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Topic: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Topic: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

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Casper71
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SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 11:41:10 AM

Where is the MAC headed?

Currently, according to the Sagrin ratings, both the Colonial and Southern CONFERENCES are rated hiogher than the MAC in BOTH football and basketball. I don't remember this ever being the case!

So, what should OHIO and those MAC schools that really are Division 1-A be doing now?

Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 11:57:06 AM

Casper71 wrote:

Practicing and getting better.

UpSan Bobcat
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 12:56:01 PM

The bottom of the league is lower than ever in basketball. Three teams haven't even beaten a Division I opponent yet. There are another three teams rated pretty horribly.

The top of the league is doing OK. It hasn't been a marquee start by any means, but the East teams (except BG) have been solid. So has Ball State.

I can't really say why this is, but the MAC has never had so many truly awful teams.

As for football, it was a disappointing year at the top. Even the best teams in the MAC all had pretty bad non-conference records. But as far as football goes, I think the good thing is that you could probably call this a building year for most MAC teams. A lot of the league's biggest names return next year and I think many would predict that all of the MAC's best teams will all be better next year. I'd say that's true of Ohio, Miami, Temple, Toledo and maybe even Northern Illinois (even though they lose Spann).

Jeff McKinney
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 2:39:56 PM

I'm going to get some people really mad at me for saying this, but one reason for the decline of the MAC is spreading scarce resources too thinly. The same thing is happening to the Sun Belt! Both the MAC and Sun Belt have thrown their hats in the ring of the FCS football arms race. There is simply NOT enough revenue in MAC and Sun Belt programs (with a very few exceptions) to finance this strategy...so, the result is barely achieveing mediocrity in BOTH football AND basketball.

The solution? Pick either football or basketball, emphasize that sport, and deemphasize the other sport.

And if you don't think budgets have anything to do with this...it can be documented that they do, but I don't have time to get into that right now.

Look at leagues like the Missouri Valley, A-10, and the Colonial. Seems to be working very well for them to follow the strategy I suggest.

Casper71
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 2:50:33 PM

Jeff, I've been around the MAC since the late 60's. This is the worst it has ever been and it seems to be in a downhill slide. So, if our performance is at the Southern or Colonial level (with prospects to stay there) who are we trying to kid playing with theosu's of the world and why would we continue to play that game.

Seems like the realistic options are:

Status Quo...

Movin' on up, CUSA...

or

Moving down in football and putting our eggs in the basketball basket in a better Conference. With the Convo, that seems the most doable.

Never thought I'd come to that conclusion but it looks like it may be the best alternative. Besides, it does get you into the opportunity to play for a National Championship which we'll never get to with the first two options.

anorris
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 3:57:52 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Absolutely agree. As much as I hate to say it, with as good as football has been (by our standards) recently -- basketball is the sport more likely to give you ROI. Plus, we already have a high-level facility sitting on Richland.

Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 4:20:49 PM

The finances in college football are so out of whack that Pat Hill at Fresno State took a $300,000 pay CUT willingly to help keep the program and university afloat.

genessee
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 6:51:05 PM

Here's my response- much copied from a post I made on the football board after the frustrating loss to Kent. The focus was on football, but much is applicable to basketball, as well.

...I’ve mentioned it before, but MAC teams, because of conference parity and the conference’s position near the bottom of FBS conferences, are in an awful position. Certainly not all of the MAC schools can be viable FBS teams, thus to save any, some have to head to FCS. For those that do there will be positives. The most significant of which is the ability to place more emphasis and resources on basketball. The status quo in the MAC is not acceptable any longer if the intention is for some of the schools to remain I-A in football. It’s simply not worth the resources unless institutions are willing to make true commitment to football. And let’s be honest, not all of them are nor should they be. Frankly, I’m starting to come around to Dr. Vedder’s point of view, but I’m hoping we don’t go down that path.

Ohio’s got some great football players- true FBS & BCS talent at some positions, but is very weak at others. The same can be said of nearly every MAC team. A few big holes on each of the teams is sufficient to prevent any of them from making noise on the national stage. We’re competing with too many state and regional teams for scarce talent to make a splash in the FBS.

As for me, I’d like Ohio to remain in FBS football, but not under current conditions. It costs too much. The only way it will be worth it is if a few Ohio MAC teams (& certainly Eastern Michigan) decide go FCS. Otherwise we’ll continue to spin our wheels and lose on national television to teams with about 750 spectators at their stadium. It’s not acceptable. It’s decision time for some MAC teams.

brucecuth
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 6:55:31 PM

wish the good folks in cutler hall and the athletic department would take all of the above comments to heart...

Alan Swank
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 7:21:58 PM

brucecuth wrote:

wish the good folks in cutler hall and the athletic department would take all of the above comments to heart...

The only thing stopping them is the fear of being forever remembered as "the guy who . . ." It's tough to step out there and do the thing that may be unpopular but perhaps right.

