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Topic: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Topic: Does Groce care about rebounding?

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SBH
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Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 12:42:35 PM

During this year's Bobcat Caravan visit to Akron, I asked John Groce what we needed to do to improve our rebounding. He acted like it wasn't an issue and was surprised I had had the gall to ask such a question.

Now fast forward to Monday night's game. I watched Groce from floor level all game. I saw him kick the scorer's table twice, when a player either was in the wrong position on a press (Goard) or missed a defensive switch (Kellogg, who was banished to the bench for virtually the entire first half during a game in which our other shooters couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, but whatever). And I made a point of watching his reactions to missed rebounding assignments - a majority of which were by Ivo - and the resulting easy put-backs by Robert Morris. (I haven't seen the stats, but am guessing RMU had 14 second-chance points.) Bottom line, rebounding cost us that game, but Groce and his "big man coach" just stood there with no reactions to our utter inability to BLOCK OUT.

Am I missing something? Is rebounding not important in our current offensive and defensive schemes?

Last Edited: 1/4/2012 12:51:49 PM by SBH

OUVan
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 12:45:26 PM

Yes

Casper71
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 1:28:09 PM

I think rebounding, like defense, is primarilly effort and hustle. Sure there is some positioning and fundamentals involved but if you don't want the ball more than your opponent and then make maximum an effort to get it, you won't. As I recall, the Louisville game had the same kind of problem with U of L getting quite a few O-boards.

bornacatfan
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 2:03:58 PM

wow....yes you are missing something...this is a top 50 team in rebounding margin....was top 10 for awhile. Note Ball State is also in there, Pistol Pete had artp

2011-2012 Team Stat Rankings

Nat'l	Conf	OR	Team	Conf	Games
1	1	255	Rhode Island	A-10	15
2	1	243	North Carolina	ACC	15
3	1	239	North Carolina-Greensboro	SoCon	15
4	1	235	Pittsburgh	Big East	15
5	1	234	Radford	Big South	16
6	1	230	Marshall	C-USA	13
7	1	227	Quinnipiac	NEC	13
8	2	221	Massachusetts	A-10	14
9	2	219	Southern Miss	C-USA	15
9	1	219	New Mexico State	WAC	15
9	2	219	Robert Morris	NEC	15
12	1	217	Oakland	Summit League	17

2011-2012 Team Stat Rankings

Nat'l	Conf	DRPG	Team	Conf	Games
1	1	17.2	Pittsburgh	Big East	15
2	1	18.6	Southern Utah	Summit League	14
2	1	18.6	Idaho	WAC	14
4	1	18.9	Murray State	Ohio Valley	14
4	2	18.9	Connecticut	Big East	14
6	1	19.0	Minnesota	Big Ten	15
7	1	19.4	Harvard	Ivy League	14
8	1	19.5	Middle Tennessee State	Sun Belt	15
9	1	19.6	Ball State	MAC	11
9	1	19.6	Virginia	ACC	14
11	1	19.7	Northern Colorado	Big Sky	13
11	1	19.7	Texas Tech	Big 12	12
13	2	19.8	NC State	ACC	14
13	1	19.8	Texas-El Paso	C-USA	14
13	1	19.8	St. Bonaventure	A-10	12
16	2	19.9	Baylor	Big 12	14
16	2	19.9	Texas	Big 12	13
16	3	19.9	Virginia Tech	ACC	14
19	2	20.0	Oral Roberts	Summit League	16
20	1	20.1	Cal State Fullerton	Big West	13
20	1	20.1	California	Pac 12	15
20	1	20.1	Robert Morris	NEC	15
20	1	20.1	Coastal Carolina	Big South	14

Groce can care all he wants. ivo has never been a fundamentally sound rebounder often relying on pure athleticism (though he can focus on technique and get better daily) and in no way can he cover both sides of the board. Even when he was boxing out the rebounder came fromthe weak side.

for the students of the game

Sheri COales ....my favorite womens coach demonstrates what Mich State takes to another level. When they face and make contact MSU pushes you back then turn and locate.

at the next level rebounding and tipping drills.

Last Edited: 1/4/2012 2:21:18 PM by bornacatfan

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SBH
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 2:12:36 PM

Notwithstanding RMU's prowess on the boards, we are a very poor rebounding team. Have been for the past few years.

bobcat695
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 2:19:44 PM

One of the things I saw was our zone defense seemed to be set high. I am not sure if it was a reaction to their hot shooting early from the perimeter or just the design of the zone. Our guys were outnumbered underneath and the top of the zone was not able to secure the long rebounds. It also felt like we had a hand on the defensive rebounds, but could never quite secure them. Without having a true center, I would expect the team to lose the rebounding battles most of the year.

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OU_Country
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 2:42:30 PM

bobcat695 wrote:

My question is, how many teams really play with a true center anymore? Seems most teams play three guards like we do, or a combination that looks something like 1 PG, and the 3 guys that fit the mold of a 2 or 3, and then one player that is a 4 or 5.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 3:46:21 PM

We may not be a great rebounding team, but neither are we poor. Before the RMU game, Ohio had something like a plus 2 margin in rebounds. Dragon or someone else can maybe chime in with the other rebounding stats (like % rebounds on offense, defense).

