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Topic: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Topic: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

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Bobcat Love
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Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 12:34:24 PM

Interesting point from Giacomo about the crowd expectations, and how we are now pleasantly surprised about a crowd of 4,500 strong....

Back in the fall of '94, we were routinely drawing 8,000-9,000 a game for Trent/Simmons/Geno/Boals and Co.

With the current incarnation of talent, we are now satisfied with 4,000-5,000.

A few things to consider:

1. Team coming off an NCAA appearance: Check. Both teams are coming off an NCAA appearance, but the win over G'town and hard fought loss to Tenn should be MUCH more appealing than an early flame out to Indiana in the '94 Tourney.

2. Full slate of home games to increase attendance: The 2010 edition has a HUGE advantage. Our entire non conference slate is almost all home games. The '94 team was on the road for the entire NIT (OSU, UVA, NYC) and played Kentucky right after the tournament. The only real '94 Non-Con home game was against West Virginia, but I would argue the 2010 Temple game (with them ranked) is a much bigger game, especially if Temple continues it's run.

3. Star Power: Have to give the edge to the '94 team. We all knew we were watching a lottery pick in Trent, and there was obviously a mid-ohio draw to Geno (albeit misdirected). Combine it with the fact that Trent was a mythical character in Athens with the dad in jail, and the rim rattling dunks...and it sold tickets. Now, from a cerebral fans perspective I would argue that DJ Cooper, at a younger age, is a more complete player than Trent. He just doesn't produce the highlight reels that Trent did. Freeman has endeared himself to our fans much the way Geno did, and interestingly enough, Washington and Simmons can draw apt comparisons for their on and off court style. Either way, chicks dig the long ball and this bullet may ultimately be the difference in why we drew 9k back then and 5k now.

4. Coaching: On attendance, Edge to Larry b/c he was an Ohio guy. I've never bought into the myth that we lost a large portion of our fan base when we fired Larry. He wasn't THAT integral to the program, and he had clearly lost control of a multitude of issues that led to his dismissal. Larry was an older guy who really didn't do anything at all to connect himself with the student community. However, there were more than a few people that felt comfy having one of our own pacing the sideline. Groce on the other hand is headed towards bigger and better at some point. He's already advanced himself in the post-season further than Larry or TOS ever did, and he makes an effort (whether real or artificial) to connect with the students. As a Coach and Recruiter - Groce outshines anything I've seen at Ohio. Translating it to attendance is a different issue altogether.

5. Economic Indicators - In 1994, we had an economy growing at almost 5% a year. In 2009 our economy grew at -2.9%. In 1994, unemployment was around 6%, now we are pushing almost 10%. These are very real issues facing the country, and because of obvious reasons, Southeast Ohio. I would argue. Now, you can argue that family packs, 4 packs, etc are being sold at bottom of the barrel prices...but when you are weighing essentials (clothes, shelter, food) vs. basketball tickets...pretty sure the population is going to veer towards the essentials every time. The line may not have been so black and white back in '94 and disposable income may have been easier to come by...at least it seemed that way.

6. In Game Experience - Not sure this even makes a difference. I guess if you really like tire-rolling, cell phone blindness, and coupons falling out of the sky...the 2010 edition would be an attendance bonanza. If you were all about the basketball, the band, the dance team, and cheerleaders - 1994 would be more for you. There's probably an era of kids being bred on Ohio hoops right now who like the promotions though, so it makes sense to keep them interested while bringing in sponsorship dollars to boot. Aside from mini balls being thrown into the stands in '94, I can't remember one promotion at all...anyone?

These are just a few things I was kicking around. It's really interesting to look at the similarities of the '94 and 2010 teams. There's a lot more I can write, but I don't have that much time. I'm more concerned with how to get attendance back up to the levels of 1994 on a consistent basis, and why (as Giacomo correctly said) we are satisfied with 4,500-5,000 in 2010.

Discuss.

Ohio Pilot
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 12:40:12 PM

there is no reason that we shouldnt have 1300 in the convo tonight....but we wont, because for some reason people dont really care.

DelBobcat
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 12:46:56 PM

I think that it was more of a case that people were satisfied with 5,000 for the season opener and against an inferior opponent who most people aren't familiar with. In my opinion--and I may be wrong--this team will draw some pretty large numbers versus the likes of Temple, Kent, 'kron, Fiami, Buffalo, and BGSucks. Students and casual fans are always more interested in the conference slate, which is all that matters considering the state of the MAC.

Sure, I went to just about every game while I was in Athens. However, the average student doesn't make going to every game a priority. With the momentum we picked up at the end of the last season and a strong start this year we could see some pretty impressive crowds by the time January roles around.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

Flomo-genized
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 12:49:42 PM

Nice job with the list, Love, I agree with many of your points. But I think you are overlooking a few other significant factors.

