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Topic: Refresher Training

Topic: Refresher Training

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Bobcatbob
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Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Coolville, OH
Post Count: 1,347

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Refresher Training

Posted: 3/28/2011 11:31:09 AM

It's time for my annual attempt at proving the theory that a playoff in college sports provides undeniable evidence that the "best" team is exposed through a single elimination playoff / tournament.

Thankfully, the very organization that raises the question each year also provides a conclusive answer.

Playoff proponents, BCS haters and plain ol' fans like me, see if you can answer "Yes" to all of these statements.

Through 5 games, the NCAA Men's Basketball Championship tournament proves:

The Selection Committee erred completely in identifying its 4 "1" seeds,
BOTH VCU and Butler are among the 4 best basketball teams in the country,
Duke and Pittsburgh are no better than the top 32 teams in the country,
By placing a team in the Final Four in consecutive seasons, the Horizon league has proven itself to be a "power" conference,
the Big East is a complete sham deserving of only one or two teams in the field,
"experts" filling out the brackets for a limited field of contestants will always identify the "right" participants to include AND their all important seeding, and

FINALLY, at the conclusion of the Championship game on April 4, the fans of OSU, Kansas, Duke, Pitt, VCU, Butler, UConn and Kentucky will unanimously agree that the winner that night is the "best" team in the country, leaving all protestations behind and join in celebrating the one true CHAMPION!.

If, like me, you struggle to find agreement with all those statements then, perhaps, an 8 or a 16 team NCAA football playoff isn't the definitive answer you seek.

LoganElm_grad09
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Member Since: 9/9/2010
Location: South Bloomingville, OH
Post Count: 934

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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/28/2011 12:37:41 PM

This argument is about like the "nature vs nurture" debate in Sociology. There is no good absolute answer. In a bowl, (theoretically), the two best teams over the course of a season get to meet to decide who was better, mono e mono. Also, strength of schedule is brought into the equation as well.

But what happens when another team outside of #1 and #2 goes the distance? In that case, a playoff would have worked. TCU may not have played a "gauntlet" like the Big Ten in football, instead playing the little sisters of the poor all season, but they knocked off a Big Ten school in the Rose Bowl. They weren't playing Indiana or Duke, they beat the Wisconsin Badgers. How was their season rewarded? "You're second best because you weren't in a BCS conference! Congrats!"

However, playoffs do take some meaning out of the regular season. Look at the NFL. They have had teams have ample opportunities to go undefeated, something nobody has done in what, 30 years? (Dolphins?) But they rest their starters and get beat, because there is no importance in the end of the regular season.

No good solution between those two options.

TheRealMikeDrake
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Delaware, OH
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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/28/2011 2:22:10 PM

Bobcatbob wrote:

It's time for my annual attempt at proving the theory that a playoff in college sports provides undeniable evidence that the "best" team is exposed through a single elimination playoff / tournament.

First, Bob, I tried to give this a go. Honestly.

If we're discussing best team then why worry about 32nd best, or what the committee forecasted? The tournament's purpose is to determine a winner. The "best" team will be decided on April 5th.

Will that team be the team that people thought would be the best before the season started? Will they be the one who performed the most consistently throughout the season? Were they tested on the road and outside their conference? None of this matters.

"Best" is excelling over others. VCU, Butler, Kentucky, and UNC have excelled over everyone else this tournament thus far. For the most part, everyone had the same oppurtuntity, the same neutrality, and these four are remaining to be called the "best".

One game can be an abberation, and Duke, Pitt, Kansas and Ohio State are probably sick to their stomach. One game can cost you a title in this sport, but at least you get a shot. Zero games can cost you a title in football.

Bobcatbob
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Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Coolville, OH
Post Count: 1,347

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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/28/2011 4:28:19 PM

I picked on Duke because the cut-off has to be somewhere in any tournament. In the NCAA, it's 64+ so Duke was in even if their actual showing reflected their pre-tournament status. However, if they had happened to fall outside the entry cut-off by whatever rules apply, they don't even get a shot. So when you pick your top 8, 12, 16 whatever, you better have some good metrics.

"Best" is a totally subjective term in this argument,. I can't define it because I don't buy into the concept of "best" being determined by a single game in any sport. If you use "champion" instead, then a tournament is adequate to decide that - for that tournament.

In BCS terms, is the "Number 1 team" the "best" or the champion or both?

Ohio69
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/28/2011 4:57:29 PM

OK, so how do you decide who the best team is?

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/28/2011 6:05:55 PM

If Butler wins two more games they are the BEST college basketball team in the nation. The same for VCU, UConn and Kentucky. Why is it that some folks will have more trouble recognizing that fact if it's Butler or VCU, but will feel more comfortable if it's UK or UConn? For me, it's the exact opposite.

