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Topic:  Zion Williamson

Topic:  Zion Williamson
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 6:43:04 AM 
With the Knicks in the hunt for Zion Williamson,his injury has been the hot topic on sports radio out here.

Most of the sports pundits, as well as a number of current Knicks, feel he should sit out the rest of the season,to protect his draft status.

His injury has also reignited,big time,the one and done debate.

The feeling is that this injury may force the NBA to change their policy on allowing kids to go to the NBA right from high school.

Based on comments from a current players,they are split about whether,if they had the option,they would have gone directly into the NBA.

The feeling is that,unlike football,there are some kids,like Williamson,capable of going directly to the NBA from high school.

Going to be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Day Tripper
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 7:21:43 AM 
I am just tired of the NBA and NFL using college sports as their minor leagues. It used to be that college students were called scholar-athletes, now its more athletes that "play school". If they are not here to get an education and a degree, why are they here? Why take classes that don't amount to any thing just to stay eligible? Go play in the G-league or AAF if you want to be paid to play.
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OU_Country
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Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 9:52:52 AM 
There has apparently been discussion about the NBA (prior to Zion's shoe mishap) working toward making 18 years the age limit for their draft. I saw something across the 'ticker' on the game I was watching last night.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 9:53:59 AM 
The players' union is discussing lowering the age limit from 19 to 18.
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Bobcatzblitz
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 9:56:56 AM 
Day Tripper wrote:
I am just tired of the NBA and NFL using college sports as their minor leagues. It used to be that college students were called scholar-athletes, now its more athletes that "play school". If they are not here to get an education and a degree, why are they here? Why take classes that don't amount to any thing just to stay eligible? Go play in the G-league or AAF if you want to be paid to play.



You folks that are always just "tired" and at "wits end" with the NFL and NBA's process of evaluating prospective employees always seem to only exclusively have this issue with the NFL and NBA and not any other work industry or sports leagues....it's not hard to figure why though. Cheers.

Last Edited: 2/22/2019 9:58:05 AM by Bobcatzblitz
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100%Cat
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Post Count: 2,626

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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 10:37:26 AM 
Maybe I'm looking at this completely wrong, but I don't see why it's so unfair for a business (like the NBA) to have minimum requirements for employees (players). If I want a job at a business, and maybe I am completely capable of doing the job but I don't meet the minimum requirements to get an interview, I won't get an interview. It's not an unfair practice, I didn't meet the minimum requirements. How is the NBA setting an age requirement any more unfair than setting a Masters degree requirement for a higher education job? Is it horribly unfair to those without a Masters who can't get the job? If I can do the job now, but you're going to make me sit through two years of a Masters program so I have the piece of paper that gets me qualified, is that OK?
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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 11:58:00 AM 
Day Tripper wrote:
I am just tired of the NBA and NFL using college sports as their minor leagues. It used to be that college students were called scholar-athletes, now its more athletes that "play school". If they are not here to get an education and a degree, why are they here? Why take classes that don't amount to any thing just to stay eligible? Go play in the G-league or AAF if you want to be paid to play.


I agree with this to some extent. However, on the other side of the coin, there are those athletes who come to college to "play school," but then discover that education is a good thing and blossom out as scholars and obtain a degree in a subject that really helps them in future life. Without that athletic scholarship the kid would never have even entered the ivy walls. So, in my mind, it's kind of a mixed bag.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Jim Bob
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 12:18:24 PM 
Who is Zion Williamson?
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 12:23:51 PM 
Jim Bob wrote:
Who is Zion Williamson?


Freshman phenom at Duke.

He got injured when his shoe "exploded" in a game this week.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 12:46:44 PM 
I can see why a football player would skip a bowl game and concentrate on the draft. Unless you're on a playoff contender, the only thing a bowl game does for you is maybe get you on the #9 team instead of the #10 team in the final poll. But basketball is different. Duke will likely be playing for a national championship this year. That can make a big difference in not only where he might be drafted but also the contract he might get.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 1:15:51 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
I can see why a football player would skip a bowl game and concentrate on the draft. Unless you're on a playoff contender, the only thing a bowl game does for you is maybe get you on the #9 team instead of the #10 team in the final poll. But basketball is different. Duke will likely be playing for a national championship this year. That can make a big difference in not only where he might be drafted but also the contract he might get.


