% of "admitted students were from Ohio. I guess that's what I mean when I talk about the degree to which Miami has turned its back on Ohio. UVA is an actual elite, national public university (what Miami delusionally thinks it is), yet it still takes 70% of its students from Virginia.

https://miamioh.edu/admission/high-school/admitted-studen...

As for OSU, I did find a comment from their outgoing President that they see 1/3 out of state as an ideal figure and aren't looking to go much beyond that.

What would be interesting in judging Ohio's efforts vis-a-vis Miami and OSU would be to get ahold of how much money each school spends on out of state recruitment and then weight that by the size of their freshman classes. I'd bet that number would be highest by a mile at Miami, and that we'd significantly be trailing OSU.


Despite the "admitted student" rate, 61% of the student body is from Ohio. It seems like Miami is aware that admission acceptance rates will be much higher for in state students and lower for out of state and international students, so they accommodate accordingly.

Ohio State -- the flagship state school -- expects in state enrollment to be 65% by next year. If that 4% difference enough to strip state funding from Miami but not do the same with OSU?

It seems like you're holding Miami to a unique standard over a difference that only seems to be one of degree.

And again, we're currently undergoing layoffs and will likely undergo more. A greater investment in international/OOS recruitment would likely have been a wise strategy.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/9/2020 10:11:54 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Yikes.

So by "their" definition, what is a "balanced demographic aiming?"

If the goal is to maximize $ flow, the choice is obvious. We should just target Chinese students.

There are 1.4 billion people in China compared to 330 million people in America. There are 11 or 12 million in Ohio.

With all due respect to Miami sorority girls, the international students from China whose parent's own a manufacturing plant have way more money than your middle management parents. The math isn't that hard.

Now, I don't believe that's ideal for Ohio University... I'm of the opinion the majority of "Ohio" students should be from "Ohio" but what do I know...


To your point here are UVA's enrollment numbers.

Class of 2019 Undergraduate Profile:

70% are Virginia residents
31.1% are minority students
5.3% are from outside of the United States
69.8% graduated from a public secondary school
24.0% graduated from a private secondary school
53.5% receive some form of financial aid
87.2% ranked in the highest tenth of their high school graduating class
Mean combined SAT score was 663 Verbal, 671 Math and 665 Writing
Admissions: Of 23,593 Fall 2015 applicants, 6,991 students were offered admission, and 2,852 enrolled


I found this on Miami's website, though Miami is clearly playing a little trick here to make their class rank and test scores look better. They're putting out the "admitted students" rather than actual freshman class numbers. The latter will clearly not be as good since people at the bottom of the "admitted class" will be far more likely to enroll than people at the top of the admitted class to whom Miami was most likely were accepted to schools higher up their list.

In any event, only 43.3% of "admitted students were from Ohio. I guess that's what I mean when I talk about the degree to which Miami has turned its back on Ohio. UVA is an actual elite, national public university (what Miami delusionally thinks it is), yet it still takes 70% of its students from Virginia.

https://miamioh.edu/admission/high-school/admitted-studen...

As for OSU, I did find a comment from their outgoing President that they see 1/3 out of state as an ideal figure and aren't looking to go much beyond that.

What would be interesting in judging Ohio's efforts vis-a-vis Miami and OSU would be to get ahold of how much money each school spends on out of state recruitment and then weight that by the size of their freshman classes. I'd bet that number would be highest by a mile at Miami, and that we'd significantly be trailing OSU.


Despite the "admitted student" rate, 61% of the student body is from Ohio. It seems like Miami is aware that admission acceptance rates will be much higher for in state students and lower for out of state and international students, so they accommodate accordingly.

Ohio State -- the flagship state school -- expects in state enrollment to be 65% by next year. If that 4% difference enough to strip state funding from Miami but not do the same with OSU?

It seems like you're holding Miami to a unique standard over a difference that only seems to be one of degree.

And again, we're currently undergoing layoffs and will likely undergo more. A greater investment in international/OOS recruitment would likely have been a wise strategy.


