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Topic:  Ranking the MAC teams

Topic:  Ranking the MAC teams
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Cat4ever
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  Message Not Read  Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 2:36:28 PM 
With the regular season history, it is time to offer our opinion -- regardless of the standings -- how the MAC teams stack up, who's strongest right through who's weakest. I'll start by calling attention to the CBSsports.com 1-120. Here's the direct link to 26-120.  It's virtually my personal opinion as to how the teams stack up at this point. To save you a click, here is how I see the MAC PowerGrid:

 1. Toledo
 2. Northern Illinois
 3. Ohio
 4. Temple
 5. Western Michigan
 6. Ball State
 7. Eastern Michigan
 8. Bowling Green
 9. Kent State
10. Miami
11. Central Michigan
12. Buffalo
13. Akron

Serve up your thoughts!

The only thing that is a fact is that nothing is a fact.
If this statement is true, it is also false.
                  --Dr. Donald Horning, circa 1965

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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 2:55:37 PM 
Northern Illinois beat Toledo in the head-to-head match up at Toledo, and has a better record.  How can you rank Toledo as the best? 

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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That one crazy fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 2:59:38 PM 
Go to the link and look at the rankings of 26-120, Toledo is ranked ahead of NIU.  Toledo is 32 and NIU is 34 while we are 41.

The opposing team sucks!
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Cat4ever
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 4:30:18 PM 
bobcat695 wrote:
Northern Illinois beat Toledo in the head-to-head match up at Toledo, and has a better record.  How can you rank Toledo as the best? 


BC695, no question NIU came out on top of that 63-60 game. But this isn't a question necessarily of who won a H2H, or necessarily of record.  Speaking of records: Save for possibly the single worst officiating conclusion of the entire NCAA football season (the phantom FG at Syracuse), Toledo is 9-3. Give the backup QB the answer to one prayer, and they are 10-2 and winners at Ohio Stateium (what we should insist the horseshoe be renamed). That leaves the loss to NIU (on a Huskies TD with 19 seconds remaining) and a lop-sided loss to a Top 10 Boise State team.

I just think that ranks the Rockets a smidgen better than NIU.

I have to tell you, I thought long and hard about slotting Temple ahead of OUr team despite our comeback win. They led Penn State in the fourth quarter and blew out Maryland.

The only thing that is a fact is that nothing is a fact.
If this statement is true, it is also false.
                  --Dr. Donald Horning, circa 1965

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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 4:39:21 PM 
I understand your theory, I just don't agree with it.  Head-to-head games are an absolute for me.  There is no officiating controversy in the UT-NIU match-up, or any other quirk that screwed Toledo out of the win.  They lost to NIU in the Glass Bowl on national television. 

Regarding OU vs. Temple, it is the exact same thing.  Temple lost the game.  We can play the woulda, shoulda, coulda game to debate almost every team's season.  Penn State is not that good, and Maryland (one Division 1 win this year) is horrible.  One could argue that our win against Marshall is more impressive than Temple beating Maryland. 

Last Edited: 11/28/2011 5:33:37 PM by bobcat695

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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Steve
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 4:53:13 PM 
I thought Temple was the best team in the MAC.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 5:41:11 PM 
Ba dump dump chshshshshshshshshshshshhhhhhhh
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BBall Attack
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 7:16:47 PM 
After looking at the rankings I couldn't help but notice our 119th ranked SOS. The legitimacy of our ranking could greatly be strengthened if say we had a top 100, top 90, preferably top 80 schedule. I know the MAC schedule has a lot to do with that but so does the OOC schedule. I just think we can do better than 119 when theres only 120 teams.
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DelBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 8:17:47 PM 
BBall Attack wrote:
After looking at the rankings I couldn't help but notice our 119th ranked SOS. The legitimacy of our ranking could greatly be strengthened if say we had a top 100, top 90, preferably top 80 schedule. I know the MAC schedule has a lot to do with that but so does the OOC schedule. I just think we can do better than 119 when theres only 120 teams.


