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Topic:  #SaulBall #Year4

Topic:  #SaulBall #Year4
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  #SaulBall #Year4
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:04:48 PM 
The witty one liners are no longer funny when your team gets absolutely manhandled by CMU. That was a complete embarrassment. The highest paid coach in MAC doesn’t get a free pass next season. He has one more year to get to the Big Dance. If not, then after 5 years of #SaulBall it’s time to kickstart the #JeffBoalsEra

Last Edited: 1/2/2018 10:18:14 PM by FearLeon

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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Urban Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:10:06 PM 
That was very painful to watch. I am praying this was a fluke.

URBAN BOBCAT

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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:13:45 PM 
Urban Bobcat wrote:
That was very painful to watch. I am praying this was a fluke.


Scary to think what Buffalo is going to do against Ohio this year.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:14:52 PM 
If the last two games weren't sobering enough, consider this: Miami is probably better than Ohio right now. They just won at BG.

Miami has been an utter dumpster fire for years since Charlie Coles retired, had a disastrous offseason and seemed to have nothing going for them. I genuinely think their program is in better shape than ours right now.

Last Edited: 1/2/2018 9:15:40 PM by Recovering Journalist
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:18:15 PM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
If the last two games weren't sobering enough, consider this: Miami is probably better than Ohio right now. They just won at BG.

Miami has been an utter dumpster fire for years since Charlie Coles retired, had a disastrous offseason and seemed to have nothing going for them. I genuinely think their program is in better shape than ours right now.


I'm mad about tonight's loss too but this is ridiculous. Between Ohio's roster and Miami's, how many Miami players would start?
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OU SLAM
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:19:44 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
Urban Bobcat wrote:
That was very painful to watch. I am praying this was a fluke.


Scary to think what Buffalo is going to do against Ohio this year.


Agree! The game will be over by halftime playing this style of slow paced ball.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:31:35 PM 
What is the definition of Saul ball exactly? Serious question because I've seen the term used quite a bit but have never seen a definitive answer. Thanks.
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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:33:58 PM 
I really don't want to get in the territory of ragging on the recruits who end up choosing Ohio, but there is a lot of talent in 2019 that an attractive mid-major can snag, but I don't exactly see us showering it with offers.

This is Samari Curtis. He averages 29 ppg in a Division 1 conference. His best offers are UC and X. We have beaten schools like these under previous coaches for recruits. We have not offered. http://gwocsports.com/bkPlayerStats.aspx?player=445361

This is Andre Gordon. He averages 27 ppg in that same conference. His only offers are from Kent and Akron. We have not offered. http://gwocsports.com/bkPlayerStats.aspx?player=446422

This is Amari Davis. He averages 22 ppg and shoots over 60% from the field in that same conference (2019 is the year of the GWOC!). He has only three offers, and his best is probably Toledo. We have not offered. http://gwocsports.com/bkPlayerStats.aspx?player=453107

There's a 6'9'' kid at Garfield Heights named Brison Waller. Garfield is coached by our own Sonny Johnson. Garfield is also probably the best team in the state this year and next. Though he is injured now, his best offers are Pitt, Penn State, and Kansas State. Then it's a handful of peer schools. We have not offered.

I don't know what our recruiting strategy is. As you can see, I've highlighted mostly guards, and we have offered Moeller's Miles McBride who is comparable to the three here. Is our strategy to offer one kid and only move to the next when that one drops us?
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PhiTau74
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:40:53 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
What is the definition of Saul ball exactly? Serious question because I've seen the term used quite a bit but have never seen a definitive answer. Thanks.


Saul Ball is having a deceptively decent looking record much like Frank, loaded with cupcake wins, never winning a MAC and never beating a top 50 team.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 9:50:52 PM 
3 or 20 from three with 0 for 11 in the second half. Perhaps just a bad shooting night.

http://www.cmuchippewas.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2017-20...
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 10:14:51 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
The witty one liners are no longer funny when your team gets absolutely manhandled by CMU. That was a complete embarrassment. The highest paid coach in MAC doesn’t get a free pass next season. He has one more year to get to the Big Dance. If not, then after 5 years of #SaulBall it’s time to kickstart the #JeffBoalsEra


I'm glad you've laid down the demands on Bobcat Attack. It comes across like you've had a bone to pick with him since the beginning. For the sake of discussion, when did you get off the O'shea bandwagon? The year after he went to the tournament?

