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Topic: Where is College ball headed?

Topic: Where is College ball headed?

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bornacatfan
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Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:27:37 AM

Don't want to muck up the FBI thread as it needs to be accessible to following the hits as they keep coming.

Discussion of philosophy based on the future in this thread and keep breaking news on the other if you would please.

Starting with the crime. It is an interesting conundrum

finnOhio wrote:

I think of a crime as something that harms someone or something. I can�t seem to figure out who is harmed in this situation.

Interesting perspective. Who would be harmed? If this was similar where a school official was paid to accept certain textbooks or vendors OR a county trustee was paid to use a certain Paving company the folks harmed are? So is bribery and deals made by a coach do not have the same criminal content because the taxpayers or consumers do not exist.

I think the consumers of the sport, buying tickets, jersies, gear are the ones harmed. It is a confusing idea you put forth. Dealing in selling the services of one human to a Coach of a university is interesting on the legal front. Where the money is going is another. Selling your kid via an agent is a legal question.

Really feel like starting a philosophical thread to keep the other one for reporting the hits as they keep on coming.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

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bornacatfan
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:35:17 AM

cbus cat fan wrote:

Good grief, the Captain Renault's of the college basketball world ("I am shocked there is gambling going on--Casablanca film reference) are out in force. However, the most egregious proposition they have is to just allow it to continue. They seem to feel that since some people are cheating and the NCAA makes a lot of money why can't everyone get on the take. Kinda like the scene in the Godfather where Don Barzini complains to Don Corleone that he should share the judges he has in his back pocket, so that the other families can draw from the same well and wet their beaks a little too!

90+% of college athletes will never play a professional sport. With the cost of college these days, I am sure most college students especially at expensive private schools would love to have no debt when they graduate. However, every time we have one of these scandals emerge a group of folks come forward saying paying players-- that will solve the problem they say. Kinda like the folks that advocate for legalized prostitution, and then when it leads to human sex trafficking, they like Captain Renault are shocked!

I would strongly encourage these naive folks not to take telemarketers up on their once in a lifetime cruises, buy any bridges for sale--especially in Brooklyn. Finally for heaven's sake, never reply to e-mails supposedly from Aunt Fanny or sweet cousin Meldahide asking money be sent to a Nigerian bank account, because their safari tour has been held ransom by a bunch of elephant poachers.

The simple solution to this problem is to put the hammer down on these sleazy coaches, agents, shoe company reps etc. If we don't, we can kiss college sports goodbye as we know it. I love the traditions of March Madness and the college football bowl season, it will all be gone if these sleazy agents, coaches, shoe company reps etc aren't given time in the Big House to help them see the error of their ways!

By and large the Coaches I listened to yesterday were saying "we just want it cleaned up". I am sure many have been sucked into compromised ethics just trying to keep up but there are a silent minority just trying to run a clean program and wish they did not have to compete at every tournament in Summer and go through agents and handlers denying access to the kids without money changing hands

bornacatfan
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 10:39:11 AM

Greenberg: 'This is the culture of college athletics' http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=22554863

Vitale

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=22555242

Both have views but they give a good background of the morass of recruiting

Brand name NCAA teams in middle of FBI investigation http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=22554015

Last Edited: 2/24/2018 10:49:44 AM by bornacatfan

cbus cat fan
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 11:01:08 AM

Bornacat, just want to follow up on something you said about coaches wanting it cleaned up. It has been a few years since I was a high school coach. However, I have retained a few contacts with some college coaches I have met through the years, a couple being MAC coaches and surprisingly a couple of pretty marquee guys who have never once discussed strategy, but always integrity and honor. The coaching fraternity is very tight and protective, but it also is very leery of those who they feel are "slimes and sleezes" as one coach told me. Dick Vitale's tweets last night and this morning about Sean Miller and other coaches are pretty telling. He is about as well connected and respected as one can get.

bornacatfan
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 11:46:01 AM

I listened to Dakich talk to Tim Miles at Nebraska. What you are saying is pretty true. Dak took a lot of heat for his situation at IU where he was pissed off about Sampson, McCallum and Senderhoff and the things he refused to participate in...he then went to BG and ran a clean program. WHen he took WVU he signed and then was told how it was to be and wanted no part of the crooked stuff going on there. He left. Listening to him and Miles i understand what you are saying as Nebby is in the same boat as most MID majors. Trying to run a clean program while the top of the league is using other methods.

https://omny.fm/shows/the-dan-dakich-show/tim-miles-we-ar...

