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Topic:  Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo

Topic:  Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
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Ted Thompson
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  Message Not Read  Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/7/2011 9:42:16 AM 
Use this thread to talk about anything game-related.

Date: February 9th, 2011  7:00 PM

Opponent:  Toledo   (4-15, 1-8 MAC)

Site: Convocation Center

TV: None

Webcast: Free at OhioBobcats.com

Toledo media guide, roster and statistics.

Fan site:  The Launch Pad


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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/8/2011 5:21:13 PM 

As well all know, Toledo is terrible, the lowest-rated team on our schedule by many ratings. Worse than Norfolk State and worse than St. Francis (PA), teams that we had beat by halftime. But then again, Central Michigan wasn't rated much higher than Toledo, and the Rockets do have surprsing wins against Western Michigan and Valparaiso. Then again, both of those were at home. Toledo hasn't won on the road and has had only two single-digit losses on the road, none of them in the MAC.

So what makes Toledo so bad? Well, just about everything. They are in the 300s offensively and defensively. They are one of the absolute worst teams in the nation at committing turnovers. They don't block any shots and get blocked almost more than any team in the country. Their shooting percentages are horrible. The only thing they are good at is that they have shot way more free throws than their opponents. Too bad they make less than 63 percent of them.

Malcom Griffin (6-4) has become their go-to scorer at 13.4 ppg (and 16.4 ppg in MAC play). He's actually shot quite well and has averaged closed to 4 assists per game in MAC games. After him, Reese Holliday (6-4) has averaged just under 11 ppg, but his shooting percentages are terrible. He's made 3 3-pointers all year. He is their best rebounder at 7-plus per game. Jay Shunar (6-1) is the third guard. He's shooting 23 percent.

The forwards are Delino Dear (6-9) and Hayden Humes (6-8), but neither of them are very thick. They average less than 5 rebounds per game each in MAC play and both are shooting around 40 percent in MAC games, which isn't what you want out of forwards.

Zach Leahy (6-0) has started in place of Shunar the last few games, not that he's doing a lot better. 42% on 3s, but he only makes about one per game and his overall shooting percentage isn't good. Anthony Wright (6-6, 260) actually seems to be their best shooter off the bench. He's made 32 of 79 (41 percent) on the year, but he averages less than 3 rebounds in 20 minutes. Justin Anyijong (6-9, 205 but he looks less than that to me) has played rather sparingly this year. He's shot in the 20-30 percent range this year, but he was their second-leading scorer last year and scored 20 against us.

An interesting stat is that Griffin is first in the nation and D.J. Cooper second in assist rate. He assists on 48 percent of his teammate's field goals while he's on the floor. If Toledo made more shots, he'd probably could have a lot of assists. But more than that, it just shows that he is their playmaker.

I think we match up pretty well against this team. I'd really like to see a win by 20-plus points.

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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/8/2011 11:41:45 PM 
I'll be interested to see what Toledo does next year. I think they have six D1 transfers sitting out this year. I wonder what a Toledo practice is like these days...are the transfer players beating up on the others? They could be a real player next year.

I really believe there's no reason for Toledo not to always be a frontrunner in basketball. They're in one of the most urban cities in the MAC, they have a nice recent facility upgrade, and the sustained success of the football team (scheduling, recruiting, and bowl games) suggests that there is commitment towards making Rocket athletics an attractive product.

Tomorrow, I think we'll beat them by 22.
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BobcatSports
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/9/2011 2:06:39 PM 
We're favored by 16.5 points.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/9/2011 3:57:52 PM 
Thanks, Upsan...one interesting fact about Anyijong is that he can shoot the three.  He looks really funny firing them up, but sometimes they drop. 

I saw Toledo vs. BGSU on STO and they looked decent in that game.  Of course, that was a home game for the Rockets.  I can't dispute the fact that Toledo has been a very bad basketball team overall this season.  
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71 BOBCAT
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/9/2011 4:42:24 PM 
I'm taking Toledo with the points for big money.