If we had a top 80 schedule and went 8-4 or 7-5 people would be saying "Well we should have played a couple gimmes instead of banging ourselves up at the beginning of the season."

We're 9-3. We have the best opportunity for a double digit win season in a looooooonnnnnnggggg time! Let's enjoy this!

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 9:11:38 PM 
bobcat695 wrote:
I understand your theory, I just don't agree with it.  Head-to-head games are an absolute for me. 


So should Ohio be behind Buffalo and Ball State?

I just don't think you can take the outcome of one game to be an absolute.
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 9:40:38 PM 
UpSan Bobcat wrote:

So should Ohio be behind Buffalo and Ball State?

I just don't think you can take the outcome of one game to be an absolute.


The clincher is that NIU finished ahead of Toledo in record as well as beating them H2H.  i just don't see a reasonable case being made that Toledo should be ranked ahead of NIU.
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/28/2011 9:41:33 PM 
bobcat695 wrote:
  One could argue that our win against Marshall is more impressive than Temple beating Maryland. 


One could also argue that our win over Temple was more impressive than Temple beating Maryland.
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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/29/2011 8:56:40 AM 
OUVan wrote:
UpSan Bobcat wrote:

So should Ohio be behind Buffalo and Ball State?

I just don't think you can take the outcome of one game to be an absolute.


The clincher is that NIU finished ahead of Toledo in record as well as beating them H2H.  i just don't see a reasonable case being made that Toledo should be ranked ahead of NIU.


I think it's just a matter of what you're going for. I think to really evaluate how good a team is, you need to take a look at every single game and not value any one more than the other, even a head-to-head game. Certainly I think Northern Illinois deserves to be ranked ahead of Toledo, but are the Huskies really better? Who would win the most if they played 10 times? I dont' know for sure.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/29/2011 10:33:32 AM 
Head-to-head real matchups and results always trump other considerations, IMHO.  NIU is better than Toledo because the scoreboard says so.  The only exception that I might make is for games like the Toledo-Syracuse tussle where an obvious officiating error gave the victory to the wrong team. 

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Paul Graham
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/29/2011 12:22:31 PM 
It's obviously a combination of several factors. 

1. Overall record

2. Head to head competition

3. Performance against shared opponents

If the teams are pretty even (like Toledo and NIU) then I think you have to look to head-to-head competition to make a final judgment.

And of course there is additional nuance in judging all of these factors. For instance, the Temple/Ohio game should be considered a legit head to head competition due to the importance of that game. Neither team can claim that they were looking past it or not taking it seriously. Therefore, that game should be given more weight, than, lets say, Temple's game with BG where they laid an egg.
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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/29/2011 1:14:23 PM 

And THIS is the inherent problem with the BCS. We've taken objective results (wins and losses) that are necessarily judged subjectively (ugly win, pretty loss, strength of schedule, etc., etc.) and tried to force it back into a formulized result in order to give it a sense of objectivity so the powers-that-be can pat themselves on the back and say, "We're so fair it's awesome," while lighting their Cubans with ESPN's hundred dollar bills. At least with the old poll-based system, everyone understood that it was a subjective system. And this year, Toledo can claim to be Cat4ever's MAC champion, based on his subjective criteria.
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/29/2011 4:23:27 PM 
UpSan Bobcat wrote:

I think it's just a matter of what you're going for. I think to really evaluate how good a team is, you need to take a look at every single game and not value any one more than the other, even a head-to-head game. Certainly I think Northern Illinois deserves to be ranked ahead of Toledo, but are the Huskies really better? Who would win the most if they played 10 times? I dont' know for sure.


