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Topic:  Timekeeper....

Topic:  Timekeeper....
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Bobcat Love
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  Message Not Read  Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 9:50:54 AM 
There was a grave error made by the Timekeeper in the Kent Game that is getting no play, and I can't figure out why.

At 12.12 left in the 2nd half with Kent up 46-45, Kent starts their possession.
At 11.45 in the same possession, Rod Sherman tosses up a 3 pointer that hits the backboard padding - NO RIM.
There is a scrum for several seconds, and Kent kicks the ball out to the top of the key to re-start their possession.

Luckily for them, our OHIO timekeeper reset the shot clock with approximately 2 seconds left so that they could setup a new possession even though the ball hadn't touched iron.

Vis a vis, there was a media timeout called...Kent got the ball with a new 35 and ended up taking a 47-45 lead via a Sayles foul and 1/2 of FT's by Justin Manns.

We get the ball back at 11.01 left in the game...which is 1m 11s after we gave it to Kent. Certainly worth 2 more possessions for us.

By the way, when Manns missed his 2nd FT, there was another offensive rebound on a FT for Kent. How does this happen where nobody blocks out on FT's??? It happens every single game now!

I'm sorry, but this is not the first time this season that we have had timekeeper issues. Against Oakland, it seemed like we had a 4 year old pushing the buttons as the refs continuously had to come to the scorers table to figure out what in the world was happening.

It's clear this '10-'11 edition of the Bobcats is going to be playing a lot of games that come down to inches, and the Timekeeper not knowing the rules or applying the rules or pushing the right buttons is unacceptable in the scope of these wins and losses. There has to be an immediate remedy, b/c as correctly stated by Jason Arkley on twitter - neither of us can remember a season with this many timekeeper issues.

This is not even something we should ever be discussing, as that's a function that should take place in the background with ease.

Edit - I did see Dustin Ford talking to the Ref during the media timeout...but I was standing there pointing at the shot clock demanding that we get the ball back. Just because the timekeeper resets the shot clock does not mean Kent touched iron in 35 seconds...it should have been our ball, not a reset shot clock. The refs looked at the monitor and made the call to give Kent a new 35, but it either should have been Ohio ball or Kent ball with 1 second left on the shot clock. There is no way you can tell me Sherman's shot touched iron - it wasn't even close.

Last Edited: 1/18/2011 9:52:29 AM by Bobcat Love
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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 10:09:19 AM 
I sort of remember this, but I think maybe the timeout maybe distracted me from what occurred.

Shouldn't the officials ultimately make a ruling on the violation? Did our coaches protest?
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Bobcat Love
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 11:49:25 AM 
I think Groce put up a minor fit and Dustin had a long convo with the refs.....but obviously they didn't fight hard enough.

The only question is whether the shot hit iron, and from watching the on demand feed of the game again - it wasn't even close.

This is a serious problem imo. I'm not talking about HVAC here. I'm talking about things that directly impacted the outcome of the game.
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TheGreenFever
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 2:50:55 PM 

I remember the situation Love.  My brother-in-law and I both say the ball never touched the rim and we were shock to see the ball go back to Kent.  Although, I don't remember the clock being reset to 35 after the timeout.  It was at 30 after the timeout. 

Last Edited: 1/18/2011 2:51:56 PM by TheGreenFever
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Bobcat Love
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 2:56:22 PM 
Greenfever...welcome and you are right. The clock was at 30 after the timeout. So they basically got a 65 second possession instead of us getting the ball back after the 35 second violation.

I'm irate about this. Someone calm me down and tell me why this happened. The refs even looked at it on the monitor...what am I missing???
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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 3:04:41 PM 
From where I was sitting (right next to you), I saw the exact same thing.  The next dead ball that was at my feet, I politely told the official he was missing a pretty good game.  I had the same view as him and I knew the ball never touched the rim. 