It's a good question. As I said earlier, I think, depending on the university, that somewhere between a fifth and a third of out of state students makes sense. I think Ohio should push for a quarter. If OSU is true to their word and they're not going to actively try and push it past a third, then I'm OK with that. Throw in OSU's other initiatives on affordability for in-state students and recruiting an economically diverse student body, and I'm OK with them. Should they attempt to push OOS enrollment to half the student body, then yes, I'd lump them in the same boat as Miami.

Miami, on the other hand, will take their OOS enrollment to 50% and beyond if they can. It's just that they've never been able to replicate the Chicago pipeline anywhere else in the country, and that Chicago pipeline seems to have been maxed out. And I don't see any sincere efforts on their part to make the college more affordable for Ohioans or to recruit an economically diverse student body. They have the second lowest percentage of Pell Grant students of every public university in the country. They trumpeted some new in-state scholarship fund recently, but it had nothing to do with a student's economic background, so you damn well know that it will be used to try and lure some doctor's kid in Chagrin Falls away from OSU.

Getting back to Ohio, the best way to attract those out of state students is by being selective and highly ranked, which is why it's such a tragedy that we failed to capitalize on favorable demographic trends a decade ago to tighten up our admissions profile. Now we're trying to sail into the wind so to speak.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/9/2020 10:28:17 AM 
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Yikes.

So by "their" definition, what is a "balanced demographic aiming?"

If the goal is to maximize $ flow, the choice is obvious. We should just target Chinese students.

There are 1.4 billion people in China compared to 330 million people in America. There are 11 or 12 million in Ohio.

With all due respect to Miami sorority girls, the international students from China whose parent's own a manufacturing plant have way more money than your middle management parents. The math isn't that hard.

Now, I don't believe that's ideal for Ohio University... I'm of the opinion the majority of "Ohio" students should be from "Ohio" but what do I know...


To your point here are UVA's enrollment numbers.

Class of 2019 Undergraduate Profile:

70% are Virginia residents
31.1% are minority students
5.3% are from outside of the United States
69.8% graduated from a public secondary school
24.0% graduated from a private secondary school
53.5% receive some form of financial aid
87.2% ranked in the highest tenth of their high school graduating class
Mean combined SAT score was 663 Verbal, 671 Math and 665 Writing
Admissions: Of 23,593 Fall 2015 applicants, 6,991 students were offered admission, and 2,852 enrolled


I found this on Miami's website, though Miami is clearly playing a little trick here to make their class rank and test scores look better. They're putting out the "admitted students" rather than actual freshman class numbers. The latter will clearly not be as good since people at the bottom of the "admitted class" will be far more likely to enroll than people at the top of the admitted class to whom Miami was most likely were accepted to schools higher up their list.

In any event, only 43.3% of "admitted students were from Ohio. I guess that's what I mean when I talk about the degree to which Miami has turned its back on Ohio. UVA is an actual elite, national public university (what Miami delusionally thinks it is), yet it still takes 70% of its students from Virginia.

https://miamioh.edu/admission/high-school/admitted-studen...

As for OSU, I did find a comment from their outgoing President that they see 1/3 out of state as an ideal figure and aren't looking to go much beyond that.

What would be interesting in judging Ohio's efforts vis-a-vis Miami and OSU would be to get ahold of how much money each school spends on out of state recruitment and then weight that by the size of their freshman classes. I'd bet that number would be highest by a mile at Miami, and that we'd significantly be trailing OSU.


Despite the "admitted student" rate, 61% of the student body is from Ohio. It seems like Miami is aware that admission acceptance rates will be much higher for in state students and lower for out of state and international students, so they accommodate accordingly.

Ohio State -- the flagship state school -- expects in state enrollment to be 65% by next year. If that 4% difference enough to strip state funding from Miami but not do the same with OSU?

It seems like you're holding Miami to a unique standard over a difference that only seems to be one of degree.

And again, we're currently undergoing layoffs and will likely undergo more. A greater investment in international/OOS recruitment would likely have been a wise strategy.