GO BOBCATS
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/9/2011 11:44:50 PM 
Nobody has any game thoughts?  Hard to judge much when playing such a poor team, but I was mostly pleased with tonight.  We let them make it closer than it needed to be towards the end, making naysaying 71 Bobcat a winner...Even though we were up 25 with 6 to go.

The Coop injury looked really bad at the time...You could hear a pin drop in the convo.  I was surprised to see him starting the 2nd half, then not surprised to see him clearly unable to play before being taken out 2 minutes in, then was surprised again when Groce said he'd be fine.  I'm still not convinced this won't affect him, but we'll see.

Im a happy man when Tommy & Nick are shooting 3s....10 for 19 tonight, nice.  Interesting follow up to the big game in the paint last Saturday with very little 3s. Offense did a great job with ball movement tonight, especially going into the paint and kicking it out for many of those 12 three pointers.  I am pretty happy with this offense right now and think it has improved from mid January.

Ivo is growing quite a pair.  Confidence is building and moving with more authority, I like it.

Boy did the refs have it out for Nick tonight...5 fouls, 4.5 of which were BS.

For me, I still say DJ, Tommy, Nick, Ivo & Devo are the clear cut top 5 and don't see any reason why those guys dont get closeto 35 minutes each game.  Reggie still just isn't able to finish and play with some ferocity, and Asown has been pretty frustrating.  I like TJ as the versatile 6th man.

2 big tests coming up for this team. 


Andrew Ruck
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tdcz756
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 12:08:04 AM 
Good thoughts Ruck. Glad to see some interest. I am sure by the time the next loss rolls around folks will be ready to contribute again.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 12:17:49 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:

For me, I still say DJ, Tommy, Nick, Ivo & Devo are the clear cut top 5 and don't see any reason why those guys dont get closeto 35 minutes each game.  Reggie still just isn't able to finish and play with some ferocity, and Asown has been pretty frustrating.  I like TJ as the versatile 6th man.


You want the bench playing 25 total minutes?  That's Charlie-esque.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 12:41:40 AM 
How much of tonight was us playing well and how much was Rocket's not very good?


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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 1:20:31 AM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
How much of tonight was us playing well and how much was Rocket's not very good?


Before DJ left, we were able to do whatever we wanted.  Even in the second half before we quit, we had our way out there.  Toledo's very bad, but our guys were sharp.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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tdcz756
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 8:21:15 AM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
How much of tonight was us playing well and how much was Rocket's not very good?


Plenty of words after the CMU/Miami/Kent/Buffalo losses and not even an "attboy" after these wins?  Shameful. Coaches and players who take the abuse should also be praised when hey come out and create  a solid win even over a bad team. They did not play down to the level of the bad team like so many nights we see teams do including Russ' alma mater SIU beating a clearly superior Wichita State team. The Cats asserted themselves, found the open man and adjusted to the trap coming on the post. Last game they found the wide open post and exploited it. They are a very inexperienced team fining their strengths and weakness' and putting it together over the course of the year.

Bobcat Warriors' words were not lost on me. I will continue to give praise when it is deserved otherwise the negative reinforcement takes over. I am pretty sure we have some child psych majors here who could ennlighten us as to how constantly scolding but never praising affects behavior of a child (and makes for that parent I personally love to be around) long term. I look here  and see missing names: oubjc, DCF. Pataskala, Casper71,Graff, OU77BJC,The Situation, Bobcat 28 just to cherry pick the most egregious of angry posters and I am dismayed that as I look back at those threads they only come out after a loss. Where is the love? This fanbase wants athletes and athletics in general  to compete at a higher level then they have to look inside and become supporters and not just detractors, otherwise no amount of wins is acceptable and every loss is a major setback. False expectations of any program to have to live up to. When March comes and this team actually acheives you guys are really not going to jump back on the band wagon are you?

