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Topic: Groce is on the right track

Topic: Groce is on the right track

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Wilson Hall Record Holder
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Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 3:38:22 AM

I have always known this to be true. The train just had some unexpected maintenance issues that slowed its departure from the station. Make no mistake though, Groce has the Cats headed in the right direction.

I don't want to talk too much about the season that just came to an end on the court (the entire season is not over until the season ending meetings with the players of course) as I have already voiced my opinions about how bad this year's team was though as one should expect they were better by tournament time.

I actually prefer to look to next season and beyond as I think I grasp the vision that Groce has for the program.

As I look at the makeup of the roster, especially in the backcourt I don't see a normal progression of where certain players sit the bench until it is their time. One can make an argument about Stevie Taylor but there is nothing about that young man's game nor his talent that tells me he is merely going to spend his freshman year "spelling" Cooper so DJ will be fresh at the end of games. No, this next season will unveil Groce's intention all along as I see it.

He not only wants an uptempo team but he wants no let up in talent as one player leaves the floor and the next one steps onto it. He wants to overwhelm the other team, even if that team has superior talent, with a relentless energy and high level of play that eventually wears the other team out. He wants athletes at all wing positions that will pressure the ball and disrupt the offense once the ball crosses halfcourt. This to me is possibly why Freeman didn't play that much at the beginning of the season as he was a "defensive" defender and Groce wants "offensive" or attacking defenders in order to force his uptempo pace.

Not having a shooter as accurate as Freeman will be missed but it's hardly necessary given the high volume of possessions and open looks that will result from the ability of all wing players to drive and either kick out to an open shooter if the defense collapses or finish themselves or dish to a post player.

Simply put there's too many talented players with no clear "superstar" to dominate minutes other than Cooper. I do expect DJ to be held more accountable in terms of his shot selection and Groce will have the talent to be able help Cooper "develop" a better understand of shot selection. :-) The departures of Coleman and Kinney as well as Horne served to delay the train coming out of the station. I believe Bassett was always a one and done player.

The post players are still in need of being recruited at a high enough level to deal with teams who have the guards to force Ohio into a slower half court game where they pound the ball inside against us. I'd like to think that it's obvious to everyone that it's much easier to establish Groce's uptempo style by bringing the wing players 1st then getting the superior post players a year or two later to compliment that style. This is also why earlier in the season I posted my desire for O.U. to lock up Groce before he became a hot commodity to higher profile programs.

One last point is about Stevie Taylor specifically. I have heard of him in here as the next D.J Cooper. That to me is an insult to Stevie. He is the 1st Stevie Taylor who would be starting next year if DJ Cooper weren't on the team already. He is about to become the favorite player of many fans in year one. He and Cooper will compliment each others style of play, not replicate each others. No one as quick as Stevie has played for O.U. before. He will light up the convo with his style in a different way than DJ.

Administrators: please don't let there be another system crash so when certain people question my honesty when I remind the forum of my words about Stevie I'll be able to refer them this posting lol

Ohio69
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 9:11:39 AM

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

I.... I do expect DJ to be held more accountable in terms of his shot selection and Groce will have the talent to be able help Cooper "develop" a better understand of shot selection. :-)

So many people have complained about this Cooper kid that I think we should just cut him.

Seriouly though, his shot selection doesn't make my top 10 problems with the team this year or next year.

Last Edited: 3/12/2011 9:57:58 AM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

Mike Johnson
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 10:17:57 AM

For Ohio to seriously challenge Kent for the regular season title next year, let's hope that Geno Ford doesn't recruit someone as good as or better than Rod Sherman - who if I recall correctly is the only player Ford loses.

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Pataskala
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 10:53:57 AM

Ohio69 wrote:

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

I.... I do expect DJ to be held more accountable in terms of his shot selection and Groce will have the talent to be able help Cooper "develop" a better understand of shot selection. :-)

So many people have complained about this Cooper kid that I think we should just cut him.