Also, for the record, this program hasn't won at CMU historically, and lost about this bad two years ago in thier barn, and still had a great year. It's one damn game. When it's a trend, we'll have need for concern.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 10:19:51 PM 
#FireSaulHireGroce

Note for the sarcasm challenged: The above can't be taken literally.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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BobcatSports
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 10:20:46 PM 
My 2 cents Dartis/Block HAVE to be far better than what they’ve brought the last 2 games. IF those 2 lay eggs going forward like they did tonite we may pull an 0-fer in the MAC. I get Saul has been kicked in the gonads the last 2 years with Tony and Carter going down with freakish foot injuries. That said the Dartis/Block duo have to greatly carry a lot of water going forward if we have any hope of being competitive going forward. No question we are talent challenged but I thought the strength of the Saul ball type recruit was not the most athletically gifted but fundamentally sound high b-ball IQ types.

The performance the last two games looked like 5 guys from from a pick-up game at Ping. Tons of unforced TO’s-horrid outside shooting-blown lay-ups and god awful FT shooting. Our arrow is most definitely pointing decisively downward.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 10:21:57 PM 
PhiTau74 wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
What is the definition of Saul ball exactly? Serious question because I've seen the term used quite a bit but have never seen a definitive answer. Thanks.


Saul Ball is having a deceptively decent looking record much like Frank, loaded with cupcake wins, never winning a MAC and never beating a top 50 team.


Said Top 50 teams have to schedule Ohio for that to happen. Since it's so common place for MAC teams to do this, let's list out how frequently it has occurred in the conference over the last five years.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Ball State and thier win over Notre Dame this year.

Please, name some other ones for us.
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 10:22:49 PM 
OU_Country wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
The witty one liners are no longer funny when your team gets absolutely manhandled by CMU. That was a complete embarrassment. The highest paid coach in MAC doesn’t get a free pass next season. He has one more year to get to the Big Dance. If not, then after 5 years of #SaulBall it’s time to kickstart the #JeffBoalsEra


I'm glad you've laid down the demands on Bobcat Attack. It comes across like you've had a bone to pick with him since the beginning. For the sake of discussion, when did you get off the O'shea bandwagon? The year after he went to the tournament?

Also, for the record, this program hasn't won at CMU historically, and lost about this bad two years ago in thier barn, and still had a great year. It's one damn game. When it's a trend, we'll have need for concern.


Check this thread and other threads....doesn't look like I'm the only one who feels the same way about #SaulBall. Year 5 is the biggest of Saul's coaching career....going to be very interesting.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 10:27:45 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
OU_Country wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
The witty one liners are no longer funny when your team gets absolutely manhandled by CMU. That was a complete embarrassment. The highest paid coach in MAC doesn’t get a free pass next season. He has one more year to get to the Big Dance. If not, then after 5 years of #SaulBall it’s time to kickstart the #JeffBoalsEra


I'm glad you've laid down the demands on Bobcat Attack. It comes across like you've had a bone to pick with him since the beginning. For the sake of discussion, when did you get off the O'shea bandwagon? The year after he went to the tournament?

Also, for the record, this program hasn't won at CMU historically, and lost about this bad two years ago in thier barn, and still had a great year. It's one damn game. When it's a trend, we'll have need for concern.


Check this thread and other threads....doesn't look like I'm the only one who feels the same way about #SaulBall. Year 5 is the biggest of Saul's coaching career....going to be very interesting.


I'm inclined to see how the next two months play our before demanding such things and agreeing with those statements. From my chair, it looks more like the results that came from the 2011-2013 seasons have created an unrealistic expectation in some cases.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 10:40:49 PM 
FearLeon wrote:


Check this thread and other threads....doesn't look like I'm the only one who feels the same way about #SaulBall. Year 5 is the biggest of Saul's coaching career....going to be very interesting.


I like Saul because he's genuinely likeable and seems to do things the right way. That said, I fully agree that more mediocrity regardless of excuses won't cut it in 2018-2019. The contract will be up and I don't see how you renew a guy who's top achievement is a MAC Tournament semifinal loss after leading a historically top-tier program in the conference.

