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Topic: Done with caring

Topic: Done with caring

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Pataskala
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Done with caring

Posted: 1/22/2011 5:37:37 PM

After watching our 20-minute wonders I'm done with caring about this team for this year. Such a great first -- full of energy and teamwork. Then a completely flat second half. Lack of conditioning, or were they just playing on emotion? I thought DJ was at his best in the first half; 3pts but six assists. They were working the ball great and playing fantastic with a great transition game: 16 pts off turnovers. But they couldn't handle it when Buffalo stepped up its game. I wish them well; hope they can turn it around; but I'm done for the year. See you in the fall.

And if TJ Hall shoots another three, would somebody PLEASE lock him in his room.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

Casper71
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/22/2011 5:46:29 PM

Can't say that I blame you...that was tough to watch. But, they are OUr team so we gotta keep the faith.

My fear, and these doubts are growing by the game, is that we will be saying the same thing in a couple of years.

This Coach needs to get these players playing smarter, more consistent basketball for the whole 40 minutes. That is one of the primary duties of any college basketball coach!

GraffZ06
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/22/2011 5:49:40 PM

Pataskala wrote:

And if DJ Cooper, TJ Hall, Asown Sayles or Ricardo Johnson shoots another three, would somebody PLEASE lock him in his room.

Fixed it for ya.

Those 4 are a combined (wait for it) 67-248 from three for a whopping 27%. Might as well start using horse trick shots if that's the standard. It might be more bearable if they weren't attempting 13.1 attempts per game.

Basically, take 1/4 of our possessions and flush it down the toilet.

OU77BCJ
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/22/2011 6:48:14 PM

First time in 13 years of season tickets that I left a game early. Could stand no more and left with 3 something left.

Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/22/2011 6:58:37 PM

OU77BCJ wrote:

First time in 13 years of season tickets that I left a game early. Could stand no more and left with 3 something left.

Why did you give it up today 77? Heard lots of grumbling myself as we left the arena including this quote from a man behind me - "so that's what a $50,000 raise got us?" Yikes - the natives are getting restless.

mlh1981
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/22/2011 7:09:06 PM

We are all "done with caring" until the next game starts. That's the nature of the beast. Sometimes, teams just have to face great adversity to get to where they want to go, and if this isn't a big wakeup call, then nothing will be.

Chicken George
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 12:34:23 AM

JG posted in a post-game interview that "we're a 3 point shooting team." So we're going to live & die with/without the hot hand. I brought a first time visitor today, who knows his basketball and his comment was, "your offense is terrible. They run a few screens and then everyone takes a spot on the court and stands there." Couple that with the facts that we don't have a play-maker who can consistently drive and kick it out to a 3 ball shooter, with the fact that our post guys rarely attract double teams to open someone up (not to mention they rarely pass period when they get the ball in the post) and we have a lot of contested 3 point shots.

Man would I like to get Tommy a few more open looks per game. His game goes dry for long periods of time due to these factors and the kid can flat our shoot. But everyone's playing him honest because they don't respect any other facet of our offense to leave him open to help anywhere else.

Pataskala
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 12:59:10 AM

Senior leadership would help keep the team focused when things start going bad.

A motivator would help get them fired up when the emotion is gone.

Didn't see either out there today, or really all year.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

The Situation
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 1:54:47 AM

I want a public apology. I've never publicly distepected a team I love but I want an apology for this year. This is not a what have you done for me lately comment. This is a you have slapped me in the face with dissappointment. Get with it or get lost Groce. Most losses since 1917? Wow.

John C. Wanamaker
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 7:59:42 AM

Groce nor the team owe anyone an apology. They are working hard, they are giving a good effort physically, they just are not very good.

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half."

Flomo-genized
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 9:06:44 AM

John C. Wanamaker wrote:

Groce nor the team owe anyone an apology. They are working hard, they are giving a good effort physically, they just are not very good.

If you really believe that this is the best we can expect from this group of athletes, then you are totally blinded to reality by your feelings about Groce as a person. We should not have 8 home losses this year against this level of opposition, nor should we be 1-4 in the MAC and 8-11 overall. No this was not a 25 win team on paper, but there is enough talent here to be doing much better than we are doing, if it were being well coached.

The coaching staff was exposed yesterday, pure and simple. Outcoached in the second half in every respect. No adjustments on offense or defense. Sure the players failed to execute at times, but blowing an 18 point second half lead at home, while allowing your opponent to shoot 72% from the field, is always a coaching issue.

Flomo-genized
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 10:01:57 AM

Just to follow up a bit more on the talent issue, yesterday UB's run was primarily the work of Byron Mulkey and Zack Filzen. It wasn't until after our lead had evaporated that UB's interior advantage really came into play down the stretch. Mulkey is a former walk-on, while Filzen was a Big Sky recruit (Northern Arizona) coming out of HS in Minnesota. Admittedly, that combo has more experience than Cooper and Kellogg, but I don't think anyone would argue that they are inherently more talented or gifted players.

