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Topic:  Oversigning- OHIO vTroy

Topic:  Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
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perimeterpost
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  Message Not Read  Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/20/2010 3:52:44 PM 
stumbled upon this website that looks at schools that practice "oversigning" of football players and the advantage it gives them over other teams. Looks like they are primarily focused on SEC schools as the problem tends to be worse in the South. Oversisgning results in kids not recieving a scholarship they thought they were promised and by having already signed it keeps them from being able to accept an offer from another school that would actually follow through on their commitment.

They did a comparison of recruiting classes for OHIO and Troy during the last 5 years and Troy has recuited 53 more players than OHIO during that time frame. That's 30 recuits/year for Troy vs. 19.4 recuits/year for OHIO. NCAA rules allows for a total of 85 scholarships but no more than 25 can be given out in any given year. During the past 5 years Troy has never signed less than 25 and OHIO has never signed more than 22 in a year.

How much better would we be if we had an additional 53 players to choose from, including 5 more QBs and 9 more recievers? Troy has signed a minimum of 25 kids in the last 5 years and then not follwed through with a scholarship. That's terrible for those kids and reflects poorly on the school. Glad to see Frank and team are trying to do things the right way for OHIO.

http://oversigning.com/testing/


MY STATE. MY TEAM.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/20/2010 5:37:15 PM 
To me this problem became an issue when they cut from 25 a year/105 total to 25 a year/85 total. If you figure that about half the players redshirt at some point, then a player's career would average 4.5 years. If a school awards 25 scholarships a year, they would eventually end up with 112 on scholarship. Factor in a couple lost players a year due to injury, graduation, grades, or whatever, and you end up close to the old 105 number. The annual number should have been cut to 20-21, in my opinion, if they were going to cut the total to 85.

Any school that, like Troy or Temple, awards 25 every year, has got to be churning players, eliminating a lot more that the normal 2-3 a year attrition.

Last Edited: 12/20/2010 5:38:19 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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mcbin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/20/2010 6:26:02 PM 
Thanks Perimeterpost. This is very interesting reading, and I'm going to spend some time there. I'm interested in if Troy(or similar schools) end up denying scholarships to a lot of promised players? Or are they like Temple seems to have been in years past, and plan on a fair number of the players never making it to campus for grades or otherwise?
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Tim Burke
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/20/2010 8:28:22 PM 
mcbin wrote:
Thanks Perimeterpost. This is very interesting reading, and I'm going to spend some time there. I'm interested in if Troy(or similar schools) end up denying scholarships to a lot of promised players? Or are they like Temple seems to have been in years past, and plan on a fair number of the players never making it to campus for grades or otherwise?


You're really just now learning about this?

The SEC is the SEC because they all sign 10-15 more players than anyone else every year, then cut guys over the summer. I don't have much positive to say about Ohio State, but at least Jim Tressel is an ethical man who doesn't oversign (he instead gives scholarships to deserving walkons). 

Of course, this is why the SEC annihilates Ohio State every time they play.

Ohio '99 EMU '00 USF '08(?)

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Ohio Hoops
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/20/2010 8:29:47 PM 
SEC is also the SEC because for the players they don't oversign they are usually giving under the table Pony Express like benefits to. 


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Tim Burke
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/20/2010 8:33:27 PM 
Oh, and if you really want to get some jollies go read up on the Bryant Scholarship.

Alabama is so corrupt it's embarrassing but the NCAA doesn't care -- they let the SEC spin the money machine.

Ohio '99 EMU '00 USF '08(?)

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Ohio Hoops
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/20/2010 8:35:25 PM 
Part of the reasoning Urban left and Peterson didn't want the UF job. Whole different ball game from Texas through Florida. Until the NCAA seems to have more than a passing interest though what's the stop them? 


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Tim Burke
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/20/2010 8:48:08 PM 
L.C. wrote:
To me this problem became an issue when they cut from 25 a year/105 total to 25 a year/85 total. If you figure that about half the players redshirt at some point, then a player's career would average 4.5 years. If a school awards 25 scholarships a year, they would eventually end up with 112 on scholarship. Factor in a couple lost players a year due to injury, graduation, grades, or whatever, and you end up close to the old 105 number. The annual number should have been cut to 20-21, in my opinion, if they were going to cut the total to 85.

Any school that, like Troy or Temple, awards 25 every year, has got to be churning players, eliminating a lot more that the normal 2-3 a year attrition.