Hypothetically Monroe, How much of your daily work  life depends not on the fact that you may suck as a human but that Ohio gave you a superior education?   See how that works?  The team is making progress and you probably don't suck but both deserve a little credit in the process.

Last Edited: 2/10/2011 8:23:48 AM by tdcz756

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anorris
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 8:29:23 AM 
Good to see Ivo continue to play well and put up 16 again.  Would've tied his career high, if not for his explosion last game.

Any time Tommy and Nick get that many clean looks, you have to be a happy camper.  7-14 and 3-5 are phenomenal from outside the arc.  Tommy with a career high 7 threes, and he was very efficient doing it.

Wasn't too sure about Asown's two three point attempts.  I know he has made a couple out there, but I think his shot is a much higher percentage if he takes a step inside the arc, similar to DeVaughn's "outside" shot, which reminds me of KVK's baseline shots.

81% of our field goals (22/27) were assisted.  Like that a lot.

As mentioned, this was against a team that hasn't won a road game in 3 years, but the win felt good -- never in doubt.

Here's to hoping that we can take some confidence from our romp through the West, finish it off at Western Saturday, and ride it into Alumni Arena.  That will probably be a very tough game.
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 9:03:07 AM 
Bobcat Dragon wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:

For me, I still say DJ, Tommy, Nick, Ivo & Devo are the clear cut top 5 and don't see any reason why those guys dont get closeto 35 minutes each game.  Reggie still just isn't able to finish and play with some ferocity, and Asown has been pretty frustrating.  I like TJ as the versatile 6th man.


You want the bench playing 25 total minutes?  That's Charlie-esque.


Well, I said close to, not exactly 35.  Foul trouble and blowouts alone would take those numbers down...But in a game that stays close and all 5 are healthy, out of foul trouble, and in rythm...Yeah I have no problem with just 25 minutes from the bench.  Certainly at least 30 from each.  I realize that is unconventional, and I don't normally have that approach, but I think with the way the roster is currently playing, it is what is best for giving us a chance to win.  Those 5 are head and shoulders above every one else right now.  Keely could explode, I see tons of potential in Rico...but right now it just isn't there.

Toledo is bad...but they had more than a few shots fall.  They're one of the most awkward teams I've seen play.


Andrew Ruck
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 12:55:04 PM 
Andrew, I've been thinking lately along the same lines. My ideal situation would have three players, DJ (if ankle allows), Ivo and Devo (if not in foul trouble) getting around 35 minutes per game; Nick and Tommy getting something a tad under 35 min/game; with TJ being next in line for min/game. For Ohio to beat the best in the MAC, DJ, Ivo and Devo have to be on the floor for most of the game, IMO.
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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 2:04:26 PM 
I think it's become pretty clear those are our best five, especially offensively.

The rest of the guys have been inconsistent. Hall was good last night. Johnson was good agaisnt Central Michigan. Sayles is consistently tough, but he's made just 7 of 36 3-pointers and gives you next to nothing offensively. Hall is shooting 35.8 percent overall and Johnson 31.1 percent, both have been somewhat better in MAC play. Keely is still our best rebounder, although Baltic has done a much better job lately. Keely also is our our only shot-blocker.

I guess I can't argue with the idea of giving 30-35 minutes to all five starters in a typical game and hopefully someone off the bench steps up when needed. That still leaves about 15 minutes for Keely and Sayles to share and maybe 20 minutes for Hall and Johnson to share.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 5:06:46 PM 

The team has definitely improved lately in identifying offensive opportunities and making the right passes.  Against NIU, that meant getting the ball to our post players.  Against Toledo, that meant our post players getting the ball back out to the open perimeter shooters.  Gotta also give some props to Tommy and Nick for knocking down their open shots at a very good clip against Toledo.

Passing looked extremely crisp vs. Toledo.  This wasn't just because Toledo isn't a good team. 