Similarly, while I'll be the first to admit that this year's squad does not match up on a talent-basis to those of the mid-to-late 80s, mid-to-late 90s, or early-00s, neither does the level of competition we are facing. Barring a miraculous turnaround (considering that we still have road trips to Oxford, Kent, Buffalo, K-zoo, Mt. Pleasant, and Muncie), we are going to finish below .500 in the MAC for the third straight year, the first time that has happened since 1976-78. This just happens to coincide with the weakest three-year stretch by the MAC in living memory. So even if our talent level is down a bit based on historical levels, which I'll concede, given that the MAC as a whole is WAY down we still should not be struggling to just break even in the conference for three straight years.

Given that, I don't see how anyone can conclude that coaching is not an issue right now at least to some degree. Hell, arguably our worst team ever (the 5-win 1997-98 team) was able to avoid losing four straight home games, against a significantly tougher MAC (our current four-game home losing streak comes against teams ranked #167, #173, #141, and #99 respectively by Ken Pomeroy).

In any event, this is the last year that Groce and his apologists can plead a lack of talent. Next year every player on the roster will have been recruited by JG. If Groce doesn't win, and win big, the next two years, it is unlikely to ever happen.

Last Edited: 1/23/2011 10:04:25 AM by Flomo-genized

cc-cat
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 10:30:17 AM

I don't know as much about basketball as some on this board. I certainly don't know as much as some on the board think they know, but I do know this. When a team is as consistently inconsistent as this team is (from half to half and even within halves) that falls on the coach.

Flomo-genized
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 10:39:06 AM

One last thought on the "lack of talent" issue...some of what is being perceived as a lack of talent is actually a system issue. Throughout its three years, this staff has focused primarily on recruiting high-post bigs, rather than more traditional low block post players. For example, recruits and targets such as Ivo Baltic, Jon Smith, Ethan Jacobs, Marquis Horne, George Fant, David Chadwick, Danny McElroy, William Green, Griffin McKenzie, Cole Darling, Nate Anderson, Aaron White, and Kyryl Natyazhko are all primarily high-post type bigs. While players of that type can certainly be quite valuable, they do tend have their limitations, one of which is typically defensive and rebounding toughness in the paint. That was the book on Kyryl, for instance, even as highly regarded as he was.

So I'm not convinced that our rebounding and interior defense issues each of the three years under Groce are solely talent related. Sure we'd be better off on the glass if Alex Kellogg had stuck around, and if Reggie Keely were developing faster. But some of our rebounding and interior defense problems are inherently system related. For instance, this year Ivo Baltic has generally been quite good, especially for a sophomore big. I don't think we could have expected much more out of him this year. Nor could anyone have realistically expected more than another rebound or two per game out of DeVaughn. But yet, we're still getting slaughtered on the glass.

Thus, in short, the claim that all of our problems simply come down to a lack of talent, and are not at all coaching or system related, is really hard for me to swallow. There is much more at work here than simply a lack of talent.

Last Edited: 1/23/2011 10:55:01 AM by Flomo-genized

mcbin
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 11:44:52 AM

Flomo, or anyone, perhaps I am being a little to simplistic... But since 5 or so of our games have come down to the wire, and we just needed a little more to get the win (13-6 vs our current 8-11 by winning the ~5 point games) do you not think the untimely exit of players can pretty much explain the woes thus far?

Alex Kellogg - rebounding to eliminate just a small amount of second chance points for all of these games where a couple possessions could make all of the difference in the world.

Coleman - Slasher, scorer, and more option for Nick & Tommy to be open with a legitimate threat of someone going to the basket.

Bassett - scorer and all around playmaker. As it stands now, Cooper has to be that guy and we need him dishing instead of having to take the final shot.

I think it's pretty simple. We were (or apparently are) a very not-deep team, and the exit of these guys put a lot of others into action before they were ready. If I had to guess, Groce had expected near 100 minutes a game in these 3 players and they just walked out the door.

The only thing I didn't cover, which I think would have been a problem anyway was team leadership. We didn't have it before, and sure don't now. Hopefully Cooper can be that guy next year, or maybe Offutt? Don't know much about him. I'd say the coach can take half of this blame for not recruiting one, and the seniors take the other half for not stepping up.

I know it is a bit deeper than this, just because I do think we can with with the current group. But most things are going to have to go right this year(that's coaching related), whereas with a full squad that we wanted to have, a little dysfunction could be had and games would still be winnable.

bobcat28
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 12:38:28 PM

Ivo makes a move to the basket every single time he gets the ball within 19 feet of the hoop. Even the announcer said he had "tunnel vision" and looks to score everytime.

Nice free throw by Tunji. Opposite crotch.

Asown plays hard but he doesnt have the talent to play at this level

Kellog played well. Like to see him take more shots and consistently get more minutes.

Keely has cement in his shoes with telephone book hops. He sets basketball back 50 years when he has the ball.

TJ has horrible shot selection.

I would have liked to have seen DJ take over and make more plays in the second half. Note this doenst mean shoot, but more drive and dish. I think he is tired at the end of games.

I really dont understand what happened to Tommy, its like he lost any fundamentals he had over the off season.

Devo played ok yesterday but you never know what kind of effort you are going to get from him.