The 25/year is a myth. That rule only applies to conferences that enforce it (like the Big 10 and the MAC).

Ohio '99 EMU '00 USF '08(?)

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Cat4ever
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/20/2010 9:32:47 PM 
Sickening. Disgusting. But it is what heartless bozos do in an effort to keep their multi-million dollar jobs.

Probably most disgusting is the NCAA's role -- or lack thereof.  It is irrational to allow the practice to go unchecked.

The only thing that is a fact is that nothing is a fact.
If this statement is true, it is also false.
                  --Dr. Donald Horning, circa 1965

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the gump
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/21/2010 11:33:07 AM 
I am a Troy grad and fan who was born and raised in Akron. I am familiar with the history of the University and your athletic program. Several of my relatives hold degrees from Ohio U. That being said, I'd like to point out that the numbers have been manipulated by the media in order to sell a story, that is, the Troy numbers of which I am very familiar. The figures fail to differentiate between February signings, gray shirts and mid term letters of intent. Troy signssomewhere between five and eight players at mid term. These scholarships count against the previous years class. There is always some attrition that occurs naturally without the need to force a player out. For instance, there were several players that quit the team over playing time issues, others had career ending injuries;there were also academic and disciplinary casualties as well. We also gray shirt four to five players per year. They, as you know,  count on the next years recruiting class. Our quarterback who played in the New Orleans was gray shirted then red shirted. He had plenty of talent but lacked the physical strength and size to play football at the FBS level so he needed to be developed. This was a risk that paid off.In order for a school like Troy to sign the type of players that not only will be successful but also help the program to grow our staff must not only be creative but take certain risks. The bottom line is that Troy only oversigns three to four players per year and they are generally placed by our coaches into a junior college program. This post was only meant to be explanatory not argumentative. BTW I attended the New Orleans Bowl and thoroughly enjoyed interacting with the OU fans. You are by and far the most gracious lot I have met. It's a shame to travel that far for such a disappointment. I have made such journies several times. Y'all have a great institution and a good athletic program. Good luck next year. I'll be rooting for you.
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Tim Burke
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/21/2010 8:24:47 PM 
the gump wrote:
I am a Troy grad and fan who was born and raised in Akron. I am familiar with the history of the University and your athletic program. Several of my relatives hold degrees from Ohio U. That being said, I'd like to point out that the numbers have been manipulated by the media in order to sell a story, that is, the Troy numbers of which I am very familiar. The figures fail to differentiate between February signings, gray shirts and mid term letters of intent. Troy signssomewhere between five and eight players at mid term. These scholarships count against the previous years class. There is always some attrition that occurs naturally without the need to force a player out. For instance, there were several players that quit the team over playing time issues, others had career ending injuries;there were also academic and disciplinary casualties as well. We also gray shirt four to five players per year. They, as you know,  count on the next years recruiting class. Our quarterback who played in the New Orleans was gray shirted then red shirted. He had plenty of talent but lacked the physical strength and size to play football at the FBS level so he needed to be developed. This was a risk that paid off.In order for a school like Troy to sign the type of players that not only will be successful but also help the program to grow our staff must not only be creative but take certain risks. The bottom line is that Troy only oversigns three to four players per year and they are generally placed by our coaches into a junior college program. This post was only meant to be explanatory not argumentative. BTW I attended the New Orleans Bowl and thoroughly enjoyed interacting with the OU fans. You are by and far the most gracious lot I have met. It's a shame to travel that far for such a disappointment. I have made such journies several times. Y'all have a great institution and a good athletic program. Good luck next year. I'll be rooting for you.


Numbers "manipulated by the media"? The media's not even covering this. Look, the fact is that over the past four recruiting seasons Troy has signed 53 more players than we have. PERIOD. That's more than half a team. There are only a few ways to explain this:

1. Troy recruits players who are likely to not qualify academically
2. Troy recruits players who are likely to commit crimes
3. Troy recruits players with the knowledge they will revoke these players' scholarships arbitrarily later once it is realized they aren't as good as they thought.

Ohio '99 EMU '00 USF '08(?)

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/22/2010 12:38:39 AM 
the gump wrote:
...The bottom line is that Troy only oversigns three to four players per year and they are generally placed by our coaches into a junior college program. ...

Considering that these are contracts, why is oversigning even one player acceptable?

