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Topic: This Team is Not Ready For the MAC

Topic: This Team is Not Ready For the MAC

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JSF
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This Team is Not Ready For the MAC

Posted: 11/23/2010 10:01:46 PM

I think we're about to get pounded by Kansas. Can't believe we won that game tonight, because they sure didn't play like they deserved it. Aside from Asown, everyone on this team needs to pick it up, top to bottom. What happened to the running game? That completely disappeared in the second half. Also, the last 30 minutes was one of the worst defensive performances I've ever seen. Valpo had a layup line they didn't have to work for and open looks for threes whenever they wanted them. At least twice, a defender left a guy with the ball behind the arc. Nobody rotated, and the man had a clear shot. That was pathetic. Rebounding was absolutely atrocious, capped with that unforgivable offensive rebound Keely allowed them to get off a missed free throw with about three minutes to go. No flow on offense. Looks like what O'Shea had going sometimes. We're just passing it around the perimeter with an occasional pass inside that never comes back out.

We saw some of these problems against Oakland. It's not just tonight. We very nearly lost to a team we should have beaten by 15+ (and no, Valpo is not good. Don't even try. Pomeroy had us winning that by 14).

DJ is clearly the focal point of every defense and he's struggling to adjust. I have confidence he will, but he's still chucking up 2-3 poor threes a game. Needs to stop.

Ivo and Reggie need to man up and give a crap on the defensive end. This includes rebounding.

TJ and Rico need to learn the offense.

Groce: A lot of this is on him. He has no idea how to handle a rotation (though admittedly, he hasn't had too much opportunity to do so). He has to get his guys to play the way they're supposed to. It all starts with the head coach.

Right now, we have a team that isn't playing like they have anything to prove or have any motivation to climb the ladder.

Edit: Poor writing job on my part originally. This isn't about Kansas.

Last Edited: 11/24/2010 1:35:42 PM by JSF

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Ohio69
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 10:11:32 PM

Well, we were always going to get pounded by Kansas. Always.

Dragon is right about pretty much everything else. But, remember, its a process. Our sophomores and freshman still need to improve in all facets. We should get better as we approach February/March. But, the first few games are a reality check for those who thought we were a loaded team. We are not. All of that talk died when Stevie Fresh and the elder Kellog deserted the team. We are a solid but very young MAC team.

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 10:16:29 PM

Just get better every game. So cliche, but so true when you're a MAC school.

It will just be valuable to get Keely, Baltic and Devo minutes against legitimate big men. The Oakland center gave them a taste of it. Kansas will really force them to play big or Ohio loses by 40.

No lose proposition playing the Jayhawks in my mind. Either Ohio runs with them and gains confidence or they get their ego checked and Groce can tell them with conviction how much work they need to put in to get back to the dance.

Ohio isn't ready, but I think that might be a good thing in the long run.

BobcatSports
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 10:35:11 PM

Sorry this one Groce almost coached himself into a loss. Valpo didn't know whether to _hit or wind their watch half-way thru the first half. Instead of making some strategic replacements to get the freshmen and guys like Tungi some floor time, Groce pulls a wholesale WTF are these 5 guys doing on the floor together. He almost turned a laugher into a loss. Sayles saved Groce's _ss pure and simple. His performance only makes his view from the bench in the Oakland game even more puzzling. Some of these recent coaching moves have really become Groce!

Panda
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 10:43:00 PM

Please give this team some time. We have a long way to go. I wou;d like to see better defense/ A stronger and stingy defense will lead to a ,more rousing offense The young guys need more time and work.. CAN'T WAIT FOR JAN.

Panda

cc-cat
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 10:45:55 PM

It is only November 23rd.

JSF
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 10:47:48 PM

The season started Nov. 13. Effort can't take time.

cc-cat
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 10:50:47 PM

Effort is one thing - that should be there from day one. Complaining the freshmen don't know the offense is another. Looking at rotations is expected this early - as noted.

Last Edited: 11/23/2010 10:51:18 PM by cc-cat

Voice of Reason
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 11:07:58 PM

Classic Overreactions that are typical of this board. Probably from the same people that were ready to jump ship and cash in the football season after a loss to Toledo. This Valpo team isn't a bad team. They were picked third in the Horizon, behind Butler and a Detroit team with Ray Mccallum. Not to mention they are very well coached.

We are young and are going to have some growing pains. Accept that and friggin relax! Coach Groce never said this was going to be a breeze, that has been a concoction of pipe dreams from people on this board.

With regards to Bobcat Dragon's comment that Groce doesn't know how to handle a rotation...WOW! It is November and it is a very young team, especially at the guard position. He isn't just coaching this team for one game, he is coaching it for the long-term development...By the way he seems to know how to handle that(see Georgetown).

Friggin Relax!

JSF
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 11:19:29 PM

I stand by my comments. I wasn't ripping the freshman for saying they need to learn the offense, they just need to do it.

Groce couldn't handle the rotation last year, burying Tommy on the bench until we only had 8 scholarship players. He couldn't handle the rotation two years ago. This is a skill he needs to develop.

