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Topic:  Wonderful guest column in the Post

Topic:  Wonderful guest column in the Post
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sargentfan
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Member Since: 3/16/2005
Post Count: 917

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  Message Not Read  Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/2/2011 10:40:41 AM 
Finally an intelligent person has written to the Post with a well thought out and very academic opinion!  If someone did a survey that this person has suggested and it still came out with a negative view of Athletics then I could deal with that.  But this is why I never trust surveys because people are always taking shortcuts or setting them up with some kind of bias, very few seem to actually do it the right way.
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mcbin
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 951

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/2/2011 6:29:08 PM 
sargentfan wrote:
Finally an intelligent person has written to the Post with a well thought out and very academic opinion!  If someone did a survey that this person has suggested and it still came out with a negative view of Athletics then I could deal with that.  But this is why I never trust surveys because people are always taking shortcuts or setting them up with some kind of bias, very few seem to actually do it the right way.


Very true. Everything can be skewed a different way, based on what outcome a particular person wants to achieve. That's why folks like Alan are first to throw up anything negative or bashing athletics, while leaving this type of thing by the wayside.
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,233

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/2/2011 6:40:38 PM 
mcbin wrote:
sargentfan wrote:
Finally an intelligent person has written to the Post with a well thought out and very academic opinion!  If someone did a survey that this person has suggested and it still came out with a negative view of Athletics then I could deal with that.  But this is why I never trust surveys because people are always taking shortcuts or setting them up with some kind of bias, very few seem to actually do it the right way.


Very true. Everything can be skewed a different way, based on what outcome a particular person wants to achieve. That's why folks like Alan are first to throw up anything negative or bashing athletics, while leaving this type of thing by the wayside.


Ben, please see my response to DA in another thread to get a clearer picture of what I've been saying.  Also, has anyone actually seen this survey?  If so, please post it here so we can read it and offer our comments and perhaps criticism.

As for this letter to the editor, this is the first I've seen it.   Based on the writer's Linkedin profile, he does have a good deal of credibility in the field of market research which this survey claims to be.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/caryovermeyer

Last Edited: 2/2/2011 7:01:32 PM by Alan Swank
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,777

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/2/2011 9:03:45 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
mcbin wrote:
sargentfan wrote:
Finally an intelligent person has written to the Post with a well thought out and very academic opinion!  If someone did a survey that this person has suggested and it still came out with a negative view of Athletics then I could deal with that.  But this is why I never trust surveys because people are always taking shortcuts or setting them up with some kind of bias, very few seem to actually do it the right way.


Very true. Everything can be skewed a different way, based on what outcome a particular person wants to achieve. That's why folks like Alan are first to throw up anything negative or bashing athletics, while leaving this type of thing by the wayside.


Ben, please see my response to DA in another thread to get a clearer picture of what I've been saying.  Also, has anyone actually seen this survey?  If so, please post it here so we can read it and offer our comments and perhaps criticism.

As for this letter to the editor, this is the first I've seen it.   Based on the writer's Linkedin profile, he does have a good deal of credibility in the field of market research which this survey claims to be.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/caryovermeyer


Trust me, Al.  You may know more about the Xs and Os of basketball and football than I.  But I know a good deal about survey research, and the methodology of this survey stinks. I used to teach mass communication research methodology in a former life. To be truthful much of what passes as "marketing research" is not fundamentally sound.  Guys like Gallup and Rasmussen would be laughing their heads off at this being passed off as legitimate survey research.  See my letter to the Messenger for more details.  It was also sent (in slightly modified form) to the other two rags in town.  I'm using the word "rag" with all the best connotations attached thereto.

Last Edited: 2/2/2011 9:11:30 PM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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bigbobcat
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Member Since: 11/27/2010
Post Count: 36

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/2/2011 10:30:11 PM 
The whole study and related survey can be found at the Center for College Affordability & Productivity webpage here:

http://www.centerforcollegeaffordability.org/uploads/Funding_the_Arms_Race.pdf
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anorris
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Location: Bristol, CT
Post Count: 2,262

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/2/2011 10:55:00 PM 
This chart isn't misleading in any way.
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,777

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/2/2011 11:25:15 PM 
Actually, anorris, it might be misleading, because there is no way to know to what extent the sample was representative of the population of all Ohio Athens campus students (minus medical students, I believe).  This study has no generalizability.  In the total population the ignorance level about those fees might be more or less than reported in the graph. 