Feeling out here is that, whether he plays in the NCAA or not,he's the #1 pick in the draft.
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 2:14:22 PM 
100%Cat wrote:
Maybe I'm looking at this completely wrong, but I don't see why it's so unfair for a business (like the NBA) to have minimum requirements for employees (players). If I want a job at a business, and maybe I am completely capable of doing the job but I don't meet the minimum requirements to get an interview, I won't get an interview. It's not an unfair practice, I didn't meet the minimum requirements. How is the NBA setting an age requirement any more unfair than setting a Masters degree requirement for a higher education job? Is it horribly unfair to those without a Masters who can't get the job? If I can do the job now, but you're going to make me sit through two years of a Masters program so I have the piece of paper that gets me qualified, is that OK?


That should be the decision of each individual franchise to decide if Zion Williamson is qualified to play for their team at the age of 18. Not an edict from on high.

My employer gets to decide if I need a college degree to work for them.

The only places where it's appropriate for there to be mandated education or training is if the public welfare or health is on the line.

Zion Williamson playing for the Knicks or Cavs this year isn't putting me or you at danger like a doctor or a lawyer needing appropriate training.

What is happening now is paternalism of the most galling sort. The limitation of a human being who is an adult, with the right to go overseas and give his life in a conflict but not the right to ply his trade with his own God-given talents.

It's a sham. It's sad. It goes against everything this country was built on.

Let every adult sink or swim on their own abilities, their own decisions and their own plans.

If we're not willing to do that, we need to raise the age we consider a human being an adult to 21 or beyond. I'm open to that. But the military is going to be a bit miffed when we take the ability for them to recruit 18, 19 and 20 year olds and send them around the globe.

Last Edited: 2/22/2019 2:18:53 PM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 3:30:13 PM 
Brian Smith wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
Maybe I'm looking at this completely wrong, but I don't see why it's so unfair for a business (like the NBA) to have minimum requirements for employees (players). If I want a job at a business, and maybe I am completely capable of doing the job but I don't meet the minimum requirements to get an interview, I won't get an interview. It's not an unfair practice, I didn't meet the minimum requirements. How is the NBA setting an age requirement any more unfair than setting a Masters degree requirement for a higher education job? Is it horribly unfair to those without a Masters who can't get the job? If I can do the job now, but you're going to make me sit through two years of a Masters program so I have the piece of paper that gets me qualified, is that OK?


That should be the decision of each individual franchise to decide if Zion Williamson is qualified to play for their team at the age of 18. Not an edict from on high.

My employer gets to decide if I need a college degree to work for them.

The only places where it's appropriate for there to be mandated education or training is if the public welfare or health is on the line.

Zion Williamson playing for the Knicks or Cavs this year isn't putting me or you at danger like a doctor or a lawyer needing appropriate training.

What is happening now is paternalism of the most galling sort. The limitation of a human being who is an adult, with the right to go overseas and give his life in a conflict but not the right to ply his trade with his own God-given talents.

It's a sham. It's sad. It goes against everything this country was built on.

Let every adult sink or swim on their own abilities, their own decisions and their own plans.

If we're not willing to do that, we need to raise the age we consider a human being an adult to 21 or beyond. I'm open to that. But the military is going to be a bit miffed when we take the ability for them to recruit 18, 19 and 20 year olds and send them around the globe.



I'll respectfully disagree. I think it's really easy to fall into the trap of looking at a handful of unicorns each year like Zion and generalize across the roughly 4,511 NCAA basketball players in the country. The age minimum for the NBA impacts how many of them? And in what way are they truly being harmed if they have to play one year of basketball at a place of higher learning with free tuition where they can grow and mature...and potentially GROW their draft stock? I happen to think this year at Duke has greatly helped Zion Williamson. I was listening to ESPN or Fox Sports (sorry, don't remember which, I hit them both) recently and they mentioned scouting services had Zion more like a 5th-6th pick ranking coming into this year, while he is now more or less a unanimous #1. How much of a difference is that? Check out the rookie pay scale.