The biggest point, the one I stressed, you completely ignored. The effort was not there. That has nothing to do with the team being young or expectations being too high or having a lot of new pieces. Shouldn't need to ease into boxing guys out on free throws. I can live with some missed rotations and an occasionally stagnant offense if they're going for it, but the Bobcats were vastly outhustled tonight.

Chicken George
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/23/2010 11:29:16 PM

Bobcat Sports--you saw what I saw.

Valpo looked like Marietta College midway through the first half and we looked like Duke. Total mismatch and we were about to break this baby wide open. While I'm a huge JG fan, he was thinking the same thing, and thinking it way too early. Instead of putting this team away, then turning the 2nd half into a scrimmage, he cleared the benches well before the knock out punch had been delivered.

Low and behold, they climbed back in it. Valpo's body language totally changed. The enthusiasm on their bench totally changed. They stick around long enough to where they are the aggessors and we look lost. And we totally had this team on the ropes midway through the first half. They were shooting 14% and looked hopeless. I looked at those sitting next to me and said "We beat these guys by 30." Unfortunately the OHIO coaches and players must have been thinking the same thing.

And once again being a huge JG fan, I hate to say that if I would've seen the substitution pattern and been asked who's coaching this team I would've guessed TOS.

Didn't know anything about Valpo going in, but I assumed they would be fiesty, well coached and disciplined. I give them credit because they had about 2 guys that could even make our team; were on the ropes early; were on the road; and hung around a superior team long enough to where it was anyone's game down the stretch.

Last Edited: 11/23/2010 11:32:55 PM by Chicken George

RSBobcat
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 12:40:25 AM

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

I think we're about to get pounded by Kansas.

And so are about 20 other teams - duh! Is that a surprise? Anything less is a great showing.

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

Can't believe we won that game tonight, because they sure didn't play like they deserved it.

They won becasue they did not quit, did not flinch!

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

What happened to the running game? That completely disappeared in the second half.

Our advantage was inside - 2nd half game plan worked - note the final score.

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

Also, the last 30 minutes was one of the worst defensive performances I've ever seen. Valpo had a layup line they didn't have to work for and open looks for threes whenever they wanted them. At least twice, a defender left a guy with the ball behind the arc. Nobody rotated, and the man had a clear shot. That was pathetic.

This was one of the best offenses we will see all year - I was impressed by the handling/passing, and moving without the ball.

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

Rebounding was absolutely atrocious, capped with that unforgivable offensive rebound Keely allowed them to get off a missed free throw with about three minutes to go. No flow on offense. Looks like what O'Shea had going sometimes. We're just passing it around the perimeter with an occasional pass inside that never comes back out.

Again - note the final score.

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

We saw some of these problems against Oakland. It's not just tonight. We very nearly lost to a team we should have beaten by 15+ (and no, Valpo is not good. Don't even try. Pomeroy had us winning that by 14).

You obviously have not read much about their offense, and number of return players who were the bulk of it LY. And if you were not impressed by their offense (and their "heart" after the slow start)- you missed a lot.

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

DJ is clearly the focal point of every defense and he's struggling to adjust. I have confidence he will, but he's still chucking up 2-3 poor threes a game. Needs to stop.

? - I'll take 2-3 misses, for 2-3 makes - last I saw 50% from the 3 pretty much will lead the country - ?

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

Ivo and Reggie need to man up and give a crap on the defensive end. This includes rebounding.

Agreed. Their sophmores - playing the 4th game of the year. Cool out - you won't make it through the season!

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

TJ and Rico need to learn the offense.

I'm pretty sure that's what you do your freshman year...........

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

Groce: A lot of this is on him. He has no idea how to handle a rotation (though admittedly, he hasn't had too much opportunity to do so). He has to get his guys to play the way they're supposed to. It all starts with the head coach.

Correct. Again, note the final score............

RS Bobcat

Monroe Slavin
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 12:57:23 AM

Didn't see it but if your criteria is the final score, explain Oakland. And beating a lousy team by a few (not saying that was the case here) shouldn't make anyone happy if we played poorly in many respects.

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OUVan
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 6:54:20 AM

RSBobcat wrote:

This was one of the best offenses we will see all year - I was impressed by the handling/passing, and moving without the ball.

While that may be true it still doesn't change the fact that we played a horrid game on defense in the second half. We played off them and they still beat us on dribble penetration. And when they did there was no one to help on defense. We did a very poor job on switches. We didn't block out. I know this is a work in progress and that we will get better but you can't sugar coat our defensive performance.

Offensively we showed a lot more interest and I thought once we went cold from the outside Groce came up with a good game plan.

OUVan
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 7:07:11 AM

I asked this in another thread but never got a definitive answer but does anybody know why Kellogg didn't play the second half?

Andrew Ruck
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 8:10:15 AM

Good question OUV...To me it just seemed like Groce decided to play a bigger crew, which meant a lot of minutes for Devo/Keely/Baltic/Sayles and even some for Jacobs...and less for NK/Rico/TJ. Nick had a few turnovers in the 1st half and did not look as sharp as he did against TAMCC.