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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HeHateMiami
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Mason, OH
Post Count: 473

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/2/2011 11:51:07 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Actually, anorris, it might be misleading, because there is no way to know to what extent the sample was representative of the population of all Ohio Athens campus students (minus medical students, I believe).  This study has no generalizability.  In the total population the ignorance level about those fees might be more or less than reported in the graph. 


I think what anorris is saying is if you don't look at the scale of that graph there appears to be QUITE a difference between the two bars (before realizing the difference is about 10 percentage points) 

Beyond that I have to agree with everything that you and the Post article that this thread links to is saying. Part of my job is to field surveys for several Fortune 100 companies. The methodology that this survey uses stinks.
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The Optimist
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Member Since: 3/16/2007
Location: CLE
Post Count: 5,597

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/2/2011 11:55:10 PM 
And to think I'm using a Center for College Affordability study as a source for my next cluster project.  

I've seen crazier things happen.

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anorris
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Member Since: 7/6/2010
Location: Bristol, CT
Post Count: 2,262

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/3/2011 8:25:38 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Actually, anorris, it might be misleading, because there is no way to know to what extent the sample was representative of the population of all Ohio Athens campus students (minus medical students, I believe).  This study has no generalizability.  In the total population the ignorance level about those fees might be more or less than reported in the graph. 
All true, I just thought that graph in particular was comical, as the only one in the study wherein the scale does not start at 0.  Surely that was just coincidence...

Sad thing is, people will lap it up as fact.
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athena
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 710

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/3/2011 10:27:56 AM 
Yesterday's Messenger also had a letter to the editor (from a different person) pointing out some of the flaws in Vedder's survey... mainly, the very small sample size and the fact that the sampling wasn't random -- the survey was conducted online and solicited voluntary responses, so people most likely had a strong opinion one way or another or they wouldn't have responded in the first place.

The author of the letter pointed out (very politely) that Dr. Vedder needs to stick to economics and leave conducting surveys to people who actually know how to conduct surveys. But I highly doubt that will stop the 'anti-athletic league' faculty members from using those survey results to further their arguments.

lol... I just re-read OCF's post above and realized the letter I'm talking about must've been the one he wrote! Good job, OCF!

Last Edited: 2/3/2011 10:29:13 AM by athena
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OhioCatFan
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,777

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/3/2011 10:29:08 AM 
anorris wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Actually, anorris, it might be misleading, because there is no way to know to what extent the sample was representative of the population of all Ohio Athens campus students (minus medical students, I believe).  This study has no generalizability.  In the total population the ignorance level about those fees might be more or less than reported in the graph. 
All true, I just thought that graph in particular was comical, as the only one in the study wherein the scale does not start at 0.  Surely that was just coincidence...

Sad thing is, people will lap it up as fact.


My bad.  It was late at night after a bad loss, and I was not in the mood to see anyone's humor! :-)

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 14,777

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  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/3/2011 10:35:14 AM 
Thanks, Athena. Yes, that were me! :-)

One minor correction on your otherwise fine summation of my letter.  The sample size was not the problem, it was the lack of randomness.  I pointed out that a SMALLER sample would have been better if it had been chosen randomly and efforts had been made to get a reasonable return rate.  Heck, you can get a fairly good indication of the electoral leanings of the whole State of Ohio with a sample of less than 1,000 if it's done randomly and other good survey techniques are utilized.  

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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intrpdtrvlr
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Member Since: 7/8/2010
Post Count: 177

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/3/2011 2:48:33 PM 
athena wrote:
Yesterday's Messenger also had a letter to the editor (from a different person) pointing out some of the flaws in Vedder's survey... mainly, the very small sample size and the fact that the sampling wasn't random -- the survey was conducted online and solicited voluntary responses, so people most likely had a strong opinion one way or another or they wouldn't have responded in the first place.

The author of the letter pointed out (very politely) that Dr. Vedder needs to stick to economics and leave conducting surveys to people who actually know how to conduct surveys. But I highly doubt that will stop the 'anti-athletic league' faculty members from using those survey results to further their arguments.

lol... I just re-read OCF's post above and realized the letter I'm talking about must've been the one he wrote! Good job, OCF!