Also, I'm seeing some positive evolution in D.J. Cooper's game.  He's always stuffed the stat sheet, and his assists, steals and rebounding have always been exceptional for a PG.  However, what I'm noticing now is that DJ is working on another part of his game...his own shot selection.  Seems that he has taken a step forward in making the right decisions on the floor even more consistently than before.  As his assists totals show, he's always looked for the open man.  Now I see him taking that to an even higher level.   

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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 5:12:50 PM 
Regarding D.J.: Whenever I find myself getting antsy about his game I force myself to click on his bio and confirm that he is, indeed, only a sophomore.

Then the microscopic issue have with a facet of his game seems petty. 

For him to be discerning with his shots at all is a step ahead of where I expect a sophomore at such a filibustering-required position.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/10/2011 10:56:37 PM 
tdcz756 wrote:
Monroe Slavin wrote:
How much of tonight was us playing well and how much was Rocket's not very good?


Plenty of words after the CMU/Miami/Kent/Buffalo losses and not even an "attboy" after these wins?  Shameful. Coaches and players who take the abuse should also be praised when hey come out and create  a solid win even over a bad team. They did not play down to the level of the bad team like so many nights we see teams do including Russ' alma mater SIU beating a clearly superior Wichita State team. The Cats asserted themselves, found the open man and adjusted to the trap coming on the post. Last game they found the wide open post and exploited it. They are a very inexperienced team fining their strengths and weakness' and putting it together over the course of the year.

Bobcat Warriors' words were not lost on me. I will continue to give praise when it is deserved otherwise the negative reinforcement takes over. I am pretty sure we have some child psych majors here who could ennlighten us as to how constantly scolding but never praising affects behavior of a child (and makes for that parent I personally love to be around) long term. I look here  and see missing names: oubjc, DCF. Pataskala, Casper71,Graff, OU77BJC,The Situation, Bobcat 28 just to cherry pick the most egregious of angry posters and I am dismayed that as I look back at those threads they only come out after a loss. Where is the love? This fanbase wants athletes and athletics in general  to compete at a higher level then they have to look inside and become supporters and not just detractors, otherwise no amount of wins is acceptable and every loss is a major setback. False expectations of any program to have to live up to. When March comes and this team actually acheives you guys are really not going to jump back on the band wagon are you?

Hypothetically Monroe, How much of your daily work  life depends not on the fact that you may suck as a human but that Ohio gave you a superior education?   See how that works?  The team is making progress and you probably don't suck but both deserve a little credit in the process.


I believe i read and heard that Tommy had 14 3-point shots, that Toledo only had 5 offensive rebounds and that we outrebounded them pretty much.  These are good.  But that has not been are season.  Are good teams really going to give our 3-point aces that many good shots? 

I'm as much of an O-H-I-O as anyone.  Bigger.  But an objective look at our performance to date either concludes that we have not much talent or that we have underperformed (or some combo of the two).  You seem to mistake detailed, objective analsysis for negativity.


Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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tdcz756
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/11/2011 12:10:17 AM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
I believe i read and heard that Tommy had 14 3-point shots, that Toledo only had 5 offensive rebounds and that we outrebounded them pretty much.  These are good.   .


That would have been just perfect.

As for the rest of the question about whether they are going to leave Nick and Tommy open I suspect Tommy's answer in the post game was pretty spot on. Teams are going to have to pick their poison and the job of the players and coaches are to react to that. Toledo looked at tape and decided after D.Wash and Baltic went off they would shut down the middle. Patton on the other hand only let Freeman and Kellogg combine for 3  3's taken in the first half by keeping both of them covered and not letting those defenders help off the ball. They literally did not even reach out to sti\op a player as he was blowing by them 2 feet away.



Monroe Slavin wrote:
I'm as much of an O-H-I-O as anyone.  Bigger.  But an objective look at our performance to date either concludes that we have not much talent or that we have underperformed (or some combo of the two).  You seem to mistake detailed, objective analsysis for negativity.