I don't either but this is a ranking.  There is no question that they are very close.  And as for Toledo we aren't even discussing that they had better wins. We are discussing that they had better losses.  That hardly trumps the head-to-head or the better record.
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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/29/2011 5:09:54 PM 
OUVan wrote:
UpSan Bobcat wrote:

I think it's just a matter of what you're going for. I think to really evaluate how good a team is, you need to take a look at every single game and not value any one more than the other, even a head-to-head game. Certainly I think Northern Illinois deserves to be ranked ahead of Toledo, but are the Huskies really better? Who would win the most if they played 10 times? I dont' know for sure.


I don't either but this is a ranking.  There is no question that they are very close.  And as for Toledo we aren't even discussing that they had better wins. We are discussing that they had better losses.  That hardly trumps the head-to-head or the better record.


I agree in this situation. I certainly don't think there is enough evidence to say that Toledo certainly is better, and because the Rockets did lose to Northern Illinois, I'd have to give the Huskies the edge. I just don't think I'd inherently put them ahead just because of the one game. It is a key factor, but not the only factor for me. My wife asked me a week ago which team I'd rather have Ohio play and I really couldn't answer. I really don't know which team is better, but if I had to pick, in this case I'd give the edge to NIU because of the head-to-head victory.
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Cat4ever
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/29/2011 9:42:23 PM 
All that's needed to prove the point that the better team doesn't necessarily win is for a playoff of, say, eight teams to start with a clearly better No. 1 to lose by some freaky circumstance (which happens regularly) to No. 8. Yep, you produce a playoff "champion" ... but the best team isn't necessarily wearing the crown.

The only thing that is a fact is that nothing is a fact.
If this statement is true, it is also false.
                  --Dr. Donald Horning, circa 1965

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/29/2011 10:56:56 PM 
If they lose they are not "clearly better."

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/29/2011 11:53:41 PM 
C Money wrote:

And THIS is the inherent problem with the BCS. We've taken objective results (wins and losses) that are necessarily judged subjectively (ugly win, pretty loss, strength of schedule, etc., etc.) and tried to force it back into a formulized result in order to give it a sense of objectivity so the powers-that-be can pat themselves on the back and say, "We're so fair it's awesome," while lighting their Cubans with ESPN's hundred dollar bills. At least with the old poll-based system, everyone understood that it was a subjective system. And this year, Toledo can claim to be Cat4ever's MAC champion, based on his subjective criteria.



But...the BCS standings are largely determined by subjectivity -- AP and coaches polls. Sportswriters and coaches subjectively rank teams based on ugly wins, pretty losses, SOS, etc. and that plays a MAJOR factor in the BCS standings.

Wait, after re-reading your post C-Money, maybe that's what you were getting at? Sorry, it's late and I was watching OSU-Duke while typing. We might be saying the same thing.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/30/2011 1:38:53 AM 
Strange that the complaining here is over Toledo being ranked ahead of NIU, but no one has suggested ranking Buffalo and Ball State ahead of Ohio, even though much of the same logic applies.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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C Money
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ranking the MAC teams
   Posted: 11/30/2011 7:32:11 AM 
OhioStunter wrote:
C Money wrote:

And THIS is the inherent problem with the BCS. We've taken objective results (wins and losses) that are necessarily judged subjectively (ugly win, pretty loss, strength of schedule, etc., etc.) and tried to force it back into a formulized result in order to give it a sense of objectivity so the powers-that-be can pat themselves on the back and say, "We're so fair it's awesome," while lighting their Cubans with ESPN's hundred dollar bills. At least with the old poll-based system, everyone understood that it was a subjective system. And this year, Toledo can claim to be Cat4ever's MAC champion, based on his subjective criteria.



But...the BCS standings are largely determined by subjectivity -- AP and coaches polls. Sportswriters and coaches subjectively rank teams based on ugly wins, pretty losses, SOS, etc. and that plays a MAJOR factor in the BCS standings.

Wait, after re-reading your post C-Money, maybe that's what you were getting at? Sorry, it's late and I was watching OSU-Duke while typing. We might be saying the same thing.



Yes, I think we are saying the same thing.
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