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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TroyFootball05
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/22/2010 4:31:03 AM 
This story has been greatly manipulated. The numbers aren't what they seem. They count the kids we sign from JUCO twice. In other words, if a kid signs with Troy, and then he goes to JUCO and comes back to Troy, he's counted again. The site uses the same kids twice as if they were different kids. We do this a lot so it looks like were signing a lot more than we actually are. Also, there is a recent article stating that we've never not given a kid a scholarship that we've promised one to. While it looks like what we're doing is wrong, no one's ever been hurt by it. We abide by the NCAA Roster and Scholarship limits as well, so there's no cheating going on. You guys should dig a little deeper and find out these things.
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John C. Wanamaker
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/22/2010 7:56:07 AM 

That is correct Troy fan those are counted twice (not sure how many you get that way), but we have had a few of those our selves over the years.  What this article is also not taking into account is the number of kids who sign and then don't make the grade, or do not make it to college period and the school then picks someone else up.  Hence you sign two kids but only get one.  Now that being said there are some schools who simply send out 35+NLI's and only "accept" the ones they want.

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half."

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the gump
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/22/2010 5:18:00 PM 
Tim Burke wrote:
the gump wrote:
I am a Troy grad and fan who was born and raised in Akron. I am familiar with the history of the University and your athletic program. Several of my relatives hold degrees from Ohio U. That being said, I'd like to point out that the numbers have been manipulated by the media in order to sell a story, that is, the Troy numbers of which I am very familiar. The figures fail to differentiate between February signings, gray shirts and mid term letters of intent. Troy signssomewhere between five and eight players at mid term. These scholarships count against the previous years class. There is always some attrition that occurs naturally without the need to force a player out. For instance, there were several players that quit the team over playing time issues, others had career ending injuries;there were also academic and disciplinary casualties as well. We also gray shirt four to five players per year. They, as you know,  count on the next years recruiting class. Our quarterback who played in the New Orleans was gray shirted then red shirted. He had plenty of talent but lacked the physical strength and size to play football at the FBS level so he needed to be developed. This was a risk that paid off.In order for a school like Troy to sign the type of players that not only will be successful but also help the program to grow our staff must not only be creative but take certain risks. The bottom line is that Troy only oversigns three to four players per year and they are generally placed by our coaches into a junior college program. This post was only meant to be explanatory not argumentative. BTW I attended the New Orleans Bowl and thoroughly enjoyed interacting with the OU fans. You are by and far the most gracious lot I have met. It's a shame to travel that far for such a disappointment. I have made such journies several times. Y'all have a great institution and a good athletic program. Good luck next year. I'll be rooting for you.


Numbers "manipulated by the media"? The media's not even covering this. Look, the fact is that over the past four recruiting seasons Troy has signed 53 more players than we have. PERIOD. That's more than half a team. There are only a few ways to explain this:

1. Troy recruits players who are likely to not qualify academically
2. Troy recruits players who are likely to commit crimes
3. Troy recruits players with the knowledge they will revoke these players' scholarships arbitrarily later once it is realized they aren't as good as they thought.
This will be my last post. Your statements aren't  aren't facts they are speculation. The number of mid term signees and gray shirts can be substantiated. You may call it what you want, but if you do what you did you'll get what you got; which is a loss.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/23/2010 2:20:51 PM 
L.C. wrote:
the gump wrote:
...The bottom line is that Troy only oversigns three to four players per year and they are generally placed by our coaches into a junior college program. ...

Considering that these are contracts, why is oversigning even one player acceptable?


I've wondered the same thing myself, L.C. This is all real shady. I'm not speaking specifically about Troy, whose fans seem to have reasonable explanations for their numbers, but more to some of the SEC schools who reportedly make a joke of the whole thing.
In other words, having a player be replaced with another via a second LOI because the first guy didn't qualify, went instead to a JUCO, etc., is far different than purposely signing in excess of your maximum LOIs with the intention of weeding out the chaff once they get on campus. That's criminal, IMHO.

Last Edited: 12/23/2010 2:30:24 PM by OhioCatFan

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Oversigning- OHIO vTroy
   Posted: 12/23/2010 3:04:31 PM 
I understand that occasionally there will be a case where you didn't expect someone to qualify, but does, where you might go one over, in which case a grayshirt would be the normal recourse. How do you miss so far that you have to push 4-5 a year to Juco who did qualify?

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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