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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TheGreenFever
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 3:23:35 PM 
I believe the ball did touch the backboard but never the rim so maybe they saw it hit somehow although we were up in the corner of the Convo and saw it never hit.  But I also agree with another statement, they never box out on free throws or any shot mind you.  With a small squad like we have, that is critical.  I was wondering why Coop had to be down low on defense but seeing he was fighting for the ball a lot, he had no choice.  If anyone should be down there beside Coop would be Freeman or Kellogg.  Let Coop be ready to fast break or something.  We got to learn to rebound and box out a lot better. 
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 10:35:48 PM 
The ref knelt in front of the monitor and very quickly pointed at the screen and said, "See, it DID hit the rim." He pointed it out to both the scorekeeper and another ref.  They were right in front of me.
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anorris
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 10:40:46 PM 
I recall tapping my head pretty hard during that timeout.  I calmed down when I saw them go to look at the monitor, thinking they surely couldn't screw the call up - I truly thought there was no way in the world the ball hit the rim.

As mentioned, in a one-possession game (we've played a LOT of those), this is huge.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/18/2011 11:49:24 PM 
Okay, if the refs blowed it, they blowed it.  But we had plenty of time and opps to overcome so can't much ascribe the final (seven point reversal in the last 2 minutes) to that.

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Ohio football
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/20/2011 12:53:21 AM 
Bobcat Love wrote:
There was a grave error made by the Timekeeper in the Kent Game that is getting no play, and I can't figure out why.

At 12.12 left in the 2nd half with Kent up 46-45, Kent starts their possession.
At 11.45 in the same possession, Rod Sherman tosses up a 3 pointer that hits the backboard padding - NO RIM.
There is a scrum for several seconds, and Kent kicks the ball out to the top of the key to re-start their possession.

Luckily for them, our OHIO timekeeper reset the shot clock with approximately 2 seconds left so that they could setup a new possession even though the ball hadn't touched iron.

Vis a vis, there was a media timeout called...Kent got the ball with a new 35 and ended up taking a 47-45 lead via a Sayles foul and 1/2 of FT's by Justin Manns.

We get the ball back at 11.01 left in the game...which is 1m 11s after we gave it to Kent. Certainly worth 2 more possessions for us.

By the way, when Manns missed his 2nd FT, there was another offensive rebound on a FT for Kent. How does this happen where nobody blocks out on FT's??? It happens every single game now!

I'm sorry, but this is not the first time this season that we have had timekeeper issues. Against Oakland, it seemed like we had a 4 year old pushing the buttons as the refs continuously had to come to the scorers table to figure out what in the world was happening.

It's clear this '10-'11 edition of the Bobcats is going to be playing a lot of games that come down to inches, and the Timekeeper not knowing the rules or applying the rules or pushing the right buttons is unacceptable in the scope of these wins and losses. There has to be an immediate remedy, b/c as correctly stated by Jason Arkley on twitter - neither of us can remember a season with this many timekeeper issues.

This is not even something we should ever be discussing, as that's a function that should take place in the background with ease.

Edit - I did see Dustin Ford talking to the Ref during the media timeout...but I was standing there pointing at the shot clock demanding that we get the ball back. Just because the timekeeper resets the shot clock does not mean Kent touched iron in 35 seconds...it should have been our ball, not a reset shot clock. The refs looked at the monitor and made the call to give Kent a new 35, but it either should have been Ohio ball or Kent ball with 1 second left on the shot clock. There is no way you can tell me Sherman's shot touched iron - it wasn't even close.




Mr Love,

Please do you homework before you start to blame other people for the Bobcats inability to win games this season.   Beginning in the 2009-2010 season the NCAA put the referees in charge of officially stopping the clock.   The referees are equipped with a device the stops the clock each time they blow their whistle.  You will notice them fidgeting with a device attached to the back of their belts at almost every stoppage of time.  The official timekeepers job is to now run a secondary clock at the scores table as a backup in case of equipment malfunction.  In addition, the official timekeeper is in charge of the clock during the last minute of each half as the devices that the refs carry are turned off. 

As for the play that involved the possible shot clock violation.   The referee viewed the monitor and confirmed that the shot by Kent State did indeed hit the iron.   Trust me, I asked the same question after the game.  That is why the shot clock was reset and there was no further protest by John Groce.  You really don't think he would have let that go by without a technical do you? 