It's not about one game. We're looking at a fourth straight disappointing season. I hope this an irrelevant debate and that this team does well enough next season that he's renewed, but I do think 2018-2019 is make-or-break.
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NashvilleKat
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 10:52:25 PM 
Everyone talks about Frank's scheduling, cupcake wins etc vs. basketball. Frank took over a program which had a decade of 17 wins and 89 losses(Cleve and Lichtenberg) and 4 years of Knorr. (11 and 35). Saul took over a program that was 2 years removed from a sweet sixteen. Discuss.
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/2/2018 10:56:25 PM 
OU_Country wrote:

I'm inclined to see how the next two months play our before demanding such things and agreeing with those statements. From my chair, it looks more like the results that came from the 2011-2013 seasons have created an unrealistic expectation in some cases.


Do you think Schaus' expectations were unrealistic when he made Saul the highest-paid coach in the conference?
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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/3/2018 12:46:21 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
FearLeon wrote:


Check this thread and other threads....doesn't look like I'm the only one who feels the same way about #SaulBall. Year 5 is the biggest of Saul's coaching career....going to be very interesting.


I like Saul because he's genuinely likeable and seems to do things the right way. That said, I fully agree that more mediocrity regardless of excuses won't cut it in 2018-2019. The contract will be up and I don't see how you renew a guy who's top achievement is a MAC Tournament semifinal loss after leading a historically top-tier program in the conference.

It's not about one game. We're looking at a fourth straight disappointing season. I hope this an irrelevant debate and that this team does well enough next season that he's renewed, but I do think 2018-2019 is make-or-break.


Agree. And agree with the Block and Dartis comments - they can't be laying eggs....And Taylor better Man Up quick

RS Bobcat

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/3/2018 8:10:15 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
FearLeon wrote:


Check this thread and other threads....doesn't look like I'm the only one who feels the same way about #SaulBall. Year 5 is the biggest of Saul's coaching career....going to be very interesting.


I like Saul because he's genuinely likeable and seems to do things the right way. That said, I fully agree that more mediocrity regardless of excuses won't cut it in 2018-2019. The contract will be up and I don't see how you renew a guy who's top achievement is a MAC Tournament semifinal loss after leading a historically top-tier program in the conference.

It's not about one game. We're looking at a fourth straight disappointing season. I hope this an irrelevant debate and that this team does well enough next season that he's renewed, but I do think 2018-2019 is make-or-break.


I'm genuinely curious what your expectations were by the middle of Year 4 given the circumstances thrown at this team.

Year 1: Bean show. System was never going to work with a guy like that, although he and Mo had their moments.

Year 2: See pretty good progress, led my MAC POTY Tony Campbell. Still needed more pieces, but they turned around the season's prior debacle.

Year 3: Team loses MAC POTY midseason, has to totally readjust the gameplan to basically revolve around a starting true freshman big and they make it to the MAC semis. Yeah, they probably should have at least made it to the MAC final if not for some questionable plays by an All-MAC PG.

Year 4: Team doesn't get 5th year granted to Campbell, which was probably expected, but the coaching staff still held a scholarship open for him just in case. Team then loses All-MAC PG to grad transfer and has to learn on the fly with a starting freshman PG. Team is ravaged by injuries, including a Preseason All-MAC big who was going to be the focal point of the offense. Team fights hard through non-conference play and comes out over .500.



Like I said above, I'm pretty ticked about the beat down last night too. But depending on your expectations and the reality of what has happened to this team in 3.5 years, I'm not ready to throw the coach out the door.
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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/3/2018 8:14:44 AM 
What teams, historically, can you tell me have lost what would be their top two players (by a wide margin) going into the season and still won consistently? People can gripe all they want about the product on the court, but when you pluck away your star senior PG and have to rely on two TRUE FRESHMEN to fill his role, then lose your best post player to injury for essentially the whole season, I'm just not sure what you expect. Jaaron put us in a huge hole leaving and Jason's injury was probably the last nail in the coffin. The hope was, in my opinion, Jason Carter comes back for MAC play and helps stabilize the team and right the ship. Now it looks like that's not happening. What coach would save us from losing in this situation? John Groce couldn't even win conference road games with HEALTHY lineups. Remember that?

Last Edited: 1/3/2018 8:15:37 AM by 100%Cat
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Recovering Journalist
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/3/2018 8:22:30 AM 
GoCats105 wrote:

I'm genuinely curious what your expectations were by the middle of Year 4 given the circumstances thrown at this team.

Year 1: Bean show. System was never going to work with a guy like that, although he and Mo had their moments.

Year 2: See pretty good progress, led my MAC POTY Tony Campbell. Still needed more pieces, but they turned around the season's prior debacle.

