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Topic:  Toledo wants win vacated

Topic:  Toledo wants win vacated
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Ohio Pilot
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  Message Not Read  Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 3:38:19 PM 
Story:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7021872/toledo-rockets-say-win-awarded-syracuse-orange-due-refs-error
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Big Willy
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 4:28:57 PM 
Toledo got screwed. The kick was obviously not good. How the officials and the replay officials missed that I will never know - other than that they are crooked. The ball was not above the upright - it obviously passed in front of the upright. It is very clear on the replay.  And the Big East has admitted that the call was wrong.

Last Edited: 9/26/2011 4:30:42 PM by Big Willy
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Bobcat36
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 5:06:34 PM 
Even though we pretty much know the answer to this question already, this will prove out whether the MAC has even one huevo to its name...

GoBobcats!!!!            Always have been and always will be... Ohio's First and Finest!

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 7:16:28 PM 
The game's over, deal with it. People get screwed over all the time and stuff never gets changed (see: Colorado 5th down). This will tarnish what could be a great season for Toledo. You did your best, now move on to MAC play. In a more cynical and straight forward to the point remark: who the hell cares?
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 7:21:15 PM 
One more reason to get out of the MAC at the first opportunity.  I can't imagine a commissioner of another conference giving such a "weaselly" answer under similar circumstances.  It's enough to give weasels a bad name!

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 7:41:55 PM 
Consulting the rulebook, apparently, is for weasels.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 8:19:17 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
The game's over, deal with it. People get screwed over all the time and stuff never gets changed (see: Colorado 5th down). This will tarnish what could be a great season for Toledo. You did your best, now move on to MAC play. In a more cynical and straight forward to the point remark: who the hell cares?



The MAC has turned Toledo down:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ap-201109...

Maybe they'll use this as an excuse to join another conference (Big Twelv, Big Least, CUSA) should they get asked.

I can see your point about putting it behind them.  Beckman may have made a big distraction for his team, and with an important game at Temps coming up Saturday. 

Or maybe he's using it for motivation?

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 8:39:20 PM 
This is scarcely the first time a visiting MAC team has been victimized by questionable/phantom/horrendous calls at the home of a major school.  Numerous excamples come to mind.  One is a certain game that was played in Raleigh during a hurricane-force rain.

Another occurred a few years ago when Northern Illinois was visiting Wisconsin.  NIU had the lead and with only a couple minutes or fewer to go, Wisconsin took possession deep in its end.  Then ensued a "drive" during which NIU's defense was penalized 4 times.  Wisconsin scored as time expired to win. 

Hmmm...Were I a MAC school AD, in negotiating a contract to visit a major school, I just might ask that the agreement  include this provision: Before the kickoff, game officials will meet with the visiting team and coaches and pledge to call a fair game. 

Enforceable?  Of course not.  But something like that could influence the way game officials "see" the action.

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 10:31:23 PM 
Outright corruption goes beyond statements in an NCAA rulebook.  We are getting into the realm of legal actionable behavior.  If I was UT, I'd be consulting some high-powered attorneys.  As MJ points out, this is not the first time such behavior has occurred.  We are not talking about a "questionable call" here; we are talking about a call that was reviewed on tape and then a decision was made that's exactly contradicted by the evidence on the tape.  This is the worst screwup that I can ever remembered of this type.  Someone needs to be held accountable.

Last Edited: 9/26/2011 10:32:11 PM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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whocaresgobobcats
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/26/2011 11:49:16 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
The game's over, deal with it. People get screwed over all the time and stuff never gets changed (see: Colorado 5th down). This will tarnish what could be a great season for Toledo. You did your best, now move on to MAC play. In a more cynical and straight forward to the point remark: who the hell cares?



If this was Ohio getting screwed at Rutgers, there would lots of people here who care. So I'm sure there are plenty of Toledo fans and player that care.
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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 12:08:15 AM 
Maybe the Big East will give Cuse the bird for leaving for the ACC and vacate the win...  

I've seen crazier things happen.

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 2:15:44 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Outright corruption goes beyond statements in an NCAA rulebook.  We are getting into the realm of legal actionable behavior.  If I was UT, I'd be consulting some high-powered attorneys.  As MJ points out, this is not the first time such behavior has occurred.  We are not talking about a "questionable call" here; we are talking about a call that was reviewed on tape and then a decision was made that's exactly contradicted by the evidence on the tape.  This is the worst screwup that I can ever remembered of this type.  Someone needs to be held accountable.


Laughable. Corruption? How are you gonna prove that, sparky? The Big East said (and you can believe it or not) the replay official didn't use the correct camera angle when reviewing the play. You want to take this to court? Really? With what outcome? You want UT to spend a wheelbarrow full of money for "high-powered" lawyers to litigate this? This is fantasyland. I thought you'd be against stupid lawsuits. Think about this. You want a court to change the outcome of a sporting event. Yeah, it sucked, but that happens. Unless it's the final play of the game, you can't change the result. You have to accept the mistake and move on. That's what we all agree on beforehand.