I thought our seniors won this one...Asown was fantastic, Devo played smart, and although Tommy still isn't hitting them as often as he eventually will, he made some real big plays.

I agree Ivo & Reggie need to toughen up in the post and our freshmen have a lot of learning to do...but I'm confident both those things are heading in the right direction. And I've said since day 1 that DJ needs to cut back on the deep 3s with 28 seconds left on the shot clock. I should qualify that DJ is freaking awesome, because some people take any minor criticism or area needing improvement as a complete attack on the player.

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potstirred
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 9:04:32 AM

Really? I think I'll wait until the MAC tournament before I decide if they are ready or not. Kind of reminds me of the joke about the 2 bulls on the hill

bn9
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 9:06:54 AM

potstirred wrote:

Really? I think I'll wait until the MAC tournament before I decide if they are ready or not. Kind of reminds me of the joke about the 2 bulls on the hill

By the time that the MAC Tournament rolls around, I don't think it will matter if we are ready to play Kansas, as I am pretty sure that Kansas will not be competing in the MAC Tournament.

bobcat695
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 9:25:46 AM

OUVan wrote:

I asked this in another thread but never got a definitive answer but does anybody know why Kellogg didn't play the second half?

I would guess it was a combination of going big in the 2nd half and Nick making some stupid mistakes in the 1st. He dribbled it off his foot making an easy move to his left, then picked up his dribble 70 feet from the hoop and had his lazy pass intercepted and layed back in. His ball handling skills were shaky last night.

I think last night would have been a blowout if Tommy and DJ shoot anywhere close to their average % from the perimeter. They each missed a lot of wide open 3's that are usually automatic. A combined 4-15 from deep is not what we are used to seeing. I agree with a lot of what Dragon says, but I am reserving judgement until later in the year. Remember, OU was not that good last year until March. That is how the Cats secured the #9 seed in the MAC tourney and a #14 in the NCAA tourney. The team has gotten even younger and less experienced as a whole. Freshman are just now getting used to having to work harder than they ever have. Through high school, these players were so much more talented than their peers, they could slack at times and still shine. Now that the opponents have similar talent each and every night, it will take time for them to buy into the fact that effort often is the difference between winning and losing.

Last Edited: 11/24/2010 9:26:23 AM by bobcat695

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John C. Wanamaker
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 9:33:59 AM

Bobcat Dragon wrote:

The season started Nov. 13. Effort can't take time.

Where do you think this team is not playing hard?

Last Edited: 11/24/2010 5:24:39 PM by Jeff McKinney

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oldkatz
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 9:37:13 AM

Damnit, Wannamaker.....quit stealing my lines!

Last Edited: 11/24/2010 9:37:43 AM by oldkatz

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cc-cat
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 9:50:54 AM

We just picked up two win in the middle of finals week. We are playing a lot of freshmen and inexperienced sophs. It is November and folks are calling out freshmen for not knowing the offense and sophs for effort, including defense - despite Ivo coming a rebound away from a double-double. Granted that is just box score watching, but give this team time. If your timetable was to be jelling by Kansas - that is unfair.

FearLeon
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 11:13:03 AM

It's not even Thanksgiving and it appears that some are pushing the panic button. I'm not really sure what people were expecting in November/December. We lose 2 scorers (Steviee Freshie and Armon), plus a big (Kellog) and some people are expecting us to jump out to a 4-0 start and blow teams out by 10-15 points every game.? On top of that, some are expecting us to give Kansas a game and possibly win?

Hey, I hope we beat Kansas and sure I'll be a little disappointed if we lose by 25 or more points. At this point, I'll be shocked if we can hang within 20 points. However, it's November...please keep everything in perspective. This team is not as good as it was last March. However, Groce has 3 months to figure it out and he will. Don't panic over losses that will take place in the next 30 days. It's not like this team was going to get an at-large bid to the big dance. Enjoy watching Coop and the young guys improve.....this will be a different team come March.

Last Edited: 11/24/2010 11:40:53 AM by FearLeon

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Bobcat110alum
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 11:32:17 AM

FearLeon wrote:

It's not even Thanksgiving and it appears that some are pushing the panic button. I'm not really sure what people were expecting in November/December. We lose 2 scorers (Steviee Freshie and Armon), plus a big (Kellog) and people expecting us to jump out to a 4-0 start and blow people out by 10-15 points every game.? On top of that, some are expecting us to give Kansas a game and possibly win?

Hey, I hope we beat Kansas and sure I'll be a little disappointed if we lose by 25 or more points. At this point, I'll be shocked if we can hang within 20 points. However, it's November...please keep everything in perspective. This team is not as good as it was last March. However, Groce has 3 months to figure it out and he will. Don't panic over losses that will take place in the next 30 days. It's not like this team was going to get an at-large bid to the big dance. Enjoy watching Coop and the young guys improve.....this will be a different team come March.

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SBH
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RE: This Team is Not Ready

Posted: 11/24/2010 12:11:02 PM

FearLeon wrote:

I think we were expecting some semblance of defensive intensity and an ability to freaking box out under the boards. Plus an improvement in Groce's bench skills. Kind of frightening lack of fundamentals at this point.

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