A lot more is going to come out as this ONE agent becomes dozens and more is uncovered. I can think of a few guys shredding documents and destroying computers and tax records as I listen to this going on this morning

Last Edited: 2/24/2018 11:52:34 AM by bornacatfan

doubledribble
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 12:04:08 PM

Borna, Seth has a great view of this entire mess from various "altitudes". He played his high school basketball in a league of decent competition on Long Island. He attended Five Star before his senior year and got his first glimpse of the recruiting world there. We started recruting him after seeing him at that camp. He was a mid-major level prospect, and after a long recruiting process, he decided to come with us and play for Al Lobalbo. His time with Al served him very well as he learned the game from a real mastermind. He had a great coaching career that included multiple coach of the year honors while at Va. Tech in the ACC. His experience of being recruited (cleanly) at a mid major level, and playing at that level, gave him a view from that altitude. His experience in the ACC completed his view from all "heights". People who are following this entire mess would be doing their understanding of what is happening a favor if they would listen to what Seth has to say. His view is as accurate as you will ever find.....anywhere.

Maddog13
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 12:04:42 PM

Shame on the NBA and NFL for using amateur athletics as their own minor leagues/wasteland of younger men, though it seems as though the NBA appears to be creating something of a minor/developmental league, but without big enough salaries apparently to be competitive with what college players are now being payed under the table. ($100,000 payment to secure a young prospect?!?!) It would be interesting to see if the presence of minor league baseball has kept college baseball a little more honest and cleaner.

I think one of the big casualties of all this will be the end of the NCAA as we know it. What the FBI is now turning up certainly depicts the NCAA as being the ineffective organization that we all suspected it of being. The NCAA commissioner's claims of wanting to bring integrity back to amateur athletics sounds both hollow and hypocritical, especially considering how much money is being generated for the schools and the others that are benefiting from all of this madness (and it isn't even March yet).

If the NCAA does, in fact, remain intact, I would like to see big penalties leveled against schools when a player fails to stick around for the their full eligibility, especially if they go "pro." Perhaps, this would put pressure on coaches to recruit student athletes instead of athletes pretending to be students.

bornacatfan
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 12:59:03 PM

Maddog13 wrote:

\ but without big enough salaries apparently to be competitive with what college players are now being payed under the table. ($100,000 payment to secure a young prospect?!?!)

Curious. Do you think the athlete actually saw any or much of that 100K? If it is the current frosh I have heard from 8 to 36K being discussed as a loan.

Maddog13 wrote:

I think one of the big casualties of all this will be the end of the NCAA as we know it. What the FBI is now turning up certainly depicts the NCAA as being the ineffective organization that we all suspected it of being. The NCAA commissioner's claims of wanting to bring integrity back to amateur athletics sounds both hollow and hypocritical, especially considering how much money is being generated for the schools and the others that are benefiting from all of this madness (and it isn't even March yet).

Interesting take. The BIGGEST casualty would be the thousands of athlete who are enjoying playing for a school and getting financial aid in trade for their efforts IMO.

Interesting that the schools making the most money through shares for tournament appearances are the ones who have largely created the recruiting mess and supported getting athletes through intermediaries. Aside from Rob up at EMU I do not think the MAC coaching ranks have a thing to worry about from the FBI

Maddog13 wrote:

If the NCAA does, in fact, remain intact, I would like to see big penalties leveled against schools when a player fails to stick around for the their full eligibility, especially if they go "pro." Perhaps, this would put pressure on coaches to recruit student athletes instead of athletes pretending to be students.