I understand that bobcatbob was raising a philosophical question about how you decide who is best, but I don't think that's a relevant question here. All NCAA members have agreed on the rules -- a one-loss-and-you're-done tourney. So, by definition, if you win and advance you are BETTER than the team that lost and went home. In NCAA baseball it's double elimination, so there you lose once and you still have a chance. So the definition of best in that case requires something a little different. If the rules had been different when Ohio was in the CWS back in the Schmidt days, we probably would have been the best in college baseball that year. We were the only team in the CWS to beat the eventual champion USC (by a score of 1-0). If I could go back and rewrite the rules I would, but I can't -- so Ohio will have to accept what (if memory is correct) was a third place finish. The rules you play by and accept are what determines who is BEST in any given sport in any given year.

Last Edited: 3/29/2011 6:14:49 PM by OhioCatFan

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SouthernCat
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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/29/2011 2:46:24 PM

Ohio69 wrote:

OK, so how do you decide who the best team is?

Experts conjecture and polling.

UpSan Bobcat
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Member Since: 8/30/2005
Location: Upper Sandusky, OH
Post Count: 3,812

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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/29/2011 4:30:34 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

If Butler wins two more games they are the BEST college basketball team in the nation. The same for VCU, UConn and Kentucky. Why is it that some folks will have more trouble recognizing that fact if it's Butler or VCU, but will feel more comfortable if it's UK or UConn? For me, it's the exact opposite.

I understand that bobcatbob was raising a philosophical question about how you decide who is best, but I don't think that's a relevant question here. All NCAA members have agreed on the rules -- a one-loss-and-you're-done tourney. So, by definition, if you win and advance you are BETTER than the team that lost and went home. In NCAA baseball it's double elimination, so there you lose once and you still have a chance. So the definition of best in that case requires something a little different. If the rules had been different when Ohio was in the CWS back in the Schmidt days, we probably would have been the best in college baseball that year. We were the only team in the CWS to beat the eventual champion USC (by a score of 1-0). If I could go back and rewrite the rules I would, but I can't -- so Ohio will have to accept what (if memory is correct) was a third place finish. The rules you play by an accept are what determines who is BEST in any given sport in any given year.

A double- or even triple-elimination tournament (or series) tends to better produce a result of the best team being crowned the champion, but how practical would it be for anything but baseball? It works because you can play baseball every day (or even two games in a day). A team may be able to beat another team once out of 100 times, and it just may happen that one time occurs.

The problem with just having one championship game rather than a tournament is it exludes teams that might really be the best team, and gives them no chance to win the championship. A tournament might produce a result where the truly best team doesn't win, but at least more than two teams get a chance.

rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,598

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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/29/2011 6:11:49 PM

One problem with the current system is that all losses are not equal.

For example:
Team A is ranked #1 and plays team B in their first game and loses.
They drop in the rankings but have a chance to climb back to #1 or# 2.
The same teams with the same rankings play the last game of the season and team A loses.
No chance to get to a title game.

At least ,with a playoff season ,if a highly ranked team loses late in the season they would still
have a chance to make the playoffs and compete for the national championship.

Pataskala
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Member Since: 7/8/2010
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Post Count: 9,365

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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/30/2011 8:48:01 PM

The whole point of a tournament or a playoff is not to determine the best team but to crown a champion. There are dozens of examples where the team with a pitiful record won their league's championship. The 1973 Mets is the first to come to mind. They won their division with an 82-79 record, then beat the Big Red Machine for the NL championship. Were they the best team in NL that year? Not by a long shot. But they were good enough to win their division and good enough (or lucky enough) to be NL Champs.

And the thing about a playoff to crown the 1A champ is that it would help to overcome the lousiest part of the current system: where you have three or more unbeaten teams, or where the timing of losses determines who plays for the big trophy. Under the current system, a 1A team's only loss could be to a 1AA team in the first week of the season, but it wouldn't hurt their chances to get into the BCS championship game as much as if their only loss was in their last regular season game or conference championship game to a top ten team. The so-called "body of work" factor that goes into selection for almost every other college championship field is practically non-existent for 1A football because most of the people voting in the polls don't look back any farther than last week.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

Bobcatbob
General User

Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Coolville, OH
Post Count: 1,347

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RE: Refresher Training

Posted: 3/31/2011 7:41:42 AM

Ohio69 wrote:

OK, so how do you decide who the best team is?

Ah, there's the key question! To me it doesn't matter who's "best". I like the contests, I like the role that underdogs play and, most of all, I like to have room for a good argument when it's over. That's why I favor the traditional bowls over the BCS and basketball's regular season conference championship over tournaments.

This one, however, (the NCAA D1 men's) is just great TV, if you can locate truTV.

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