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Topic: The Butler Way

Topic: The Butler Way

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Hocking
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Member Since: 11/20/2010
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The Butler Way

Posted: 3/26/2011 7:07:25 PM

How does Butler continue to do it. Back to Back final fours. They dont get high profile recruits, they are not in a high major conference, but they continue to get it done. Is their coaching that good, or does dominating the horizon year in and year out make their confidence sky high. I dont know what it really is, but I WANT WHAT THEY HAVE. I think that if we could get a hold of the MAC, we too could be where they are, we have similar facilities, similar recruits, and a similar conference, although at the moment the horizon is above the Mac. So, I ask, What is the secret that Butler holds and What can we do to match it?

PalmerFest
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/26/2011 8:00:00 PM

Location in a major metro area is a plus for Butler - large potential fan base in Indianapolis, easier/cheaper travel costs for the team and recruits.

But, mainly it's a great coach and kids who work their tails off and believe that has put Butler where it is now. You can't be a fan of a mid-major school and not love the hell out of the run they are on. I hope they take the title this year. It's just so amazing that a Horizon school lost a NBA lottery pick and still made it back to final four. I am in awe.

Last Edited: 3/26/2011 8:00:31 PM by PalmerFest

BOB&BEARCAT
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Member Since: 1/28/2006
Location: CINCINNATI, OH
Post Count: 115

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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/26/2011 8:17:59 PM

Wasn't Groce an assistant at Butler ? He is from Indianapolis.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/26/2011 8:31:08 PM

I think you have to give some credit to the past coaches there too. A system, "The Butler Way", is perpetuated there and the results are showing.

BOB&BEARCAT
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/26/2011 8:40:12 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

I think you have to give some credit to the past coaches there too. A system, "The Butler Way", is perpetuated there and the results are showing.

Just like what Xavier does every year. They have a great system in place.

MedinaCat
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Lakewood, OH
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/26/2011 10:22:03 PM

I agree that past coaches helped lay the foundation, but they are not coaching this team. Brad Stevens and his staff are doing a fine job making the tactical moves that keep his team within striking distance at the end of the game. The players with some luck and mojo(momentum, whatever you want to call it) are closing the deal at the end.

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/26/2011 10:53:49 PM

Hocking wrote:

I think that this is a a very good question. I wish that I had the answer. I saw Butler's victory against Wisconsin, but I was not able to watch their victory today against Florida Butler seems to play with great confidence and has great team play. They have that "expect to win" attitude rather than the "hope to win" attitude. We've seen the switch from the latter to the former in our football program in recent years. I don't think we are quite there yet with the basketball program. However, that's not really the complete answer to the question you ask, but it is a factor, I think. We really need to look deeper. In my estimation, at this juncture, we may have good "player development" coaching, but I'm not sure we have good "in-game" coaching, at least not at the same level as a Butler, or several teams in our own conference. I think that this will come as JG gets more experience. But, even when we get better in-game coaching our program likely will not be at the level of a Butler, or even a VCU or Richmond. Perhaps if we can land a stellar center, our program could get to that "next level" we all want. Does anyone actually see the possibility that we could recruit a talented big man? A good big man and better in-game coaching would certainly move the program forward. Sorry, I've kind of rambled and not said anything. It's late and I'm going to bed.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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bornacatfan
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 12:33:53 AM

buy the book''

www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss

I started to explain it last year but was quickly put in my place by an esteemed poster on this board and told that the kids at Butler are just like anyone anywhere else. and are not special or different For the record, I am very happy that every time Tommy comes home the last 4 years those guys hit him up on facebook or by text to get to Hinkle for open gym before he even hits the back door. Great kids, Great Parents All of whom I consider my close friends, they go to class, get up for 6 am practice everyday, I dont have to worry about them bringing drugws inmy house whenthey stop over and I never worry that they will do soomething stupid that my kid has be ashamed of when he is with them. My . only momentary regret is that i am too tired after a day of State Finals that started at 730 am withour annual pre finals breakfast to meet all of them at Hinkle in 30 mins when they get home.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

Wilson Hall Record Holder
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 12:40:04 AM

To me it's simple --- success breeds success --- add to that consistency in terms of player personnel (no transfers or defections) and you have what Butler has spent a long time building -- this is not just a 3 or 4 year rise.

I firmly believe that if we had Coleman and Jay Kinney our season would have ended with another appearance in the MAC championship game at the very least in spite of our dearth of quality post play for the bulk of the season.