That's just not gonna happen and is a bit unrealistic. I have always been a "let em go pro and who cares if they fail" kind of guy. Who cares if a kid is from an affluent suburb or the inner city? Why are we protecting a kid from making a bad decision or trying to keep a kid in class that does not want to be there? Many 18 year olds, self included, made bad decisions regarding school and have had to work to make up for them.

dd....thanks for the background Greenberg and Dakich have been doing a fairly compelling podcast for a couple of years that explores a ton of stuff. I like Greenberg's open and honest approach. Watching him and Bilas who had stood behind Sean Miller earlier this year on GameDay was painful when discussing the findings https://player.fm/series/courtside-with-greenberg-dakich-...

Last Edited: 2/24/2018 1:08:09 PM by bornacatfan

OUPride
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 1:10:21 PM

Maddog13 wrote:

I think college hockey would also be good to look at. Top college players have already been drafted by NHL teams while playing college.

As for recruiting "student-athletes," that's never going to happen. Everyone makes significant compromises in bringing athletes onto campus. Don't believe it, just look through the Ohio or Miami media guide and see how many Sports Management majors are on the football and basketball teams. The only variable is how large the gap is between the average freshman SAT and the average football/basketball SAT, and that's driven by how selective the school is overall not some illusory integrity on the part of individual schools or coaches. OSU or Michigan's 850 SAT five star player is Ohio or Miami's 850 SAT three star player.

What I would like to see is for this to be the end of the one and done era. Let kids enter the draft out of high school, BUT if they don't make an NBA team, college is no longer an option. They go to the D-league.

rpbobcat
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/24/2018 4:02:02 PM

Couple of things:

1.Finn:
Using your definition of a crime ,one could argue that ,prostitution, gambling and, in many cases,bribery shouldn't be crimes.

2.OUPride:
There's been a lot of talk on sports radio about dropping any age restrictions on kids entering the NBA.

Most pundits believe the age restriction should be dropped.

That should reduce or even eliminate "one and done".

If a kid wants to try for the NBA after high school,let him.
If he does,and fails,its on him.
No chance at college.

The biggest concern is mental maturity.
Even if they are ready physically,most 18-19 year olds aren't ready mentally for the NBA.

The consensus is that any kid who goes to the NBA right after high school should be required to spend 1 season in the "D" league.

bornacatfan
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/25/2018 11:31:23 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

Couple of things:

If a kid wants to try for the NBA after high school,let him.
If he does,and fails,its on him.
No chance at college.

The biggest concern is mental maturity.
Even if they are ready physically,most 18-19 year olds aren't ready mentally for the NBA.

The consensus is that any kid who goes to the NBA right after high school should be required to spend 1 season in the "D" league.

THis certainly sums it up. College coaches come into your living room and become part of the family. John Rhodes and Kevin Kuwick are always welcome here. Ku (and a couple of good BA friends) showed up in my hospital room when I woke up from an 8 day Coma. Groce, Holtmann and Ford are family as well. Those guys make promises. If you are around the NCAA much you will find coaches take those promises and relationships very seriously. Players have that bond and mentorship for life.

By skipping school to go pro an 18 year old is now living out on his own and making his way without much support, traveling with grown men/NBA vets. If he is lucky he can assimilate and find mentors in that group. (I say this as I was living on my own 8 blocks from Wrigley Feild at age 17). It is tough for a kid who, for the most part, has been raised every step of the way without responsibilities except to play hoops (mah baby gonna be a star!).