Here's the article on Fresno State:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2010-12-0...

Last Edited: 12/9/2010 7:25:31 PM by Alan Swank

TWT
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 8:03:02 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

I'm going to get some people really mad at me for saying this, but one reason for the decline of the MAC is spreading scarce resources too thinly.

No Jeff. MAC athletic spending is at all time new highs. Ohio spend 7.3 million on football last year and that was second in the conference to Temple. Ohio is also leading the conference in basketball budget. The problem is not money, the MAC has more of it than ever. The reason why the MAC is struggling over the last 5 years or so is the acendancy of BCS basketball where the power 6 are leveraging thier scheduling advantages to the detriment of mid major conferences. The advantage of playing almost all of a schools non conference games at home has been around for a while at BCS schools but they've really gotten it down to a science of how to gerrymander the most NCAA bids. A few programs out their like Memphis, Gonzaga, Xavier are strong enough draw to act like BCS schools and their success can pull 1 or 2 other schools into the NCAAs. The MAC does not have any basketball programs with that kind of clout (hopefully Ohio can be that school). Now there was a time 10 years ago when the average player in the A10 or CUSA was more BCS material and a step above the MAC but most of those players have now found their way onto the rosters of second tier BCS schools. The MVC might be the exception because top to bottom they look like they attract bigger players but the A10 and CUSA not really anymore. Its a recruiting issue MAC schools face, plenty of resources are there.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Alan Swank
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 8:27:34 PM

Wes, we'll give you a pass there Wellston boy. In actual dollars, perhaps, but in real dollars or relative dollars, you're a tad off. Gaps - that's the key. What is the gap between what the big boys are spending and what OU and the MAC are spending? That gap is growing daily and there is no catching up. Maybe you slept in that day that ECON 101 was teaching that theory?

Ohio69
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 8:33:57 PM

Good grief. Are ya'll gonna have this "serious discussion" every week?

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

TWT
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 8:40:51 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

brucecuth wrote:

wish the good folks in cutler hall and the athletic department would take all of the above comments to heart...

Interesting numbers in that database for those who think Ohio is on a fast track to moving down. Ohio is paying Frank Solich identical numbers to what Chris Ault at Nevada is making and above all other MAC coaches with the exception of Al Golden (maybe). The state budget situation is one to watch for in the MAC if any schools are ever going to move down or out of the football business.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

TWT
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 9:07:26 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

I'm undecided as to what angle to answer this from but what I'll say is the game is titling away from gate receipts and more toward TV stature as a measure. Like the Federal Government is finding out with a pay freeze the salary increases for the BCS coaches will have a celing. If Nick Saban continues to double his salary every 4 years at that rate the Alabama athletic department will go under before he can retire. The long term TV contracts negotiated by the SEC lock a fixed fee of 20 million a year until 2025. The MAC is not going to catch up to this or even has the will to do so but its going in the direction where its starting to seperate itself from any of the so called FCS leagues. MAC football can be on Tuesday mornings with only the groundskeepers in the stands and it really doesn't matter as long as TV cash is rolling in. It will be less and less about actual attendance than paid attendance. MAC schools will sellout every game with empty stadiums. Its nothing more than money and those schools that have it an FBS level facility (25,000 seats) adequate to play along will and those who don't will drop scholarship football. Another 10-20 schools are planning to move up from FCS and that division will collapse. The MAC then is probably just going to stay as is with the schools having the stadiums to play in non-BCS ball while having more peer universities to play against. Conferences that have D1, 85 scholarship football are going to make TV revenue and those that don't will make none.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

mcbin
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 9:23:33 PM

Ohio69 wrote:

Good grief. Are ya'll gonna have this "serious discussion" every week?

If we're gonna have silly discussions because we can't be the biggest and baddest, allow me to add some more nonsense please - for the defeatists on the board. Apologies to Casper71 also.

I think we should consider liquidating our university endowment, because there's no way we can compete with the big boys in college fundraising. Harvard, Columbia, and others gain more in a good market day than what we have TOTAL.

Also, I think we should reconsider the volleyball 'arms race' we're in these days. After all, we'll never have a Nebraska Coliseum of our own. :) That one is for you Alan.

While I'm at it, I think I'll have to cut my donations to the College of Business. After all, no matter what I do, OU's COB will never have the resources of a Fisher/OSU or a Carnegie Mellon. May as well shutter Copeland to save some dough too. Copeland's Court Street Condos anyone?

And finally, I am disappointed we're not able to pour money into Bob Wren stadium like UNC can do to their stadium. And how in the world can we expect to compete with Arkansas, that seats 5X more than Wren?

Alan Swank
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 9:45:09 PM

mcbin wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

Good grief. Are ya'll gonna have this "serious discussion" every week?

That's a pretty good one Ben. We don't need a volleyball coliseum because we have an arena that already seats 3 times as many as that coliseum plus it has better lighting.