Of course it's not the first time this has happened. Why? Because being a college referee is a sucky job. They don't make a ton of money, they have to handle travel themselves, and everything they do gets scrutinized as much as the freakin' president. And it's a part-time job. It's not as though they're working through the offseason to get better. They're working at their real jobs. You think you can do it well under those circumstances? The best refs by and large are in the NFL. The SEC takes the best of what's left and it gets ugly from there. And the good refs are actually out on the field; they stick the crappier ones in the replay booth.

But it's easier and more convenient to accuse everyone of conspiracies and corruption and being held down and whatnot. It simply can't be human error; it must be  I'm sure there was a lot of pressure behind the scenes to affect the outcome of Toledo at Syracuse. I'm sure millions were riding on that one. Let's get R-Truth on it. Furthermore, how do you know there hasn't been disciplinary action taken?

And something else I'm wondering: Why does Bobcat36 want the MAC to have eggs?

(The worst call I can remember was a few years ago in basketball. Incidentally, it was a Big East crew. Guy hit a game winner that clearly beat the buzzer but it was waived off and the refs did not overturn on the video review. Simply awful. 5th Down was also a worse mistake. Vinny Testaverde's 4-yard TD run from the 5 also comes to mind.)

This inspired me to look this up: http://www.nesn.com/2010/06/breaking-down-the-top-10-wors...

Not included: The pass interference call that kept tOSU alive in 2003.

Last Edited: 9/27/2011 3:25:30 AM by JSF

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Bobcat36
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 9:40:11 AM 
Dragon,

You've honestly never once heard huevos used as a euphemism for balls?  Maybe I'm older than I thought... 

GoBobcats!!!!            Always have been and always will be... Ohio's First and Finest!

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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 10:12:43 AM 
JSF wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Outright corruption goes beyond statements in an NCAA rulebook.  We are getting into the realm of legal actionable behavior.  If I was UT, I'd be consulting some high-powered attorneys.  As MJ points out, this is not the first time such behavior has occurred.  We are not talking about a "questionable call" here; we are talking about a call that was reviewed on tape and then a decision was made that's exactly contradicted by the evidence on the tape.  This is the worst screwup that I can ever remembered of this type.  Someone needs to be held accountable.


Laughable. Corruption? How are you gonna prove that, sparky? The Big East said (and you can believe it or not) the replay official didn't use the correct camera angle when reviewing the play. You want to take this to court? Really? With what outcome? You want UT to spend a wheelbarrow full of money for "high-powered" lawyers to litigate this? This is fantasyland. I thought you'd be against stupid lawsuits. Think about this. You want a court to change the outcome of a sporting event. Yeah, it sucked, but that happens. Unless it's the final play of the game, you can't change the result. You have to accept the mistake and move on. That's what we all agree on beforehand.

Of course it's not the first time this has happened. Why? Because being a college referee is a sucky job. They don't make a ton of money, they have to handle travel themselves, and everything they do gets scrutinized as much as the freakin' president. And it's a part-time job. It's not as though they're working through the offseason to get better. They're working at their real jobs. You think you can do it well under those circumstances? The best refs by and large are in the NFL. The SEC takes the best of what's left and it gets ugly from there. And the good refs are actually out on the field; they stick the crappier ones in the replay booth.

But it's easier and more convenient to accuse everyone of conspiracies and corruption and being held down and whatnot. It simply can't be human error; it must be  I'm sure there was a lot of pressure behind the scenes to affect the outcome of Toledo at Syracuse. I'm sure millions were riding on that one. Let's get R-Truth on it. Furthermore, how do you know there hasn't been disciplinary action taken?

And something else I'm wondering: Why does Bobcat36 want the MAC to have eggs?

(The worst call I can remember was a few years ago in basketball. Incidentally, it was a Big East crew. Guy hit a game winner that clearly beat the buzzer but it was waived off and the refs did not overturn on the video review. Simply awful. 5th Down was also a worse mistake. Vinny Testaverde's 4-yard TD run from the 5 also comes to mind.)

This inspired me to look this up: http://www.nesn.com/2010/06/breaking-down-the-top-10-wors...

Not included: The pass interference call that kept tOSU alive in 2003.



JSF, there is, ahem, a tiny weakness in your case.  See the boldfaced paragraph above.  Salient point: no man is required to impose on himself such a "sucky" part-time job. 

If one does decide to take on such a job, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect he will do his utmost to perform at the highest possible level. 

At the least the Big East should suspend for the remainder of the season the replay officials. 

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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anorris
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 11:21:12 AM 
#1 issue here is that obviously the replay official either didn't have access to, or didn't utilize the ESPN/Big East Network feed.  Using replay-only cameras like they have in Peden when we aren't on TV is fine, but if they're limiting themselves by not making those angles available, that's incredibly silly.  In case you haven't noticed, those camera operators are, in fact, quite good.