Most kids in hoops playing at that elite level have grown up as a star with everyone around them getting them places, taking care of everything. Big shock for most just going to college but still having folks/staff tell you when and where to be, folks doing your laundry, making sure you get to class and telling you what books, clothes and gear to bring every day. It is a MUCH Bigger shock skipping that and going to the Chicago Stadium on your own, finding a place to stay in the city, getting to the airports, meals and shopping on your own, finding and paying lawyers, accountants and figuring out what to do when your cable bill comes or the Xbox breaks down. Most 19 year olds are not going to do that well on their own. Fortunately for most, Mom can quit her job and come take care of her neal ticket....unless he is on a D league salary.

allen
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 2:51:00 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

We don't echo this same sentiment for baseball or hockey. We don't call them meal tickets, we call them the sons of Johnny Lunchbuckets. This all started 30 years ago. I remember Esteban Weaver being offered a $200,000 shoe contract out of high school. He never did anything basketball wise. The AAU circuit is a joke as well. Scouts pay thousands to get the inside info on kids. They have the Adidas and Nike tournaments and pay for the kids family to travel with their kids. It is awful now, kids have to play in summer tournaments to get offers. How do you expect kids from lower income backgrounds to travel to all of these tournaments. The agents try to give them loans to guarantee that they sign with them. This happens in baseball and hockey, but the demographics are a lot different.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

TWT
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 7:48:28 AM

I'm not following the details of the muck. But what occurred to me is the witch hunt is a once a decade mop up of corruption before we get back to business as usual most likely. Its like the periodic mop up of terrorists in the middle east the U.S. is now doing every once in a while once the problem gets bad enough. Cheating will never go away in basketball entirely because of the pressure to compete on coaching staffs.

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TWT
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 7:55:05 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

rpbobcat wrote:

This to me speaks of the integrity of mid-major basketball compared to the power guys. I'm not saying there is zero corruption in mid major basketball but its not the same pressure to win and its more like family.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
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allen
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 8:33:40 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Very true

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

rpbobcat
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 9:02:53 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

I think this time maybe somewhat different,if individuals end up paying significant fines,or going to jail.

Kevin Finnegan
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 9:24:05 AM

rpbobcat wrote:

Couple of things:

1.Finn:
Using your definition of a crime ,one could argue that ,prostitution, gambling and, in many cases,bribery shouldn't be crimes.

I'd argue that prostitution and gambling do have some victims, but I could also see an argument that they shouldn't be crimes. Bribery, quite often, has many victims. This is part of the foundation of many organized crime syndicates.

bornacatfan wrote:

I think the consumers of the sport, buying tickets, jerseys, gear are the ones harmed. It is a confusing idea you put forth. Dealing in selling the services of one human to a Coach of a university is interesting on the legal front. Where the money is going is another. Selling your kid via an agent is a legal question.

The interesting part here is that we are acknowledging that this is a consumer product. However, I cannot think of another consumer product where the creators/inventors/designers of the product are not financially reimbursed. Or, for another perspective, in the capitalist society, how are there not bonuses/incentives for helping the bottom line? When we say that a college scholarship is your pay, realize that that means that OHIO 'paid' DJ Cooper the same amount that they are 'paying' Ellis Dozier. I'd love to know how many of us on this site would be happy being the absolute best at our company and making the exact same amount as someone who is rarely working. Then, when we say that, well, DJ is having a better opportunity marketing himself for the next level, we are admitting that it is basically an internship to eventually get paid for our services. Yet, we then get mad if a player goes for a more marketable internship, e.g. Simmons to Michigan.

Also, how is the consumer harmed by a kid getting paid under the table? Does it harm those who have a false narrative that these athletes are really students? Did anybody really believe that Derrick Rose was signing up for four years of college?

C Money
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 9:50:28 AM

Why don't more of the top recruits go to Europe for a year of legitimate pro ball before going to the NBA?

(I ask that question as someone who has no knowledge of how the Euro leagues work other than DJ Cooper tried to become a Bosnian citizen.)

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 10:57:37 AM

C Money wrote:

I suspect the answer is that it's an untrodden path and there remain a lot of questions as to the impact it'll have on their draft status. I think most recruits aren't yet ready to compete in the best leagues in Europe and other leagues, like China, don't offer recruits enough certainty in terms of draft status. If somebody goes to China and plays fine -- they don't light the world on fire, but put up decent stats -- how does the league weigh that against the known-known of a guy who puts up similar numbers at Kentucky?