Getting back to Ohio, the best way to attract those out of state students is by being selective and highly ranked, which is why it's such a tragedy that we failed to capitalize on favorable demographic trends a decade ago to tighten up our admissions profile. Now we're trying to sail into the wind so to speak.


Isn't this exactly what you have been accusing Miami of doing successfully?

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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/9/2020 10:42:48 AM 
https://www.miamioh.edu/_files/documents/oir/fbook/18-19/...

Fall of 2019 - 19,934

We could go on and on about this for pages but the bottom line is that we are getting outsold and we better find out why and do something about it soon. Not only is this affecting the university but it is affecting Athens as a whole in terms of income tax receipts, property values, city school taxes, etc.
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/9/2020 11:22:38 AM 
Is there anyway to see what the out of state student's major are and what college they are enrolled? I seem to recall that a good many out state students I knew where drawn to Ohio because of our excellent Journalism and English school. Many of my friends who were International students were Engineering majors. With fewer International students coming to this part of the country, as well as other factors like more Third World nations building their own institutions of higher learning, this will have an impact on International student numbers.

I realize my time in Athens was more than few moons ago, but I have heard from parents whose kids are about to graduate that there are not as many kids considering Journalism, English etc as there once was. I have got a few years before my kids have to make those kind of decisions, so I am not as in the loop as I will be. Just curious of anyone else's thoughts.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/9/2020 11:43:35 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Is there anyway to see what the out of state student's major are and what college they are enrolled? I seem to recall that a good many out state students I knew where drawn to Ohio because of our excellent Journalism and English school. Many of my friends who were International students were Engineering majors. With fewer International students coming to this part of the country, as well as other factors like more Third World nations building their own institutions of higher learning, this will have an impact on International student numbers.

I realize my time in Athens was more than few moons ago, but I have heard from parents whose kids are about to graduate that there are not as many kids considering Journalism, English etc as there once was. I have got a few years before my kids have to make those kind of decisions, so I am not as in the loop as I will be. Just curious of anyone else's thoughts.


Here are the number of freshmen journalism majors by year starting in the fall of 2011:

2011 - 231
2012 - 243
2013 - 237
2014 - 209
2015 - 199
2016 - 162
2017 - 143
2018 - 133
2019 - 113

This chart shows similar numbers and the same precipitous decline.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/student/FrProfileMajor.html

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/9/2020 5:10:46 PM 
Wow, thanks Alan, in 8 short years the number of Journalism majors dropped by more than half. My guess is that it has nothing to do with the quality of the Journalism program at our Alma mater, but more so to do with the free fall in print journalism. Unless you are a diamond in the rough and get a job with a large local TV network or with a cable news channel, your chances aren't good. Perhaps our bread and butter majors were from a dying industry. Also, even though we have a growing well respected medical college, those numbers along can't keep up with declines in other majors. This coupled with the decline of International students in this part of the country, our regional demographic winter, and the picture becomes all too clear.

Last Edited: 2/9/2020 5:12:41 PM by cbus cat fan

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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/9/2020 5:25:55 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Wow, thanks Alan, in 8 short years the number of Journalism majors dropped by more than half. My guess is that it has nothing to do with the quality of the Journalism program at our Alma mater, but more so to do with the free fall in print journalism. Unless you are a diamond in the rough and get a job with a large local TV network or with a cable news channel, your chances aren't good. Perhaps our bread and butter majors were from a dying industry. Also, even though we have a growing well respected medical college, those numbers along can't keep up with declines in other majors. This coupled with the decline of International students in this part of the country, our regional demographic winter, and the picture becomes all too clear.


If you look at the bottom number in each college in this chart, you'll see that the college of communication has experienced a 24% drop in that time period - the steepest of any of the colleges. On the flip side, the college of business has seen a 20% increase. How do you business majors interpret that?

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/student/FrProfileMajor.html

Last Edited: 2/9/2020 5:26:11 PM by Alan Swank

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/9/2020 6:52:01 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Yikes.

So by "their" definition, what is a "balanced demographic aiming?"