Seriouly though, his shot selection doesn't make my top 10 problems with the team this year or next year.

I think shot selection was not a problem specific to DJ; it's just that his ill-advised shots always seemed to come when the team needed to run some clock. I have bigger concerns with some others. If TJ Hall wants to shoot threes next year, he should spend the next six months trying 500 or so a day from beyond the arc. Otherwise, he should keep his feet firmly planted inside the line. This season he was 24 of 89 (27%) behind the arc; 27 of 57 (47%) from inside. Two is better than zero. Others (Baltic on occasion and Johnson, among others) forced a lot of shots that weren't there with plenty of time to shoot. There's no sin in passing to reset.

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tiptondevilcat
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 11:34:38 AM

All due respect 69, if you believe this to be true you have failed in my eyes to have any legitimate knowledge of basketball. I have rerun several games over and over off of my DVR and my on demand tab on the ohiobobcats site. I can unequivocally without any doubt in my mind give you at least 70 examples of critical shots taken that should have been assists and can show you at least 7 games that would have been won had Groce mentored his point guard properly.

As much as I find this Wilson fellow to be pretentious and reeking with the odor of crap every time I read his stuff I have to agree with him on this point and post. I hope Stevie Taylor is everything he is supposed to be having only seen clips on Youtube but as I read this I fully agree with the premises Wilson makes regarding Groce. The question unquestionably is whether Coach will have a light come on or grow some balls and reign in his point guard who is without a doubt without conscience passing up shooters and shots better than the ones he has in most situations. Not having the ball in Washington who has made significant free throws down the stretch all year, or Freeman's hands who always makes great decisions and a ton of free throws the other night was disgraceful and did not go unnoticed by the TV commentators or knowledgable basketball fans who follow Ohio closely or from afar. Anyone who thinks Cooper is taking good shots is enamored of the kid or just does not know what the game is all about.

For this team to go on and win the point guard must be come the distributor and decision maker that he is more than capable of being. His strengths lie in his vision, speed and passing ability, He is a fairly capable shooter and his greatest shots have come off the ball reversal and movement when it comes back to him with his feet set. All this early season talk about not trusting team mates is crap and only enables the situation. He has a ton of ways to score the ball if he would quit choking them off and get them the ball where they need it.He is a very special player but will not be a complete player till he opens himself up to the team concept.

Last Edited: 3/12/2011 11:37:33 AM by tiptondevilcat

perimeterpost
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 12:40:37 PM

this thread has an odd vibe to it but i'm going to wade in tentatively and add my two cents here about DJ Cooper.

I can say without a doubt DJ Cooper is my favorite OHIO student athlete of all time. I didn't say greatest, I said favorite. I've never met him, but if I did I'd hi-5 the shit out of the guy because I absolutely love to watch him play. I've neve cheered out loud watching sports by myself as much as I do when I'm watching Coop on my computer screen. His game is so smooth and I love how gritty and tough he is.

So when I see people on here going after Coop for his shot selection, etc. I get a little defensive. I think there's a lot of things this team should be more concerned about (defense, defense, defense) before nitpicking on it's best player, BUT DJ is a ~30% 3 point shooter and he does tend to fire from deep at critical times.

To me it seems like DJ shoots 3's based on the feeling of the game, you can almost predict when he'll heave one up because they almost always come at a point in the game where it feels like a dagger 3 would really put the game away, or change the momentum, or get the crowd back into it(home), or take the crowd out of it (away), etc. I think this comes from the MACC game and the Georgetown game last year. Coop and AB swaggered the other team's faces off, and they did it with devistating 3 pointers. Go back and watch the Akron game at the convo this year, there's a stretch where Coop hits three 3s in a row, all from back by the concession stand. They came just as Kron was starting to make a push, and DJ crushed that run with his 3s. Unfortunately I think he goes to that a little too often.