To me, the simple solution is for the NCAA to lift the restriction on players earning money off of their likeness off the court. What harm does that do? If Dominos thinks Jimmer Fredette sells pizzas, how does it harm the NCAA if Dominos pays him to do so? If anything, it helps them by making him even more prominent nationally. At a local level, is it such a terrible thing is a car dealership in Columbus wants to pay Tyrelle Pryor to be on their billboards? And offers him use of a car?

GoCats105
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 11:03:12 AM

C Money wrote:

I'm assuming because of the exposure. You're more likely to be seen and make a name for yourself here than over there.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 11:34:51 AM

finnOhio wrote:

. . . Also, how is the consumer harmed by a kid getting paid under the table? Does it harm those who have a false narrative that these athletes are really students? Did anybody really believe that Derrick Rose was signing up for four years of college?

If they aren't really students, I want 'em out of here right now. And, let's get rid of the one-and-done crapola. We are, after all, running a university not an athletic factory. Athletics are secondary. IMHO, they are an important part of a university, but they are not a core function.

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Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 11:46:50 AM

I will say this: I am all for these kids getting paid. Honestly, why does Mark Zuckerburg get to keep all his money from Harvard when Harvard gave him a place to study along with space to utilize their bandwidths. If a kid invents the cure to cancer, does he have to give all his money to the university? Precisely.

However, they better be taxed on it like there's no tomorrow. The pay rates for these kids will be awfully high to say the least. These brats want to open pandora's box they can have at it. That and they better bring back letting kids going straight to the pros out of high school. That's why this whole problem began. Anyone with a pulse could have seen this coming when the one-and-done rule was put into effect.

OhioStunter
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 12:59:25 PM

Years ago, I was on the "athletes are paid with scholarships and that should be enough" train.

As the Northwestern unionization lawsuit played out and as I dug more into NCAA finances, I've actually changed my thinking about paying athletes.

However, paying athletes could incur more issues/trouble that we currently see now. Is there a flat pay scale -- between schools and between sports? What's to stop the problems happening now (paying under the table to recruit) even if there's a salary system in place?

I don't have answers, but the future of the NCAA sure looks dicey. I think you may see more of the big conferences splitting off from the NCAA to negotiate their own business deals and handling more of the money directly. I think that has already happened with the college football playoff system.

OU_Country
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 1:12:39 PM

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

You and I have talked about my feelings on it - I'm not for them getting paid. If I wanted to watch pro ball, I'd watch the NBA, and I don't very often. Beating the dead horse one more time, they are compensated - in the form of no student loan debt at the end of 4-5 years.

That being said, respectfully, I disagree that the one-and-done caused this. It probably didn't help it, but this sort of business has been happening a lot longer than. The idea of the 'hundred dollar handshake' didn't start with sneaker companies and one-and-done's.

To me, the largest issue in college sports is TV Money - which might be going away gradually in the future as viewing habits change. While in some cases, the TV dollars are a good thing, it's also fed to the widening gap of the haves and have-nots. Larger TV dollars meant larger coaches salaries, larger budgets, and the sudden perception that players should also be paid because so much money is being spent. I see why it's being brought up, but unless there's a sudden separation of revenue sports and non-revenue sports, where a court allows it to happen, the idea of paying players ain't gonna happen. There's too much disparity in money being made at the different schools and conferences. And then there's the squashing of the "student athlete" thing that would have to happen for it to occur. Athletes would have to become employees, and that isn't likely to occur soon either in my opinion.

GoCats105
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RE: Where is College ball headed?

Posted: 2/26/2018 2:06:53 PM

Since I work in Finance and I see this stuff every day why not try something out of the box:

Instead of paying the athletes, set up "life after athletics" funds for each of them. A sort of, retirement plan or pension if you will. All NCAA D-I athletes are eligible under a few stipulations. Number one being, if you leave early to go pro, you don't get to participate in the fund anymore and you don't get paid.

I realize this doesn't solve the problem of athletes wanting to be paid "right now," but how many of these athletes are never going to play a sport again? 75%? 80%? 90%? It would be nice to have a cushion to fall on once they get out in the real world.

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