First, unlike the 93-94 team, last year's squad did not win a regular season championship, but rather finished 5th in the East. While the ultimate goal is of course the NCAA Tournament, the way you get there does matter as well. Back-to-back 7-9 seasons with multiple home losses does not generate nearly the same excitement the next year as does coming off a 14-4 conference championship season.

Second, we lost arguably the key piece to last year's tournament team (AB), along with another key starter (KVK). In contrast, the 94 team brought back pretty much everyone but Gus Johnson, who while important, wasn't nearly as critical a piece as the two guys gone from the 2010 team. Therefore, the 94-95 squad was much more of a sure thing than the 10-11 team.

Third, while this year's OOC schedule offers much more by way of home games, it offers much less in terms of overall name opponents. The local fans are going to be more excited about coming out to support a team that stomps the likes of Ohio State and UVa on the road, wins the Pre-Season NIT on ESPN, and then comes within a missed dunk of beating a top 5 UK team in Rupp. If we start off this season 4-0, and then beat Kansas and Santa Clara in Vegas, then we might see some of the same buzz. But just beating up on quality mid-majors won't get the common fan as amped, without a marquee win, even if this schedule is an excellent competitive fit for this year's team.

Just my $.02...

Edit: Football is probably also something of a factor as well. In 1994 we were historically lousy on the gridiron, with the season over before it ever even began. Now, fans have to split their attention between competitive football and basketball teams, which may help detract a bit from our early season hoops attendance.

Last Edited: 11/15/2010 1:00:21 PM by Flomo-genized

anorris
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 1:17:09 PM

The main reason I was thrilled with the turnout was that it was noticeably better than similar games the last two years. Announced was 2,300 better than last year, 1,800 better than the year before's comparable games (MTSU, W&M -- both Sunday afternoons; OVU excluded).

My sincere hope is that the team rips off a good string of wins in the non-conference, and comes back to the Convo in January with a similar 2,000 fan increase for the games that traditionally draw well, like Kent, Miami, etc.

Last year's Kent game announced 8,359; Miami announced a shade over 7,000 on a Wednesday. We open MAC play this year on a Sunday against Miami. Throw up a gaudy OOC record, maybe knock Temple down, and I think that has the potential for 10k+.

Dad's Weekend this year against Buffalo is a 3pm tipoff on ESPNU. That should be a highly attended game, as well. Knock some dust off those nose-bleeds. I'm cautiously optimistic so far with student turnout. Lets hope I'm not proven ignorant tonight.

It also seemed to me that the UD crowd was engaged throughout the game, which is a good sign. Our run & gun offensive style lends itself well to the casual fan, who isn't likely to get excited about a Charlie Coles defense, even if it is just as likely to win games. It takes a certain kind of fan to get excited about our TO% (which was stellar last game), but most anyone loves watching DJ flip the ball to Ivo for an 'oop out of the halftime break.

Last Edited: 11/15/2010 1:20:14 PM by anorris

OUVan
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 1:18:04 PM

Here are the differences between the 94-95 team and the 10-11 team:

Gary Trent's Bobcats waltzed through a very good MAC the year before on their way to a MAC tournament win and a big dance ticket. D.J. Cooper's Bobcats struggled to a #9 seed and unexpectedly gelled over the last 10 games to win the MAC tournament and a big dance ticket.

GT's Bobcats then proceeded to rock the national scene by winning the Preseason NIT. This team can't do that but it can get the fanbase abuzz by having a stellar out of conference peformance. But we've been teased before so I see the fanbase in a "show me" mode right now particularly with the offseason turmoil that we've had. There was no doubt that the 94-95 was going to be good. There is some doubt with this team.

If this team comes out blazing we have a real opportunity to have some really big crowds early with Fiami and Kent the first two weekends of the conference season. After those two however we only have two weekend home games the rest of the season and none after February 5th.

Casper71
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 1:45:09 PM

One big difference, students didn't have 10 million other things to do. I think more studeents attended games back then and that has got to be the majorityof OUr crowd.

Second difference, I'm not sure I get this discussion comparing Trent and Cooper. First, they are two very different players...dah, one big and one small is the obvious. After Cooper's stay in Athens is over, I think one may want to compare COLLEGE achievements. In other words, let's win some Championships. And, as has been pointed out, Cooper's chances of a long NBA career, I think, are slim to none. There just aren't many 5'11" point guards in the NBA. He does remind me of a smaller Nick Van Exel (ok, one that plays defense)!

Third, the pedigree of the '94 team was much better. They won Championships and played name competition (albeit on the road).

Voice of Reason
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 1:49:28 PM

Wouldn't comparing '06 to this year be more apples to apples. We had a 2 time MAC player of the year pick and an NBA Lottery pick on the '94 team. That alone, could account for a big difference in attendance. Additionally, if we did lose some fans when Larry Hunter was fired, the '06 season would provide us with probably the best attendance year since for a base comparison.