But I like that part of DJ, I like that he wants the ball in his hands at critical times and that he wants to control the momemtum. What I'd like to see from Coop is a Freeman like commitment to shooting 10,000 3 pointers in the off season. I'm no coach, and it might be a bad idea, but in theory I'd love to see #5 add an effective 3 point shot to his game.

This team has a ton of talent, what it lacks is lock down defense and the attention span to stay focused for 40 minutes when the stakes aren't high or they don't have a chip on their shoulder. To me that's a much bigger factor in OHIO being regular season champs next year then Coop's decision making.

I'm sad the season is over but I enjoyed watching them play. Can't wait till next year. Go Cats!

Last Edited: 3/12/2011 12:44:11 PM by perimeterpost

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Monroe Slavin
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 2:04:08 PM

My verdict is not in on Groce yet. He's not a bad coach but he hasn't conclusively proven that he's a fine coach. From a distance it appears that he is not able to get his team, his players to play better...to improve...to do the right TEAM things.

I'm not sure how Groce's desire for certain kinds of players who play a certain style of ball gains him any credit. Who cares what he desires; it's the product he's able to generate on the court that matters.

You want to know about our team? Are you capable of taking off the green-colored glasses and acknowledging a reasonable attempt at objective analysis?:

We are not tough enough. Part of this is attitude. Part of this is lack of size and strength--particularly at power forward and center. Part of this is the will and discipline to do do the right things. To do the right things all of the time--not for some games or parts of same games.

We are not big enough,. We are going to have two point guards who, while apparently pretty good players, are short. I worry about their ability to defend. Due to their height and or the nature of their games, they give us no ability to post up and I'm betting that you'll see that they can get in trouble underneath due to inability to pass around or over the big guys down there. See the game against Kansas for how we lack size overall.

Our talent is decent. Among the better teams in the MAC, perhaps. But it needs to be better. I know that it's tough to do but we need one or two really, really good players. Especially at power forward or center. Lacking some real difference makers and 'adding in' the loss of Devo and Tommy, we have some work to do.

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oubobcatjohn
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 6:31:04 PM

I think Groce is an excellent coach overall. He recruits talent. Compared to O'Shea that had players that never got off the bench for 4 years like King, Sayles, and Annen. Groce is getting impact players who are contributors from day 1. Early returns are very good for the class of Cooper, Baltic and Keely and pretty good for the freshmen class of Kellogg, Johnson and Hall. Even if Groce has a complete bust in recruiting the next two years we are ok with those six. Kinney looked pretty good before he left the program. Just developing the guys we got should help, but Groce has more on the way With Taylor and Goard. A mix of transfers Offutt, Smith and Mitchell should provide some more experience and depth. Now that this team is 100% his he will own this baby. That means winning and championships. His system, his talent. Groce either finds a recruit who can play right away in the rotation or he pockets the schollie and waits for a transfer or recruit who will. He isn't about filling the roster with dead wood. That comes back to bit a team with short bench.

SBH
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 6:48:49 PM

You must have seen something in TJ Hall and, to a lesser extent, Ricardo Johnson, that eluded me this year.

Ohio69
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 6:52:12 PM

tiptondevilcat wrote:

All due respect 69, if you believe this to be true you have failed in my eyes to have any legitimate knowledge of basketball..

Bite me. Such arrogance...

I'm not saying Cooper can't improve. But, he is not a major problem. Good luck in your quest for the perfect point guard.

Last Edited: 3/12/2011 7:26:39 PM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

OhioCatFan
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 7:23:01 PM

perimeterpost wrote:

. . . I can say without a doubt DJ Cooper is my favorite OHIO student athlete of all time. I didn't say greatest, I said favorite. I've never met him, but if I did I'd hi-5 the shit out of the guy because I absolutely love to watch him play. I've neve cheered out loud watching sports by myself as much as I do when I'm watching Coop on my computer screen. His game is so smooth and I love how gritty and tough he is. . . .