It is not analytic to blast the team. Go back to the multiple threads following the Miami/Kent and Buffalo games to see the avalanche of criticism that is just emotional and not analytical at all. My challenge to be positive or at least constructively critical and look for a little good. The fact that there is not multiple threads after this win and folks can't even spit out a "good game" can't be lost on you totally.

Monroe Slavin wrote:
Agree; IT"S ALL ABOUT THE DEFENSE.

Which seems unfortunate for us...


Monroe Slavin wrote:
I knew it.  Once again Samarco goes for 47 on us.


Monroe Slavin wrote:
Hi.  Boxie says the two of us played 40 minutes and had a combined one more rebound than a dead guy.


Monroe Slavin wrote:
Oppo finishing w/larger number.


Monroe Slavin wrote:
1) kents just does not turn it over.  (Irrelevant, stupid, irrational and probably not true remark for the benefit's of the love's constant rant that Geno is a turnover machine)

2)  First half:  kents is able to get close to the rim and score and we can't--leading to their spurt to go up 10 and hit halftime with a lead of six.


Monroe Slavin wrote:
Not a fatal loss.  But an unacceptable one.  We just can't stop the oppo at key moments.


Monroe Slavin wrote:
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE DEFENSE.


Just a smattering but most are like these. Not sure about what you see but the english language has definitions. None of these responses fall into the definition of detailed or objective. Maybe you can enlighten me as to how there is positive in these responses.The fact that we won 4 of the last 5 and there is more threads talking about the bad stuff going on rather than the complimenting the good and the amazing silence on the board following the win. That seems onminously and equally a negative approach to ythe club. . Not really singling you out but looking at the entire cadre of folks who are here following a loss and the lack of folks here when things are starting to come together. Maybe it is just my imagination. Maybe it just seems like all those folks who are here emotionally talking about letdowns, non defenders, missed shots etc are now all standing up and clapping their hands and rootin for the cats vocally and in written form following the wins.  

Last Edited: 2/11/2011 12:12:57 AM by tdcz756

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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/11/2011 10:26:08 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:

Well, I said close to, not exactly 35.  Foul trouble and blowouts alone would take those numbers down...But in a game that stays close and all 5 are healthy, out of foul trouble, and in rythm...Yeah I have no problem with just 25 minutes from the bench.  Certainly at least 30 from each.  I realize that is unconventional, and I don't normally have that approach, but I think with the way the roster is currently playing, it is what is best for giving us a chance to win.  Those 5 are head and shoulders above every one else right now.  Keely could explode, I see tons of potential in Rico...but right now it just isn't there.

Toledo is bad...but they had more than a few shots fall.  They're one of the most awkward teams I've seen play.


It's awful difficult for big men to average that many minutes.  They just have to work so hard on every possession compared to guards and wings.  30 minutes is a more reasonable expectation.  As an example, Leon Williams only averaged 30 minutes a game one season he was here and that was 30.6.   You have to have at least three viable big men or you can be in real trouble.  They don't have to be great but that have to be functional.  A lot is made about Jeremy Fears' meltdown in 2006 as the reason for our disappointing year but the fact that we only had 2 post players, one of whom was a freshman (Tillman) hurt us even more.  The losses of Terren Harbut and Clay McGowen were huge. Leon had to carry the load almost entirely by himself.
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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Official Game 24 Thread: Toledo
   Posted: 2/11/2011 5:06:36 PM 
756--There is certainly some merit to your point.  But to choose a sampling like that of my comments...is that representative of me, of all others...Are those comments during the time of us winning 4 of the last 5?  The more I look at those quotes, the more they seem chosen to only to make your points.  They ignore other/positive stuff that I said and are out of time and context.

Do you know the type of critique faulty sampling can get you on this board?!

Plus, I was misquoted.

Last Edited: 2/11/2011 5:08:34 PM by Monroe Slavin


Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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