Last year, the #1 pick first year salary was: $5,855,200

The #5 pick's salary: $3,841,000

Using Zion as your case example, based on that alone, he could have personally profited slightly over $2 million in his first year in the NBA alone based off of this season and his performance at Duke. Go even farther and look past the first year at the 2nd and 3rd year salaries. The difference between the #1 pick and the #5 pick over three years of salary is over $7 million.

Last Edited: 2/22/2019 3:31:24 PM by 100%Cat
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Andrew Ruck
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Location: Columbus, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 3:39:46 PM 
The narrative that he should sit out even if healthy...much like the narrative that football players should sit out of bowl games...drives me up the damn wall. Yeah yeah protected future earnings and all that, blah blah. Where do you draw that line? When do you start benching high school players? Should middle school players bother playing dangerous unpredictable games or just do carefully designed workouts and drills? Players play.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 4:21:46 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
The narrative that he should sit out even if healthy...much like the narrative that football players should sit out of bowl games...drives me up the damn wall. Yeah yeah protected future earnings and all that, blah blah. Where do you draw that line? When do you start benching high school players? Should middle school players bother playing dangerous unpredictable games or just do carefully designed workouts and drills? Players play.


I agree. It's one of those situations where the slippery slope argument isn't wrong.

I could definitely see the top high school player, especially in football, sitting out his senior year of high school if he was just a few months away from a big payday.

If you're a great athlete you should want to compete. Sure, take as many precautions as you can, but still compete. Like you said, you're just as likely to hurt yourself in a drill as in a game.

Last Edited: 2/22/2019 4:22:36 PM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 4:26:30 PM 
100%Cat wrote:
Brian Smith wrote:
100%Cat wrote:
Maybe I'm looking at this completely wrong, but I don't see why it's so unfair for a business (like the NBA) to have minimum requirements for employees (players). If I want a job at a business, and maybe I am completely capable of doing the job but I don't meet the minimum requirements to get an interview, I won't get an interview. It's not an unfair practice, I didn't meet the minimum requirements. How is the NBA setting an age requirement any more unfair than setting a Masters degree requirement for a higher education job? Is it horribly unfair to those without a Masters who can't get the job? If I can do the job now, but you're going to make me sit through two years of a Masters program so I have the piece of paper that gets me qualified, is that OK?


That should be the decision of each individual franchise to decide if Zion Williamson is qualified to play for their team at the age of 18. Not an edict from on high.

My employer gets to decide if I need a college degree to work for them.

The only places where it's appropriate for there to be mandated education or training is if the public welfare or health is on the line.

Zion Williamson playing for the Knicks or Cavs this year isn't putting me or you at danger like a doctor or a lawyer needing appropriate training.

What is happening now is paternalism of the most galling sort. The limitation of a human being who is an adult, with the right to go overseas and give his life in a conflict but not the right to ply his trade with his own God-given talents.

It's a sham. It's sad. It goes against everything this country was built on.

Let every adult sink or swim on their own abilities, their own decisions and their own plans.

If we're not willing to do that, we need to raise the age we consider a human being an adult to 21 or beyond. I'm open to that. But the military is going to be a bit miffed when we take the ability for them to recruit 18, 19 and 20 year olds and send them around the globe.



I'll respectfully disagree. I think it's really easy to fall into the trap of looking at a handful of unicorns each year like Zion and generalize across the roughly 4,511 NCAA basketball players in the country. The age minimum for the NBA impacts how many of them? And in what way are they truly being harmed if they have to play one year of basketball at a place of higher learning with free tuition where they can grow and mature...and potentially GROW their draft stock? I happen to think this year at Duke has greatly helped Zion Williamson. I was listening to ESPN or Fox Sports (sorry, don't remember which, I hit them both) recently and they mentioned scouting services had Zion more like a 5th-6th pick ranking coming into this year, while he is now more or less a unanimous #1. How much of a difference is that? Check out the rookie pay scale.