I very much understand where you are coming from. While I won't say "favorite of all time," I would say that DJ is my favorite Ohio player since the 1960s. I just love to see him dish off those assists. The guy has eyes in the back of his head and has great court awareness. I simply marvel at some of his assists. Though I've never met him either, his style of play kind of reminds me of my childhood hero -- Ernie Banks. He really seems to love the game and likes making other folks look good. He's a real team player. This is not to overlook the fact the he does put up some questionable shots from NBA three point range (or more), and he's made some bad decisions in crunch time, and missed a potential game-winning foul shot. But overall, he's our best and most exciting player. Without him, we'd have been lucky to win five games this year. And, for the record, I don't believe the Mr. Taylor is faster and quicker than DJ. I don't think that's possible.

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Wilson Hall Record Holder
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 9:15:14 PM

tiptondevilcat wrote:

As much as I find this Wilson fellow to be pretentious and reeking with the odor of crap every time I read his stuff I have to agree with him on this point and post. I hope Stevie Taylor is everything he is supposed to be having only seen clips on Youtube but as I read this I fully agree with the premises Wilson makes regarding Groce. The question unquestionably is whether Coach will have a light come on or grow some balls and reign in his point guard who is without a doubt without conscience passing up shooters and shots better than the ones he has in most situations. Not having the ball in Washington who has made significant free throws down the stretch all year, or Freeman's hands who always makes great decisions and a ton of free throws the other night was disgraceful and did not go unnoticed by the TV commentators or knowledgable basketball fans who follow Ohio closely or from afar. Anyone who thinks Cooper is taking good shots is enamored of the kid or just does not know what the game is all about.

For this team to go on and win the point guard must be come the distributor and decision maker that he is more than capable of being. His strengths lie in his vision, speed and passing ability, He is a fairly capable shooter and his greatest shots have come off the ball reversal and movement when it comes back to him with his feet set. All this early season talk about not trusting team mates is crap and only enables the situation. He has a ton of ways to score the ball if he would quit choking them off and get them the ball where they need it.He is a very special player but will not be a complete player till he opens himself up to the team concept.

I couldn't care less about what you think of me and your expert opinion as to my personality flaws but if my posts reek of crap then go back and show where my basketball points were wrong. Please show us all where reality proved my basketball assessment full of crap as you say. I'm never going to be right 100% of the time obviously but my invitation to you personally to go over every single thing I say to determine what points I miss on and which ones I am spot on about is an open one. Have at it.

I will take a guess and say that your name indicates you're a fan of Ethan Jacobs. I went on record a long time ago stating that he is nothing more than a project that will offer nothing to the program in his 1st year (please point out the crap in that assessment if you don't mind) so perhaps this is where your disdain for me and/or my posts originates but it's just a guess. I will go even further about Jacobs however. I think his recruitment was a move by Groce to counter Akron's signing of Zeke Marshall which on the surface would make sense but Jacobs simply is soft at this point and doesn't like to be banged around and definitely doesn't look to initiate contact. Add to that my belief that he simply isn't accustomed to the level of athleticism he now has to face on a practice to practice basis, let alone a game to game basis compared to what he saw in his conference in high school and it makes perfect sense as to why his 1st year would play out the way it did. I hope that if he stays here he gets in the weight room to add not only strength but confidence to play at this level. Being a good outside shooter who can run fast simply doesn't cut it when you're 6'10 or 6'11 if you can't man your position 1st.

That previous paragraph was just for you. (am I being pretentious again?)

Now regarding DJ's shot selection that I mentioned in my initial post --- you seemed to have a bigger problem with it than I do. I realized coming into this season that the loss of Stevie Coleman was the biggest loss of any we had. Bassett served as not only O.U.'s best scoring talent last season but also as DJ's security blanket. When Coleman left, there was absolutely no one else for Cooper to pass to, The post player were horrid at the beginning of the season, Freeman can't create his own shot and therefore easy to guard and everyone else was a freshman with all the challenges that they must face. I saw the frustration in DJ's eyes as it was just him out there and no one else was coming with him.