More importantly it would have allowed to bring our younger players along more slowly which is crucial to growing a program the way Butler has. Just because you have good freshman doesn't mean they can't benefit from having quality upperclassmen to learn from while sitting the bench early in their careers.

However I think Ohio is coming and I think it's sooner than later. It will be exciting and we may actually elevate this conference to a 2 team tournament conference the way it used to be during the 80's. Anyone who knows me and my posts knows that I'm not an OU all is sunshine kind of guy when it comes to assessing this team/program. I truly believe we're on the cusp.

Last Edited: 3/27/2011 12:43:58 AM by Wilson Hall Record Holder

bornacatfan
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 12:47:25 AM

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

. I truly believe we're on the cusp.

I do too.

It is nowhere near as easy or as simple as success breeding more.... Collier laid the building blocks and put the system and psyche in place and ensures it continues in his function as the AD.

JSF
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Location: Houston, TX
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 1:30:28 AM

Hocking wrote:

They dont get high profile recruits

But they do! Matt Howard was a top 100 recruit. Gordon Hayward had an offer from Purdue. Shelvin Mack had interest from UK, WVU, and Xavier. Their last two classes are littered with top 150 guys. They're not top 50, but they ain't anonymous faces in the crowd. It was no secret these guys can play. They've gotten guys with offers from bigger schools, and they're getting those guys with greater regularity now.

That's why I find it so encouraging this staff is not afraid to go after people being recruited and offered by the likes of Purdue and Notre Dame. We can get them. Butler showed the way.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

Hocking
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Member Since: 11/20/2010
Post Count: 31

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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 10:42:46 AM

Matt Howard is their ONLY 4 star recruit in the last 5 years, everyone else has been a 2 or 3 star recruit, We have guys that have had interest from big schools. Maybe they are getting the better 3 star recruits but I would say that they maybe are better at getting 3 star recruits at the positions that they need. They may also be getting more role players, I would not contribute their success though to the quality of the recruits.

Last Edited: 3/27/2011 10:43:24 AM by Hocking

cc-cat
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Location: matthews, NC
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 10:50:19 AM

I guess distance is relative. While I'd love for us to be on the cusp, I think we need to be more consistent in getting better bigs. Mr. Mack is a great player, but it is the Haywoods and Howards that make Butler competitive this time of year. Our recruiting focus (and therefore, better players) appear to be more on the guard/wing side. While that may be a formula for winning the MAC (jury still outstanding) it may not translate to consistent runs in the Dance. Now if you were to put a Devereaux, or Trent, Flomo, etc. consistently in our mix....

giacomo
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 3:34:31 PM

A few earlier posts hit the nail on the head: they are getting some high major guys and they are in a major city. It sounds like the kids are great, as well. We had a high major guard last year in Basset- he put us over the top. I don't think Butlers budget is that high compared to the big 6. It's almost impossible to match them at our level.

shabamon
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Member Since: 11/17/2006
Location: Cincinnati
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 3:36:33 PM

giacomo wrote:

I can't speak for this year...maybe Butler's donations hit a spike, but last year their men's basketball budget was nearly identical to Ohio's.

Doc Bobcat
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 4,280

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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 3:37:02 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

. I truly believe we're on the cusp.

That's the Tee shirt.....ON THE CUSP.

Jeff McKinney
Moderator

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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 4:55:46 PM

shabamon wrote:

giacomo wrote:

I can't speak for this year...maybe Butler's donations hit a spike, but last year their men's basketball budget was nearly identical to Ohio's.

As the esteemed Flomogenized has documented, the Horizon as a whole has surpassed the MAC in basketball spending.

mcbin
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Location: Columbus, OH
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 7:23:00 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

shabamon wrote:

giacomo wrote:

I can't speak for this year...maybe Butler's donations hit a spike, but last year their men's basketball budget was nearly identical to Ohio's.

As the esteemed Flomogenized has documented, the Horizon as a whole has surpassed the MAC in basketball spending.

But Ohio spends significantly more than the Horizon average on hoops, no? (~500k less than Butler, and a penny more than VCU)

Ted Thompson
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Location: MAC Play
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 10:53:08 PM

mcbin wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

shabamon wrote:

giacomo wrote:

I can't speak for this year...maybe Butler's donations hit a spike, but last year their men's basketball budget was nearly identical to Ohio's.

As the esteemed Flomogenized has documented, the Horizon as a whole has surpassed the MAC in basketball spending.

But Ohio spends significantly more than the Horizon average on hoops, no? (~500k less than Butler, and a penny more than VCU)

And don't forget that tha MAC hired away one of the better Horizon League coaches last year. But some people aren't into facts. Easier to blame football instead of holding coaches/programs accountable.

Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

ou79
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Post Count: 660

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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/27/2011 11:34:47 PM

Amen Brother Ted!

intrpdtrvlr
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Member Since: 7/8/2010
Post Count: 177

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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/28/2011 6:51:48 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

buy the book''

I started to explain it last year but was quickly put in my place by an esteemed poster on this board and told that the kids at Butler are just like anyone anywhere else. and are not special or different For the record, I am very happy that every time Tommy comes home the last 4 years those guys hit him up on facebook or by text to get to Hinkle for open gym before he even hits the back door. Great kids, Great Parents All of whom I consider my close friends, they go to class, get up for 6 am practice everyday, I dont have to worry about them bringing drugws inmy house whenthey stop over and I never worry that they will do soomething stupid that my kid has be ashamed of when he is with them. My . only momentary regret is that i am too tired after a day of State Finals that started at 730 am withour annual pre finals breakfast to meet all of them at Hinkle in 30 mins when they get home.

Borna, you'd be happy to hear that I'm slowly healing the wounds and rekindling my 10 year romance with the Butler Bulldogs after our falling out last year. I watched the victory against Florida at a downtown Indy pub on Virgina Ave with some old friends and Butler alums. It was good times. I'm ready to root for them to win it all again.

Last Edited: 3/28/2011 6:53:14 AM by intrpdtrvlr

BA - Michigan State '03, MA - Ohio '05, PhD - Ohio '15

bornacatfan
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/28/2011 7:39:30 AM

Sorry my Michigan St friend we never had a problem .I love your posts zand logical arguments that are always laced with facts. There is nothing for you to shoulder. We are good. Always have been. I will someday put together a post that sums things up with Butler. Once I get to sit down with Matt and Zach and Tommy after an open gym and get some questions answered that still are in my mind I will put something together.

SBH
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/28/2011 8:11:02 AM

Ted Thompson wrote:

mcbin wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

shabamon wrote:

giacomo wrote:

I can't speak for this year...maybe Butler's donations hit a spike, but last year their men's basketball budget was nearly identical to Ohio's.

As the esteemed Flomogenized has documented, the Horizon as a whole has surpassed the MAC in basketball spending.

But Ohio spends significantly more than the Horizon average on hoops, no? (~500k less than Butler, and a penny more than VCU)

It appears Jeff McKinney is now one of those who blames football.

Flomo-genized
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/28/2011 9:02:23 AM

Ted Thompson wrote:

That was clearly an exception, not the rule Ted. Toledo has the MAC's 2nd highest hoops budget. Green Bay is the 3rd lowest Horizon spender for hoops (33% below the conference average, and nearly 60% below the top of the league).

I presented the stats before, and football clearly shoulders a large share of the blame in my view. MAC football spending has increased 22% since 2006, while MAC basketball spending has only gone up 13% over the same period. In contrast, the Horizon has increased hoops spending by 22% since 2006, more than doubling the already existing gap in spending between the conferences. Meanwhile, the CAA has increased its basketball spending 25% since 2006, resulting in a 133% increase in the size of the spending gap between the CAA and MAC.

In real dollars, the average MAC school spent $1 million more on football in 2009 than 2006, but less than $200K more on hoops. If we had instead split that $1.2 million in extra spending evenly between the two ($600K more for each), we'd have been ahead of both the Horizon and CAA in spending in 2009 in basketball.

Meanwhile, given the current depths to which MAC football has already sunk, how much worse would it really be with $400K less in annual spending? Maybe WMU wouldn't have gotten that memorable bid to the Texas Bowl a couple years ago (that has clearly propelled the Broncos' program forward), or maybe Troy would have beaten us by 35 instead of 27. At the end of the day, though, we'd still be neck and neck with the Sun Belt as the two worst D-IA conferences, just like we are today.

Last Edited: 3/28/2011 9:33:52 AM by Flomo-genized

Ted Thompson
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RE: The Butler Way

Posted: 3/28/2011 10:02:26 AM

Flomo-genized wrote:

Ted Thompson wrote:

Why did you pick 2006? I thought your previous claim was that the MAC had a press conference in the late 90's to announce it was prioritizing football. And where are those numbers? I must have missed them.

Also, from what I've found, Shaka Smart was hired at VCU for $275K and makes a $325K base today. That's not out of line with what a MAC school would pay. A MAC school could have had Shaka Smart before Anthony Grant left. Instead, they hire dolts like Charles Ramsey and then refuse to fire them. But I guess it's easier to blame football instead of holding people accountable for performance.

Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

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