Last year, the #1 pick first year salary was: $5,855,200

The #5 pick's salary: $3,841,000

Using Zion as your case example, based on that alone, he could have personally profited slightly over $2 million in his first year in the NBA alone based off of this season and his performance at Duke. Go even farther and look past the first year at the 2nd and 3rd year salaries. The difference between the #1 pick and the #5 pick over three years of salary is over $7 million.


I'll grant that what you are arguing is actually probably best for 95 percent of the athletes.

But I just have this belief that everyone who is an adult should have the right to do stupid, crazy stuff in their pursuit of happiness if that's their whim. There's 18 years where they are hopefully guided by teachers and parents and mentors. If they truly are adults, they need to be allowed to fall flat on their faces.

I'm open to the argument that 18 year olds aren't adults. I honestly don't believe boys are adults until about 26 when their brains finally seem to not cause them to be idiots. (I think it took until I was 28 for me not to be a moron. I've got a one-month old boy who I realized the other day is going to take until I'm like 65 years old before his brain is fully functional. It's gonna be a loooooong slog.) But this is what we've set up adulthood to be.


Last Edited: 2/22/2019 4:30:53 PM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Broomball @ Midnight!
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Location: Jacksonville, FL
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 4:48:54 PM 
The shot-term potential of losing $2-million for anyone projected to be a lottery pick, even a later 1st round pick, for forced to go to an institution of "higher learning" to major in basketball for a semester and a half, taking a full load of fluff classes for the fall term to insure eligibility is ridiculous.

If Zion was in the NBA right now... he'd be a year closer to cashing in on a max deal pushing the $200-million dollar range for 5 years and then be another year younger to re-up again and so on.

The notion that talented teens can earn advanced academic degrees, win olympic gold medals, major tennis tournaments.... and so on, but a 17-year-old basketball prodigy must wait is ridiculous.

When you factor in the sleazy AAU and summer camp industries into the "amateur" hoops equation how can anyone not be pro player in this discussion.

Edit: On the football front. How many NFL teams would pass on Trevor Lawrence in the upcoming draft? My guess is zero and he has to wait two more years to monetize his vast talents. I wonder how much college football he's going to be playing over the next two seasons? I think the rest of the QB room at Clemson is going to get plenty of snaps, particularly against the non-elite teams that will fill 70% of the schedule.

Last Edited: 2/22/2019 5:07:44 PM by Broomball @ Midnight!

You just got lesson number one: don't think; it can only hurt the ball club. - Crash Davis (1988)

BS Ohio '88 - MA Florida '92 - PhD Florida '10

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The Better Ohio Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 5:09:57 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
That can make a big difference in not only where he might be drafted but also the contract he might get.


It really doesn’t matter. If he does good in workouts he will be the #1 pick anyway. The NBA doesn't care that much about how you do in college.
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The Better Ohio Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 5:13:04 PM 
Brian Smith wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
The narrative that he should sit out even if healthy...much like the narrative that football players should sit out of bowl games...drives me up the damn wall. Yeah yeah protected future earnings and all that, blah blah. Where do you draw that line? When do you start benching high school players? Should middle school players bother playing dangerous unpredictable games or just do carefully designed workouts and drills? Players play.


I agree. It's one of those situations where the slippery slope argument isn't wrong.

I could definitely see the top high school player, especially in football, sitting out his senior year of high school if he was just a few months away from a big payday.

If you're a great athlete you should want to compete. Sure, take as many precautions as you can, but still compete. Like you said, you're just as likely to hurt yourself in a drill as in a game.



I totally agree until that last sentence. While you can get hurt in a drill you are definitely more likely to get hurt in a game.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 5:22:24 PM 
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:
Brian Smith wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
The narrative that he should sit out even if healthy...much like the narrative that football players should sit out of bowl games...drives me up the damn wall. Yeah yeah protected future earnings and all that, blah blah. Where do you draw that line? When do you start benching high school players? Should middle school players bother playing dangerous unpredictable games or just do carefully designed workouts and drills? Players play.


I agree. It's one of those situations where the slippery slope argument isn't wrong.

I could definitely see the top high school player, especially in football, sitting out his senior year of high school if he was just a few months away from a big payday.

If you're a great athlete you should want to compete. Sure, take as many precautions as you can, but still compete. Like you said, you're just as likely to hurt yourself in a drill as in a game.