That is why Groce let him go so to speak. An ill advised shot from DJ was no worse than any of the other options at the season's start. My point was a bit tongue in cheek and meant to convey that if Cooper developed any bad habits as result of this season then there will be plenty of other talented options to allow Groce to reign him back in which is always, always better than having to prod a a player to step up to the challenge of competing when adversity hits.

I'm not so sure that you understood why DJ took the shots he did because your comments about his selection and more to the point the timing of his shots never included anything that speaks to understanding why he was like that. Only that you didn't like it.

Maybe you prefer that lesser players take shots just to have someone else other than one player take them. I wouldn't disagree or agree with you if that is your stance. I do understand however why DJ took the shots he did.

Wilson Hall Record Holder
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 9:41:19 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

To be honest I'm not sure if your words are directed at me so if they are not then disregard my next statement

If you accuse me of having green colored glasses as you say then you must have a memory loss when I stated near the beginning of the MAC season that this team was horrid and went on to single out our post players. You even responded with a post that summarily disagreed with me which is irrelevant. What is relevant is that I can speak a negative truth as easily as I can a positive one. My posts tend to have a bent that speaks more to understanding what is happening rather "knowing" what is happening.

Again if that comment was not directed at me then forget I said anything about it.

Now in regards to your words "Who cares what he desires; it's the product he's able to generate on the court that matters." That statement speaks to someone who doesn't know/understand and doesn't really want to know/understand what the "plan" is. Just that wins are the result when all is said and done.

On one level I have no problem with that statement at all. What does bother me is the implication that if you don't care then it's an issue where caring a.k.a. understanding the plan is immaterial. In other words what you say and think matters more than anyone else who says or thinks something differently. Obviously I would strongly disagree with that but I understand that your words are what most fans feel. I'm just not most fans so it's all good in the end. We both want O.U. to win :-)

giacomo
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 9:41:31 PM

How silly is this thread? We have one of the best players in the MAC. He is not the problem. We had a good chance to win, but it didn't happen. We don't have the luxury of a Wisconsin, who gets a bid after losing In their tourney. We improved as the year went on and lost after a few bad bounces. We'll be back next year.

cc-cat
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 9:42:41 PM

Despite the incredible knowledge and scouting prowess of so many on this board. I think we better wait for Stevie to dribble a ball on a college court before we knight him the the second best player and pushing DJ. We need him to contribute as a Freshman, which given the hype, I am sure he will.

Wilson Hall Record Holder
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 11:05:46 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

We are not big enough,. We are going to have two point guards who, while apparently pretty good players, are short. I worry about their ability to defend. Due to their height and or the nature of their games, they give us no ability to post up and I'm betting that you'll see that they can get in trouble underneath due to inability to pass around or over the big guys down there. See the game against Kansas for how we lack size overall.

That's a very real issue especially if both are on the floor at the same time which I anticipate seeing for stretches at a time.

What I expect however is what I stated earlier in that the Cats will initiate their defense just as the ball crosses half court and even 3/4 to full court with the intent being to get the other teams out of their rhythm offensively and to force bad shots and turnovers and again to just wear them down over the course of the entire game.

The closer the ball gets to the basket defensively, then the more the height and size issue becomes real.

If you can think back to the Georgetown game you'll remember the size disadvantage with 5'11 DJ and 6'2 (maybe shorter) against guards who I recall as being 6'5 and 6'4 (maybe 6'3). We forced the pace with our quickness and the lack of depth for the Hoyas had to have wore on their guards as the game played out. This serves to foreshadow what having so many talented wing players will do to the opponents even when they have more depth than Georgetown did.

As I said earlier as well though, we stand to look vulnerable against teams who have the ball handling to deal with our quick ball hawks in order to move the ball closer to the basket and exploit our post players lack of size and thus slow down the pace of the game.

Last Edited: 3/12/2011 11:19:36 PM by Wilson Hall Record Holder

Wilson Hall Record Holder
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/12/2011 11:15:20 PM

giacomo wrote:

Why is this thread silly?