If the goal is to maximize $ flow, the choice is obvious. We should just target Chinese students.

There are 1.4 billion people in China compared to 330 million people in America. There are 11 or 12 million in Ohio.

With all due respect to Miami sorority girls, the international students from China whose parent's own a manufacturing plant have way more money than your middle management parents. The math isn't that hard.

Now, I don't believe that's ideal for Ohio University... I'm of the opinion the majority of "Ohio" students should be from "Ohio" but what do I know...


To your point here are UVA's enrollment numbers.

Class of 2019 Undergraduate Profile:

70% are Virginia residents
31.1% are minority students
5.3% are from outside of the United States
69.8% graduated from a public secondary school
24.0% graduated from a private secondary school
53.5% receive some form of financial aid
87.2% ranked in the highest tenth of their high school graduating class
Mean combined SAT score was 663 Verbal, 671 Math and 665 Writing
Admissions: Of 23,593 Fall 2015 applicants, 6,991 students were offered admission, and 2,852 enrolled


I found this on Miami's website, though Miami is clearly playing a little trick here to make their class rank and test scores look better. They're putting out the "admitted students" rather than actual freshman class numbers. The latter will clearly not be as good since people at the bottom of the "admitted class" will be far more likely to enroll than people at the top of the admitted class to whom Miami was most likely were accepted to schools higher up their list.

In any event, only 43.3% of "admitted students were from Ohio. I guess that's what I mean when I talk about the degree to which Miami has turned its back on Ohio. UVA is an actual elite, national public university (what Miami delusionally thinks it is), yet it still takes 70% of its students from Virginia.

https://miamioh.edu/admission/high-school/admitted-studen...

As for OSU, I did find a comment from their outgoing President that they see 1/3 out of state as an ideal figure and aren't looking to go much beyond that.

What would be interesting in judging Ohio's efforts vis-a-vis Miami and OSU would be to get ahold of how much money each school spends on out of state recruitment and then weight that by the size of their freshman classes. I'd bet that number would be highest by a mile at Miami, and that we'd significantly be trailing OSU.


Despite the "admitted student" rate, 61% of the student body is from Ohio. It seems like Miami is aware that admission acceptance rates will be much higher for in state students and lower for out of state and international students, so they accommodate accordingly.

Ohio State -- the flagship state school -- expects in state enrollment to be 65% by next year. If that 4% difference enough to strip state funding from Miami but not do the same with OSU?

It seems like you're holding Miami to a unique standard over a difference that only seems to be one of degree.

And again, we're currently undergoing layoffs and will likely undergo more. A greater investment in international/OOS recruitment would likely have been a wise strategy.




Getting back to Ohio, the best way to attract those out of state students is by being selective and highly ranked, which is why it's such a tragedy that we failed to capitalize on favorable demographic trends a decade ago to tighten up our admissions profile. Now we're trying to sail into the wind so to speak.


Isn't this exactly what you have been accusing Miami of doing successfully?



I don't think so because it's not a dichotomous, black-and-white, either-or situation. There's a lot of grey area between what Miami has turned itself into and an open-admission school that makes no effort to recruit out of state students. The country is full of public universities that are as selective or more selective than Miami that still manage to attract diverse student bodies, students from a wide range of socio-economic backgrounds all the while not turning their back on their states. Those schools are what Ohio should be aspiring to become.
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 5,812

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/9/2020 9:12:48 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
The Optimist wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
From OU's website today. I found this bullet point most interesting:

Shift our enrollment efforts from heavily in-state undergraduate to a more balanced demographic aiming, to increase the overall percentage of adult learners and
non-traditional students, transfer students, out-of-state and international students, and under-represented groups

https://www.ohio.edu/president/ohio-strategic-framework/s...

Yikes.

So by "their" definition, what is a "balanced demographic aiming?"

If the goal is to maximize $ flow, the choice is obvious. We should just target Chinese students.

There are 1.4 billion people in China compared to 330 million people in America. There are 11 or 12 million in Ohio.