Year 3: Team loses MAC POTY midseason, has to totally readjust the gameplan to basically revolve around a starting true freshman big and they make it to the MAC semis. Yeah, they probably should have at least made it to the MAC final if not for some questionable plays by an All-MAC PG.

Year 4: Team doesn't get 5th year granted to Campbell, which was probably expected, but the coaching staff still held a scholarship open for him just in case. Team then loses All-MAC PG to grad transfer and has to learn on the fly with a starting freshman PG. Team is ravaged by injuries, including a Preseason All-MAC big who was going to be the focal point of the offense. Team fights hard through non-conference play and comes out over .500.



Like I said above, I'm pretty ticked about the beat down last night too. But depending on your expectations and the reality of what has happened to this team in 3.5 years, I'm not ready to throw the coach out the door.


I'm genuinely curious how many excuses you're ready to accept. I don't want to call out specific players, but check out the grid on the recruiting page. Those are the kids on scholarship. Generously, a couple of those are bad decisions. Less charitably, a significant percentage are. Those are all his kids. Several of the others on that grid have not developed much in the time here.

I'm not discounting the bad luck, but he's made his own luck too, and ultimately results matter. I'm not ready to throw anyone out the door either (and let's be real - the school can't afford to anyway). I want to see SP succeed, but he'd better do so next season because it's a contract year, and I'd be deeply unhappy keeping him based on the present track record and trajectory of the program.
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Bobcat1998
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/3/2018 8:25:19 AM 
I was very proud of our effort early in the year and we were without Carter. We were also solid without Dartis or Mickle at the times when they sat out. We were the hustle team. I just don't know where that attitude has gone. There is no way CMU is as good as Western Kentucky or Indiana State. We hung with Marshall who is much better than CMU. I just don't get it. I feel like body language wise Butler is going the Culver route. I feel like Dartis is too nice sometimes. I was hoping he'd get that killer instinct. Block has regressed since the Indiana State game. Gollon is regressing as well. I feel like Kirk is turning into a special player but is getting no help and I still like Laster and Mickle as seniors but they're not "leaders." This is on Saul when the effort isn't there. We will be lucky to win 2 games in the MAC if we don't have effort because the rest of the league seems very solid effort-wise.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: #SaulBall
   Posted: 1/3/2018 8:32:14 AM 
Recovering Journalist wrote:
GoCats105 wrote:

I'm genuinely curious what your expectations were by the middle of Year 4 given the circumstances thrown at this team.

Year 1: Bean show. System was never going to work with a guy like that, although he and Mo had their moments.

Year 2: See pretty good progress, led my MAC POTY Tony Campbell. Still needed more pieces, but they turned around the season's prior debacle.

Year 3: Team loses MAC POTY midseason, has to totally readjust the gameplan to basically revolve around a starting true freshman big and they make it to the MAC semis. Yeah, they probably should have at least made it to the MAC final if not for some questionable plays by an All-MAC PG.

Year 4: Team doesn't get 5th year granted to Campbell, which was probably expected, but the coaching staff still held a scholarship open for him just in case. Team then loses All-MAC PG to grad transfer and has to learn on the fly with a starting freshman PG. Team is ravaged by injuries, including a Preseason All-MAC big who was going to be the focal point of the offense. Team fights hard through non-conference play and comes out over .500.



Like I said above, I'm pretty ticked about the beat down last night too. But depending on your expectations and the reality of what has happened to this team in 3.5 years, I'm not ready to throw the coach out the door.


I'm genuinely curious how many excuses you're ready to accept. I don't want to call out specific players, but check out the grid on the recruiting page. Those are the kids on scholarship. Generously, a couple of those are bad decisions. Less charitably, a significant percentage are. Those are all his kids. Several of the others on that grid have not developed much in the time here.

I'm not discounting the bad luck, but he's made his own luck too, and ultimately results matter. I'm not ready to throw anyone out the door either (and let's be real - the school can't afford to anyway). I want to see SP succeed, but he'd better do so next season because it's a contract year, and I'd be deeply unhappy keeping him based on the present track record and trajectory of the program.


Those are fair arguments. I too am concerned with the trajectory, but it just seems like every time the team gets any kind of momentum they get kicked in the gut with an injury or player leaving and that's hard for me to blame on a coaching staff. And yes, there have definitely been some misses in recruiting.

Last Edited: 1/3/2018 8:32:49 AM by GoCats105
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