As for our official keeper himself.  He has timed almost every single game played in the Convo's  history for both the Ohio Bobcats and every post season high school basketball game.  He even timed the last couple years when the games where played at Grover.  In addition his tenure as our official football time keeper is just as long.  This man does an outstanding job and is still as sharp now as he was 20 years ago.   He was elected to the Ohio Athletics Officials hall of fame in the late 1990's and he been invited to time the OHSAA boy's basketball finals on multiple occasions.    He is more than qualified to time OUr games and we should be proud to have someone of his experience.   The real problem lies with the referees themselves not the "4 year old pushing buttons."   

Mr Love.  Please pass this along to Jason Arkley. 
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John C. Wanamaker
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/20/2011 5:46:45 AM 
Ohio Football, you do know that the clock in question here is not run by the same person you are describing, but rather a different person runs the shot clock? As two people keep time and both are licensed officials.

Besides that "little" correction I will agree on the situation was handled properly, and that both guys are than competent.

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half."

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Bobcat Love
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/20/2011 9:30:58 AM 
A. There is no correlation b/w the OHSAA Hall of Fame and being an effective timekeeper at Ohio University. Check my post after the Oakland game. It was a comedy of errors at the scorers table all game long.

B. The ball didn't hit the rim. I don't care what anyone says. Check 1h 14m mark of the On Demand video - I've watched it several times. (I think it's 1h 14m mark, I'm travelling so I may be wrong. If it's not 1h 14m mark, it was 46-45 right after Coop shoots 2 FT's).

C. If the Ref is indeed in charge of resetting the shot clock (which I find odd and wrong, but whatever)...then of course they are going to say it hit the rim after watching it on the monitor. Who's going to overrule that? They are going to make themselves look like they made the right call. 2 of those 3 Refs are known nudniks anyways that couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground.

My point is that the ball NEVER hit the rim and Groce should have put up a bigger fight to say as much. I would have wanted to see it hit the rim for myself b/c it never did and the on demand video only supports it.
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bigbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/20/2011 9:37:34 AM 
Bobcat Love wrote:
A. There is no correlation b/w the OHSAA Hall of Fame and being an effective timekeeper at Ohio University. Check my post after the Oakland game. It was a comedy of errors at the scorers table all game long.


None of which was his fault. Maybe it will show it in the on-demand video which you are so fond of, but at one point during a dead ball he sat back and put his hands up, and the clock still began to run. I don't blame him at all for that game.
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Ohio football
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/20/2011 9:48:43 AM 
Bobcat Love

The refs run the official game clock not the shot clock.    Take it up with the refs on the issue of whether the ball hit the rim or not.  It is their final call and on that play they reviewed the monitor and indeed saw the ball hit the rim.  My guess is that you weren't at the scorers table to view the same information. 
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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/20/2011 10:45:43 AM 
Again, the ref watched the video, pointed it out to the guy at the table and then pointed it out to another ref.  From my perspective, it appeared the ball could have brushed the rim as it crossed from right to left.

Perhaps there was a conspiracy.  If so, I was sitting on the grassy knoll.
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Bobcat Love
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/20/2011 12:48:49 PM 
So if the Refs don't run the shot clock, why didn't the 35 seconds run out as it should have and the buzzer sounded? Someone reset the shot clock after the ball missed everything...which is my original issue.

Whoever controls the shot clock dropped the ball. Refs, Hall of Fame Timekeeper, whoever. Someone reset that clock before seeing the replay on the monitor.

Again, I'm saying the refs were doing some CYA by just saying it hit the rim - it didn't. Check the replay on demand.
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OU77BCJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/20/2011 1:53:30 PM 
The shot clock is run buy the big guy in glasses setting very near the monitor.  It is his job to reset the clock if the ball hits the rim.  In his opinion the ball hit the rim as he reset the clock.  There was then a question as to whether it hit the rim or not.  The ref then went to the monitor to verify if the ball hit or not.  As someone earlier said he told someone at the bench that it hit the rim and also told the time keeper (3 point clock) good job.  Then showed the other  ref  and he agreed.  Then back to the game with the clock having been reset.  Seen and heard all this from 4 rows back from the monitor. 
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John C. Wanamaker
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  Message Not Read  RE: Timekeeper....
   Posted: 1/20/2011 1:57:43 PM 
Our timer, book keeper and shot clock guys are as good as any in the Nation. Can't attest to anything during that game, but they are some of the best there is.

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half."

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