If they had access to that angle and failed to look at it, I lay more of this at the feet of the guys in the replay booth.
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Bobcat36
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 11:35:47 AM 
Solution - Toledo gets the choice of taking Syracuse's bowl bid this year 

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Big Willy
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 12:54:01 PM 
I'm not sure what camera angle would not show the ball going IN FRONT OF the upright. Maybe they had a camera angle that didn't show the ball. This situation is totally different than an official simply making a bad call. This was REVIEWED by replay officials. There is no excuse for getting it wrong.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 1:50:34 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:
JSF, there is, ahem, a tiny weakness in your case.  See the boldfaced paragraph above.  Salient point: no man is required to impose on himself such a "sucky" part-time job. 

If one does decide to take on such a job, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect he will do his utmost to perform at the highest possible level. 


I never suggested that. I was making the argument the circumstances work to prevent people from doing as good a job as they could no matter how hard they try.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Bobcat36
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 2:00:51 PM 
JSF wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:
JSF, there is, ahem, a tiny weakness in your case.  See the boldfaced paragraph above.  Salient point: no man is required to impose on himself such a "sucky" part-time job. 

If one does decide to take on such a job, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect he will do his utmost to perform at the highest possible level. 


I never suggested that. I was making the argument the circumstances work to prevent people from doing as good a job as they could no matter how hard they try.


Chaos Theory
-  Courtesy of Dr Ian Malcolmb

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 5:07:03 PM 
I agree with JSF on this one. I'll go one more: it happened and will continue to happen because we are in the MAC and they are in something bigger. There is a bias in a game like that. Whether the refs admit it or not, they expect the MAC to lose that game. They don't do it intentionally and I'm not saying they cheated, but it's there.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 6:20:37 PM 
giacomo wrote:
I agree with JSF on this one. I'll go one more: it happened and will continue to happen because we are in the MAC and they are in something bigger. There is a bias in a game like that. Whether the refs admit it or not, they expect the MAC to lose that game. They don't do it intentionally and I'm not saying they cheated, but it's there.


Do you actually realize what you just said?

And, JSF, I didn't say anything about there being a conspiracy in this case.  You seem to be going back to some old discussions we had about another topic or topics -- that I've long since forgotten.  For the record, real conspiracies do exist -- like the Lincoln assassination, 9/11 and the generals' plot against Hitler.  What I said was that there is something corrupt about what happened in this UT-SU game.  Perhaps a better choice of words would have been "dishonest."  One dishonest official does not a conspiracy make.  One could not review that video and come to the conclusion reached without having made a dishonest -- or at the very least disingenuous -- judgment. 

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 6:23:33 PM 
Lord Wellington Fisherburn wrote:
GoCats105 wrote:
The game's over, deal with it. People get screwed over all the time and stuff never gets changed (see: Colorado 5th down). This will tarnish what could be a great season for Toledo. You did your best, now move on to MAC play. In a more cynical and straight forward to the point remark: who the hell cares?



If this was Ohio getting screwed at Rutgers, there would lots of people here who care. So I'm sure there are plenty of Toledo fans and player that care.


Yeah, and I'd the be saying the same thing if it happened to us. The game is over and they aren't going to bend the rules for us. Move on to the next game.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 7:41:40 PM 
Big Willy wrote:
I'm not sure what camera angle would not show the ball going IN FRONT OF the upright. Maybe they had a camera angle that didn't show the ball. This situation is totally different than an official simply making a bad call. This was REVIEWED by replay officials. There is no excuse for getting it wrong.


In the Big Least's cover-u, uh, official statement, they said that the replay official was looking at a view from a sideline camera that was "distorted."  "Distorted" is an appropriate term here.  Maybe he'd been reading the Warren Commission report and came up with a "magic football."

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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cubuffsdoug
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 8:17:08 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
The game's over, deal with it. People get screwed over all the time and stuff never gets changed (see: Colorado 5th down). This will tarnish what could be a great season for Toledo. You did your best, now move on to MAC play. In a more cynical and straight forward to the point remark: who the hell cares?



I was on that CU team and I'm not giving back my ring.  Btw, my cousin was the LB on Missouri who made the tackle on the first 4th down.  *&(^ happens.

Last Edited: 9/28/2011 8:53:10 AM by Jeff McKinney
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Bert Presley
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  Message Not Read  RE: Toledo wants win vacated
   Posted: 9/27/2011 8:25:32 PM 
cubuffsdoug wrote:
GoCats105 wrote:
The game's over, deal with it. People get screwed over all the time and stuff never gets changed (see: Colorado 5th down). This will tarnish what could be a great season for Toledo. You did your best, now move on to MAC play. In a more cynical and straight forward to the point remark: who the hell cares?



I was on that CU team and I'm not giving back my ring.  Btw, my cousin was the LB on Missouri who made the tackle on the first 4th down.  Sh*t happens.


you got it right on CU, you can't punish Syracuse they won in OT. As for the refs, firing is not good enough for them, send them to hell and have woody make them do 4 a days.

I am and forever will be the Wizard of OU.

DocBobcat was my Principal; and is still one cool Cat.

OHIO BOBCATS 2011,2012 MAC EAST FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS
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                               2011 MAC Tournament Champions (Field Hockey)
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                               2012 NCAA Tournament Sweet 16 (Mens Basketball)
                            


 
 
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