Just a thought.

Andrew Ruck
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 1:55:57 PM

Casper71 wrote:

One big difference, students didn't have 10 million other things to do.

More specifically, I would say the influx of computers is a big part. Facebook, online gaming, pornography, and general web surfing has claimed the majority of a young person's time. Back in 94, all we had to compete against was studying, listening to your walkman, and maybe an old Playboy mag.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

Voice of Reason
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 1:56:42 PM

By the way, we can make the above referenced comparison since all the box scores from 06-07 are on the website. Don't have time to do it now, BUT the attendance listed for the opener in '06 was 2707. 5000 plus is a BIG jump from that.

Ozcat
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 2:09:46 PM

Andrew Ruck wrote:

Back in 94, all we had to compete against was studying, listening to your walkman, and maybe an old Playboy mag.

Ha. Awesome.

I'm still disappointed with the lack of basketball marketing at Homecoming. When you have that many alums in Athens, you need to get their attention.

OUVan
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 2:11:46 PM

Voice of Reason wrote:

If I remember correctly that game was after Thanksgiving though.

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 3:21:35 PM

As for promotions going back to the 90s, I know there always seemed to be an Athens Honda or Don Wood Toyota halftime shootout. They actually used to bring a Civic onto the floor for anyone who could hit a layup, FT, 3pointer and halfcourt shot. Certainly, we are bombarded with more promotions now, but I don't fault any attempt to pay the bills. Although, I don't think I ever want to hear "That's another Citizens Bank 3 Pointer for Tommy Freeman!!"

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 3:39:53 PM

Those who have cited the cultural differences re: so many more entertainment options are right on IMO. That doesn't hurt the high majors as much because they have such a huge fan base waiting to get tickets anyway. However, with mid majors, it hurts, because it erodes the percentage who will attend games from an already smaller fan base.

Evil Gao
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 4:32:43 PM

Trent brought excitement and limelight. Remember the SI article proclaiming him Shaq of the MAC? That was when SI (and print media) really meant something. It really felt like the eyes of the nation at least glanced upon Ohio. That was a lasting national buzz. It wasn't some blurb on an ever-changing sports news web site.

Distractions of today compared to then? Maybe...

Yeah, we didn't have Twitter - we just told our real friends face-to-face that we just walked by Jason Terry and he reached into the stratospshere. And people didn't Google others the way you know (they used the campus student directory). And don't underestimate the pull EA Hockey on Sega Genesis had on us.

The big reason is that Trent made the game an event. When casual people outside of Ohio U. were talking about him, asking about him, you damn well better be part of it. When SI spoke, it was a must see.

Is this team or players part of the casual conversation outside of Ohio? Are they even part of the casual conversation of the South, East and West greens? That's the difference....

-----

You are an insect to me!

bobcatsquared
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 4:34:16 PM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

The Don Wood halftime shootout dates to the 1980s (not sure how long it lasted). I was bragging to my 11- and 4-year-old kids during the game Saturday how I came within a halfcourt shot of winning the car, circa 1987. Easy layup, nothing but net on the free throw and 3-pointer, and then, despite what SBH might say, just short on the halfcourt shot.

giacomo
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 4:56:39 PM

All good points why we don't draw more people to the games. I still don't think we had 5100 on Saturday. Anybody else at the game think that numbe is padded? When I was there I guessed 3800- 4000 tops.

Alan Swank
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/15/2010 5:10:16 PM

Evil Gao wrote:

What an outstanding post. I'm not sure there is any casual conversation these days because the word itself implies a discussion which is certainly more than 140 characters. Nice post EG.

DXer
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RE: Compare and Contrast - Crowds from '94 to '10

Posted: 11/21/2010 9:16:53 AM

My take on the situation is a bit different. Back in the 1970's a normal weeknight attendance was 5000 and a normal Saturday crowd was 7000-8000, and I don't remember those numbers changing much until about 15 years ago.

To me the difference was the introduction of the league tournament and the subsequent transistion over time of everyone buying into the NBA model for the basketball season. It used to be that you had "two seasons". In the regular season you played to win the conference championship and the champion was crowned with a trophy. This created excitement throughout the season and every game was important in the conference race. Then you proceeded on to the NCAA tournament which was a separate thing.

Now with everyone seeing things via the NBA model, the regular season is essentially played to solely determine seeding in the conference tournament. The big prize for the regular season now is simply to get the #1 seed in the tournament, or to get as high a seed as possible. All you have to do is read the posts on this message board throughout the season to see that this is the way it is.

So with this in mind, I have watched as attendance has fallen way off in recent years and this mindset is what I attribute it to. Since this is what the regular season is all about anymore, I can sure see the diminished interest in following the team during the regular season. It sure has for me.

If I were king, I would bring back the true conference championship and return the tournament to its rightful spot of solely determining who gets our automatic bid to the NCAA tournament.

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