As for interjecting academics into the discussion, you're comparing outcomes vs. entertainment. The academic programs prepare students for the real world that you and I inhabit and OU prepares some world class students. Athletics, at our level anyway, simply provide us with the entertainment that we sometimes want or need to get our minds off work - hence The Entertainment and Sports Programming Network.

Last Edited: 12/9/2010 9:56:09 PM by Alan Swank

TWT
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 9:52:19 PM

Casper71 wrote:

Where is the MAC headed?

It doesn't really matter what other MAC schools are doing. The MAC is a conference for scheduling and the automatic bid to the NCAA tourney. It provides a post season tourney in a regional city like Cleveland for alumni to travel to and reconnect with the university. If Ohio's going to have a good basketball team its up to Ohio. Go out and build that basketball practice facility and bump Groce's salary up to 1.5 million a year. The program could be there but its not there yet. The school has to first win the MAC East in basketball something that hasn't been done before and stop finishing 10-6 or 9-7 in MAC play every year.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

TWT
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 10:00:57 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

mcbin wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

Good grief. Are ya'll gonna have this "serious discussion" every week?

That's a pretty good one Ben. We don't need a volleyball coliseum because we have an arena that already seats 3 times as many as that coliseum plus it has better lighting.

As interjecting academics into the discussion, you're comparing outcomes vs. entertainment. The academic programs prepare students for the real world that you and I inhabit. Athletics simply provide us real world folks with the entertainment that we need to get our minds off work.

McBin is touching on something I see as the future indicator for whether Ohio can stay up in FBS ball long term, overall institutional money. The private donations rolling in for academics over the last 15-20 years is seperating the school from the more poorly funded in the MAC academically. I could see a couple of schools bowing out of MAC football out of instutitional deficits.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

bobcat695
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/9/2010 10:49:06 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

mcbin wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

Good grief. Are ya'll gonna have this "serious discussion" every week?

I was thinking back to my four years at OU. I would argue that at least 50% of my classes could be classified as entertainment, much like reading a book now. Since I have never used any of the information learned in those classes in my professional life, I classify those liberal arts classes as entertainment. That is why I am more inclined to give money and time directly to the College of Business. At least the skills I learned in Copeland are applicable in my everyday life. Unnecessary excess is everywhere on college campuses. Athletics is just an easy target by academia.

Last Edited: 12/10/2010 12:14:16 PM by bobcat695

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

athena
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/10/2010 9:01:27 AM

Ohio69 wrote:

Good grief. Are ya'll gonna have this "serious discussion" every week?

Yes. This discussion will be on every board, every week of every season.

Are you new here???

bobcat2nc
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/10/2010 11:37:52 AM

athena wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

Good grief. Are ya'll gonna have this "serious discussion" every week?

Yes. This discussion will be on every board, every week of every season.

Are you new here???

I feel like I am back at the local bar with the other locals having the very same discussion over and over again. Just like at the bar the only difference is the loudness and animation that goes with the discussion from time to time.

Around here the topic doesn't get to the MAC unless I have had one too many but it frequently sounds like this:

the sous easht cofrensh really cheats caushe ohio shtate ish better than them sheaters. we don't get no reshpec!

Jeff McKinney
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/10/2010 1:15:14 PM

Wes wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

I'm going to get some people really mad at me for saying this, but one reason for the decline of the MAC is spreading scarce resources too thinly.

Wes, you may be missing the point here. The concern is not that we are falling further behind the BCS conferences; the concern is that the MAC is falling further behind other non-BCS conferences like the Colonial, Horizon, West Coast.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/10/2010 1:24:11 PM

Ben, I can't see why my views should be classified as "defeatist". I want Ohio and the other MAC schools to have great athletic programs and to thrive. However, the numbers show that the MAC is not thriving, but declining competitively. All I want to do is figure out why and then adjust policy to DO SOMETHING about it at the conference level. We want the MAC to do well; we want Ohio to do well. Now we have to figure out the best configuration of allocation of resources, and ways to increase resources, to make it happen. It basically involves strategic planning and smart, realistic priorities. Again, I can't see how that mindset is "defeatist."

My vision is to see athletics thrive at Ohio University with a stable, consistent funding mechanism. I also don't want to see the MAC continue to go the way of the Sun Belt--i.e., falling behind competitively vis-a-vis other non-BCS conferences.

I'm getting darn tired of seeing the MAC getting hammered every week in non-conference basketball and football games. Rating #18/#19 in basketball and #14 in football is embarrassing.

Ohio69
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RE: SERIOUS DISCUSSION NEEDED

Posted: 12/10/2010 1:54:34 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

....All I want to do is figure out why and then adjust policy to DO SOMETHING about it at the conference level. We want the MAC to do well; we want Ohio to do well....

Its simple Jeff. Spend more! (And I am smiling while I type this, but am also serious folks.)

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

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