I totally agree until that last sentence. While you can get hurt in a drill you are definitely more likely to get hurt in a game.


Considering you play three to five times the practices as games, I'm not sure this last sentence is necessarily true in basketball.
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Buck.Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 6:41:21 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:

Considering you play three to five times the practices as games, I'm not sure this last sentence is necessarily true in basketball.


I was firmly in the camp for Zion to not play another minute of college to avoid further injury. I changed my mind when it was brought up in numerous outlets that when basketball players aren't playing in official games, that they are playing in pick up games. Compare that to football where if you aren't playing in games, you are lifting and running and not playing pick up games.
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Donuts
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Post Count: 730

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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 6:46:43 PM 
Broomball @ Midnight! wrote:
The shot-term potential of losing $2-million for anyone projected to be a lottery pick, even a later 1st round pick, for forced to go to an institution of "higher learning" to major in basketball for a semester and a half, taking a full load of fluff classes for the fall term to insure eligibility is ridiculous.

If Zion was in the NBA right now... he'd be a year closer to cashing in on a max deal pushing the $200-million dollar range for 5 years and then be another year younger to re-up again and so on.

The notion that talented teens can earn advanced academic degrees, win olympic gold medals, major tennis tournaments.... and so on, but a 17-year-old basketball prodigy must wait is ridiculous.

When you factor in the sleazy AAU and summer camp industries into the "amateur" hoops equation how can anyone not be pro player in this discussion.

Edit: On the football front. How many NFL teams would pass on Trevor Lawrence in the upcoming draft? My guess is zero and he has to wait two more years to monetize his vast talents. I wonder how much college football he's going to be playing over the next two seasons? I think the rest of the QB room at Clemson is going to get plenty of snaps, particularly against the non-elite teams that will fill 70% of the schedule.


He doesn't have to wait. He could find a pro league to pay him. The NBA is allowed to make their own rules and requirements to join their league.

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Broomball @ Midnight!
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Location: Jacksonville, FL
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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 6:58:47 PM 
It's not an NBA league rule, it's part of the negotiated CBA. The union wanted to limit the Kwame Brown effect of kids sitting on the bench and marginal mid-career talent (union members) being squeezed out.

FYI.. Kwame decided not to go to Florida. I would have enjoyed watching him there. I'm not bitter, MJ drafted him #1... his "epic" fail earned him almost $64-million. That means he was signed to big deals again... and again after being the #1 overall pick.

It's a BS rule that should be considered age discrimination and in the ultimate future court case KG and Lebron as examples will prevail over the other hollow justifications for the current state.

You just got lesson number one: don't think; it can only hurt the ball club. - Crash Davis (1988)

BS Ohio '88 - MA Florida '92 - PhD Florida '10

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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 10,393

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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 10:02:27 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:
Brian Smith wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
The narrative that he should sit out even if healthy...much like the narrative that football players should sit out of bowl games...drives me up the damn wall. Yeah yeah protected future earnings and all that, blah blah. Where do you draw that line? When do you start benching high school players? Should middle school players bother playing dangerous unpredictable games or just do carefully designed workouts and drills? Players play.


I agree. It's one of those situations where the slippery slope argument isn't wrong.

I could definitely see the top high school player, especially in football, sitting out his senior year of high school if he was just a few months away from a big payday.

If you're a great athlete you should want to compete. Sure, take as many precautions as you can, but still compete. Like you said, you're just as likely to hurt yourself in a drill as in a game.



I totally agree until that last sentence. While you can get hurt in a drill you are definitely more likely to get hurt in a game.


Considering you play three to five times the practices as games, I'm not sure this last sentence is necessarily true in basketball.



More injuries occur in practice than games, simple mathematics. And actual injury data that is tracked supports that.
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Broomball @ Midnight!
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Location: Jacksonville, FL
Post Count: 84

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  Message Not Read  RE: Zion Williamson
   Posted: 2/22/2019 10:30:46 PM 
Gordon Hayward agrees.

You just got lesson number one: don't think; it can only hurt the ball club. - Crash Davis (1988)

BS Ohio '88 - MA Florida '92 - PhD Florida '10

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