With all due respect to Miami sorority girls, the international students from China whose parent's own a manufacturing plant have way more money than your middle management parents. The math isn't that hard.

Now, I don't believe that's ideal for Ohio University... I'm of the opinion the majority of "Ohio" students should be from "Ohio" but what do I know...


To your point here are UVA's enrollment numbers.

Class of 2019 Undergraduate Profile:

70% are Virginia residents
31.1% are minority students
5.3% are from outside of the United States
69.8% graduated from a public secondary school
24.0% graduated from a private secondary school
53.5% receive some form of financial aid
87.2% ranked in the highest tenth of their high school graduating class
Mean combined SAT score was 663 Verbal, 671 Math and 665 Writing
Admissions: Of 23,593 Fall 2015 applicants, 6,991 students were offered admission, and 2,852 enrolled


I found this on Miami's website, though Miami is clearly playing a little trick here to make their class rank and test scores look better. They're putting out the "admitted students" rather than actual freshman class numbers. The latter will clearly not be as good since people at the bottom of the "admitted class" will be far more likely to enroll than people at the top of the admitted class to whom Miami was most likely were accepted to schools higher up their list.

In any event, only 43.3% of "admitted students were from Ohio. I guess that's what I mean when I talk about the degree to which Miami has turned its back on Ohio. UVA is an actual elite, national public university (what Miami delusionally thinks it is), yet it still takes 70% of its students from Virginia.

https://miamioh.edu/admission/high-school/admitted-studen...

As for OSU, I did find a comment from their outgoing President that they see 1/3 out of state as an ideal figure and aren't looking to go much beyond that.

What would be interesting in judging Ohio's efforts vis-a-vis Miami and OSU would be to get ahold of how much money each school spends on out of state recruitment and then weight that by the size of their freshman classes. I'd bet that number would be highest by a mile at Miami, and that we'd significantly be trailing OSU.


Despite the "admitted student" rate, 61% of the student body is from Ohio. It seems like Miami is aware that admission acceptance rates will be much higher for in state students and lower for out of state and international students, so they accommodate accordingly.

Ohio State -- the flagship state school -- expects in state enrollment to be 65% by next year. If that 4% difference enough to strip state funding from Miami but not do the same with OSU?

It seems like you're holding Miami to a unique standard over a difference that only seems to be one of degree.

And again, we're currently undergoing layoffs and will likely undergo more. A greater investment in international/OOS recruitment would likely have been a wise strategy.




Getting back to Ohio, the best way to attract those out of state students is by being selective and highly ranked, which is why it's such a tragedy that we failed to capitalize on favorable demographic trends a decade ago to tighten up our admissions profile. Now we're trying to sail into the wind so to speak.


Isn't this exactly what you have been accusing Miami of doing successfully?



I don't think so because it's not a dichotomous, black-and-white, either-or situation. There's a lot of grey area between what Miami has turned itself into and an open-admission school that makes no effort to recruit out of state students. The country is full of public universities that are as selective or more selective than Miami that still manage to attract diverse student bodies, students from a wide range of socio-economic backgrounds all the while not turning their back on their states. Those schools are what Ohio should be aspiring to become.


If you look at the Miami data, they do exactly that. I guess I don't get your hatred of Miami.

Last Edited: 2/9/2020 10:31:18 PM by Alan Swank

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 2,587

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: Interesting ANews Article
   Posted: 2/10/2020 8:22:08 AM 
One factor that can,to some extent,have an impact on enrollment
is the availability of certain degree programs.

The Job Network section of yesterday's The Record had an article by Eli Admur about working in professional sports.

One of things he mentioned in the article was the explosion in colleges offering degrees in Sports management.
Schools saw an opportunity and jumped on it.

Same thing,a few years ago ,Construction Management was a hot degree.

Around here,Pace University was one of the only places for a CM degree.

Other schools jumped on the bandwagon.

I can't say if this type of thing had a significant impact on O.U.

But if I want degree "A" and I can get it while living at home or at a cheaper
tuition,I may go that route.

Where it gets tricky is when the market gets over saturated or interest in a certain degree "cools".


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