Groce is still learning x's and o's and how to coach

With certain rotations I almost feel like we are playing 3 against 5 out there.

I'm happy we got Stevie Taylor but we dont need more 5'10 players on this team next year. I dont get it.

Pete Chouteau
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 1:03:29 PM

Something tells me that if we win 5 straight in March, we'll all care again.

Felix
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 1:16:29 PM

Pete Chouteau wrote:

Something tells me that if we win 5 straight in March, we'll all care again.

Something tells me that Armon Bassett is not coming back!

Last Edited: 1/23/2011 1:17:27 PM by Felix

bobcatsquared
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 1:29:46 PM

bobcat28 wrote:

I would have liked to have seen DJ take over and make more plays in the second half. Note this doenst mean shoot, but more drive and dish. I think he is tired at the end of games.

I can't get inside DJ's head, but I think he is also frustrated at the end of games. Just a thought. Can't blame him, if true.

Last Edited: 1/23/2011 1:30:11 PM by bobcatsquared

Flomo-genized
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 1:33:22 PM

mcbin wrote:

Sure, I think we'd have a better record if we had Bassett, Coleman, and A. Kellogg along with the existing roster. But that doesn't mean that we are getting the most out of the current roster. I think that the existing talent level is good enough to be better than 5-8 at home, and 8-11 overall. This team should be beating the likes of Miami, Kent, Robert Morris, and Buffalo at home, even if we might be a bit undermanned. For example, yesterday's game was completely winable even with this current roster, if the coaching staff had made any meaningful adjustments at either end of the court in the second half.

Plus, as I've said before, it's not clear to me that the coaching staff had nothing to do with those player defections. Both AB and Kellogg were recruited by this staff, so Groce & Co. are are at least partially responsible for their defections if for no other reason than the fact that they recruited unreliable players. As for Coleman, I don't know the inside story of what went on there, but I do find it a little hard to believe that the staff was completely powerless to stop him from leaving, although it's certainly possible.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to results. This is the third straight season where I feel like the staff is not getting the most out of the players that it has. I was willing to give them a break in year one. Year two I gave them some slack for lack of experience, although I think that the March run evidenced that we had way too much talent to finish with a 7-9 MAC record. By year three, though, this is a trend, and one that I can 't just write off to a continual lack of talent. Again, by year three any lack of talent is on the coaching staff.

Prior to yesterday, we had never lost 4 straight home games in the history of the Convocation Center, while we haven't lost this many home games since the 1910s. And unless we manage to go 7-4 the rest of the way in the MAC, we'll have the first back-to-back-to-back string of losing MAC seasons since the mid-1970s. Again, given how far the MAC has fallen, we shouldn't be setting these kind of records if we were well coached, no matter how far you might think the talent has slipped.

SBH
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 1:33:36 PM

bobcat28 wrote:

That "tunnel vision" remark about Ivo was meant as a compliment and I agree with it. I have no problem with Ivo whatsoever - he's the only guy on this team who can hit a short jumper.

Mike Johnson
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 1:37:05 PM

bobcat28 wrote:

Groce is still learning x's and o's and how to coach.

Brian Knorr had the opportunity to coach under Jim Grobe for a decade or more at AF and OU before being elevated to HC. After he was fired, he said something very much like, "I guess I should have paid closer attention."

How many years did Coach Groce coach under Thad Matta who, at Butler, Xavier and OSU, has shown a certain ability to coach? Was he not paying sufficient attention - as to teaching, inspiring, leading, relating, communicating, organizing, administering, motivating and all other components that comprise the package of intangibles?

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

SBH
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 1:53:38 PM

I agree. Fire in the belly seems to be his calling card. But there sure seems to be a lack of fuel between the ears.

The Optimist
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 2:12:51 PM

Pete Chouteau wrote:

Something tells me that if we win 5 straight in March, we'll all care again.

We started 1-4 in the MAC last year too...

Anyway, I'll always care. I'm a fan.

I've seen crazier things happen.

Ozcat
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RE: Done with caring

Posted: 1/23/2011 10:51:20 PM

Mike Johnson wrote:

How many years did Coach Groce coach under Thad Matta who, at Butler, Xavier and OSU, has shown a certain ability to coach? Was he not paying sufficient attention - as to teaching, inspiring, leading, relating, communicating, organizing, administering, motivating and all other components that comprise the package of intangibles?

I love me some Thad and the Bucks, which is no secret around here. However, while Matta has had extreme success on the court, I would never equate it to his X and O skill. I've watched Painter and Izzo run circles around Matta when coaching in-game.

Matta's absolute strength is recruiting. You don't have to be a genius with the dry-erase board when you have the likes of Oden, Conley, Turner, Sullinger, etc.

OU does not have those guys. Groce has shown an ability to recruit, but much work needs done on his in-game skill.

I cannot help but think too how much quicker Keely and Baltic would be improving if they were being coached by an actual big. Losing coach Rhodes appears to be hurting our bigs. Who knows, maybe we've even lost the chance to recruit better bigs because they don't like the idea of being coached by a former PG.

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