Vedder had a reply in today's Post that was pretty interesting.  I think self-selection in the response is a problem, for sure.  It's hard to mitigate that entirely but it clearly needs to be addressed.  However, I'm not sure about the sample size.  If you were to consult someone who handles surveys and representation populations,  you might get a different opinion.  Think Neilsen, unemployment data, etc.  I'm not sure there's anything wrong, statistically, with the size of the sample.

This isn't highly scientific but go somewhere like here:  http://www.custominsight.com/articles/random-sample-calculator.asp
Just to get a feel: I don't think the sample size is that bad in terms of recognized statistical reliability. 

Last Edited: 2/3/2011 2:49:00 PM by intrpdtrvlr

BA - Michigan State '03, MA - Ohio '05, PhD - Ohio '15
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DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/3/2011 3:01:03 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Thanks, Athena. Yes, that were me! :-)

One minor correction on your otherwise fine summation of my letter.  The sample size was not the problem, it was the lack of randomness.  I pointed out that a SMALLER sample would have been better if it had been chosen randomly and efforts had been made to get a reasonable return rate.  Heck, you can get a fairly good indication of the electoral leanings of the whole State of Ohio with a sample of less than 1,000 if it's done randomly and other good survey techniques are utilized.  


OCF has hit the nail on the head with all of his posts on this subject. A sample size of 400 is plenty as long as the variable in question is dichotomous and the sample is RANDOM, which this one was not. There is no way you can generalize from this survey and I'm shocked that Vedder's team would even publish such a report.

I'm a research assistant at the Institute for Public Administration at UD and we would never conduct such poor research. We turn down clients who come to us asking for data to back up their forgone conclusions. A true research question must be objective and neutral to be of any use. 

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/3/2011 3:22:42 PM 
intrpdtrvlr wrote:
athena wrote:
Yesterday's Messenger also had a letter to the editor (from a different person) pointing out some of the flaws in Vedder's survey... mainly, the very small sample size and the fact that the sampling wasn't random -- the survey was conducted online and solicited voluntary responses, so people most likely had a strong opinion one way or another or they wouldn't have responded in the first place.

The author of the letter pointed out (very politely) that Dr. Vedder needs to stick to economics and leave conducting surveys to people who actually know how to conduct surveys. But I highly doubt that will stop the 'anti-athletic league' faculty members from using those survey results to further their arguments.

lol... I just re-read OCF's post above and realized the letter I'm talking about must've been the one he wrote! Good job, OCF!

Vedder had a reply in today's Post that was pretty interesting.  I think self-selection in the response is a problem, for sure.  It's hard to mitigate that entirely but it clearly needs to be addressed.  However, I'm not sure about the sample size.  If you were to consult someone who handles surveys and representation populations,  you might get a different opinion.  Think Neilsen, unemployment data, etc.  I'm not sure there's anything wrong, statistically, with the size of the sample.

This isn't highly scientific but go somewhere like here:  http://www.custominsight.com/articles/random-sample-calculator.asp
Just to get a feel: I don't think the sample size is that bad in terms of recognized statistical reliability. 



The sample size is not the problem. The fact that it is NO WHERE near random is the problem. A much smaller sample size would be fine if it were random.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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Monroe Slavin
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Wonderful guest column in the Post
   Posted: 2/5/2011 2:09:49 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Thanks, Athena. Yes, that were me! :-)

One minor correction on your otherwise fine summation of my letter.  The sample size was not the problem, it was the lack of randomness.  I pointed out that a SMALLER sample would have been better if it had been chosen randomly and efforts had been made to get a reasonable return rate.  Heck, you can get a fairly good indication of the electoral leanings of the whole State of Ohio with a sample of less than 1,000 if it's done randomly and other good survey techniques are utilized.  


OCF has hit the nail on the head with all of his posts on this subject. A sample size of 400 is plenty as long as the variable in question is dichotomous and the sample is RANDOM, which this one was not. There is no way you can generalize from this survey and I'm shocked that Vedder's team would even publish such a report.

I'm a research assistant at the Institute for Public Administration at UD and we would never conduct such poor research. We turn down clients who come to us asking for data to back up their forgone conclusions. A true research question must be objective and neutral to be of any use. 


I find the approach highlighted above to be highly un-American.  I trust that your firm is having financial problems given it's controversial, fringe approach?

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