I never made any contention that DJ was a problem. Far from it. I felt the point of having enough talented in the back court would only help Cooper and by extension the Cats.

I'm sure you agree however that even the best players, regardless of what conference, have things that they need to improve. Does 39% fg shooting indicate a need to improve?

I made many more points aside from DJ's shooting selection. It's not within my control as to which ones get expounded upon by those who reply.

I don't intend to be overly sensitive but I am curious as to why you think this thread is silly.

Casper71
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/13/2011 12:31:47 AM

Just to add my two cents:

First, NONE of OUr Frosh were what I would call impact players this year. They all have a long way to go.

Second, I love to watch DJ as much or more than anyone. But, I will repeat, he needs much better shot selection which would result in being a better shooter per centage wise and he needs to improve his decision making on the floor. He does this and he will be a VERY special player.

Third, I have stated a couple of times that JG should have this team in the 6'6" and under league. We need to recruit some bigs that can really contribute. Look at the history of power forwards at OHIO over the years. JG hasn't recruited one of those guys yet in three years. This team needs some physical size.

Once more, the jury is out on JG. He's doing ok but nobody is after this guy given what he has down at OHIO so far. I think we all want/expected more than what we have gotten so far. Next year will be very important if we are going to make the jump and I am just not convinced we have the players returning and coming in to be significantly better. I hope I'm wrong and I will be the first to admit it if i am wrong.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/13/2011 3:06:59 AM

Wilson Hall--stop thinking posts that do not agree with you are personal attacks and stop responding with attacks-on-the-person in your posts. It will be better for you and better for us. On this board we disagree with each other but we don't take it personally.

Wilson Hall Record Holder
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/13/2011 4:13:11 AM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Stop thinking that my counter posts are a defense of a perceived personal attack. If you or anyone else offers a different perspective or even argumentative point about O.U. or basketball in general then I think it's great and i will counter with my perspective and if applicable, introspective view points.

If someone, however refers to me as pretentious and posting comments that reek of crap then please explain to me how that is NOT personal. Yes I know that it wasn't you that said those words but the question still stands if you care to shed any light.

I have made general comments in the past that were construed as personal attacks and I have made specifically directed comments that have been interpreted as the same. I'm not really too concerned one way or the other because the only person toward whom I have made a personal attack in here is someone whose name I don't care to mention because it does no good but it wasn't you.

I can argue against something you say and try to state why I think you might have said it. (even if I'm wrong with what I surmise) It doesn't make it a personal attack or a defense of an attack against me. As long as arguments are raised by people then counter arguments will always be perceived by some as something more personal than not.

There's not much I can do other than apologizing for having a different take on anything that I respond to. I'm not going to do that but I will apologize if I step over a line or say something that doesn't convey the point in a way that I intended and the effect is malicious.

Last Edited: 3/13/2011 4:17:20 AM by Wilson Hall Record Holder

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/13/2011 3:12:50 PM

It's okay to think outside-of-your-mind for a moment about the posts of others and your own posts--probably before you post them.

It's okay to put up posts that are less than 10,000 words.

bobcat695
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/13/2011 3:35:02 PM

Casper71 wrote:

First, NONE of OUr Frosh were what I would call impact players this year. They all have a long way to go.

I'd say Nick was pretty close. He was lethal on offense a few games, fit well in the offense, and is a really good defender. He also played a lot of minutes. That is what I'd call an impact Freshamn.

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/13/2011 5:33:08 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

It's okay to think outside-of-your-mind for a moment about the posts of others and your own posts--probably before you post them.

It's okay to put up posts that are less than 10,000 words.

+1 my left coast friend.

bobcatsquared
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
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RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/13/2011 7:04:53 PM

- 1

Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,221

Status: Offline

RE: Groce is on the right track

Posted: 3/13/2011 8:02:14 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

- 1

What is your minus one in reference to Steveland? My was on Monroe's comments to another poster.

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