SBH, at Marshall, we were going up against one of the top rebounding teams in the nation, outrebounding its foes by 10 or 11, but we only got outrebounded by one.

We just had a bad night against a tough, physical team.

Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 4:13:48 PM

"John Groce doesn't care about rebounding."

JSF
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 4:24:09 PM

First of all, rebounding margin is a useless statistic. Please do not use it.

Second of all, I'm glad SBH's crusade against Dustin Ford is alive and well. I mean, what has the guy done other than foster continual improvement of our forwards?

Third of all, the suggestion that Groce doesn't care about rebounding is silly. To tie it to observation of Monday's game... well... it's Monty Python-level silly.

Fourth of all, we're not a poor rebounding team. We're 102nd nationally in offensive rebounding percentage and 173rd in defensive rebounding percentage, pegging us as average. We're averaging a higher defensive rebounding % than we're allowing our opponents. That's a good thing.

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Alan Swank
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 5:43:48 PM

JSF wrote:

Got to agree with Dragon on his first point. Last year's final four teams were ranked 12, 28, 129 and 230 in rebound margin. Many times a team that commits lots of fouls will also have lots of rebounds. Agreed, not a statistic that in itself means much.

SBH
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 5:44:34 PM

JSF wrote:

Did I not mention that I personally asked Groce about rebounding at an event and he implied that we are in no way sub-par in rebounding, which certainly was not true of this team last year?

And Dustin Ford as our big man coach is a freaking joke, which might be why we can't recruit one. Continual improvement of our forwards? Keely took a giant leap backwards last year and Groce personally directed his off-season training this year. Smith? Is Ivo any better defensively or on the boards this year? Not in my opinion.

JSF
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 5:54:11 PM

SBH wrote:

JSF wrote:

Did I not mention that I personally asked Groce about rebounding at an event and he implied that we are in no way sub-par in rebounding, which certainly was not true of this team last year?

You did, which does nothing to help you.

Quote:

And Dustin Ford as our big man coach is a freaking joke

No, he's not. Your only point is that he's not tall, which is irrelevant.

Quote:

Continual improvement of our forwards? Keely took a giant leap backwards last year

Disagree.

Quote:

Smith?

What about him? Did you see him play at his last school?

Quote:

Is Ivo any better defensively or on the boards this year? Not in my opinion.

Rebounding, no, but I don't think he'll ever be a good rebounder. Defensively? He's better.

mcbin
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 8:59:20 PM

I couldn't help but think, during our win streak, that there were a handful of frequent posters that were waiting for a loss to come so that they could let loose on how awful at X, Y, and Z the players/coaches/cheerleaders/O Zone/front row sitters are.

And maybe I have too simplistic of a basketball mind, but if we would have simply shot our average 3pt percentage, we would have won by 15 points. Rebounding, bench points, turnover margin, etc wouldn't have meant much then. So I don't read much into it.

I will say I'm a bit happy this happened against RMU and not a conference foe. In-conference means everything this year.

Casper71
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 9:54:59 PM

Somebody help me out here...has Groce and staff recruited anyone in the 6'7" to 6'9" that was or has turned into a real "stud"? I tend to think he is good at getting point and shooting guards and 3 players but beyond that...we have always been a bit small at the 4-5 and, I think, not a very good rebounding team.

I'm sure someone disagrees so enlighten me...

bobcatsquared
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 10:22:36 PM

     Actually, Casper, I agree with your point.

     I had a talk with Newark HS basketball coach Jeff Quackenbush over the Christmas break about this very subject. He asked about Stevie Taylor, who he coached against 6 times over the last 3 h.s. seasons, and I mentioned how he'll back up DJ for two years before taking over the starting PG position for 2 seasons. I also told him that I felt it will be a shame if we waste 4 seasons of perhaps the best point guard in Ohio basketball history if we can't pair him up with a "stud" or two inside. All the quality wing players Groce has recruited is nice, but imagine adding a 6-9 or 6-10 "man" inside in tandem with DJ and our other perimeter players.

   Another topic in our conversation (for another time and thread) was the late and haphazard recruitment by TOS of Greg Avery, who led Newark to the 2008 state championship.

UpSan Bobcat
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/4/2012 10:31:48 PM

Groce spent the majority of the press conference talking about the rebounding and how it needed to be better. As borna pointed out, Robert Morris is one of the best rebounding teams in the nation. They had 17 offensive boards against Memphis. But Groce also said that a lot of that was Ohio's fault and they needed to do better. He was all over the numbers of giving up almost 50 percent of the possible defensive rebounds.

However, as JSF pointed out, Ohio is not a bad rebounding team statistically, actually pretty average, which is an improvement from last year. There have been some good and bad games. As expected, rebounding was an advantage for Robert Morris, and it was too much of one. MAC play will be a test. I think the Bobcats really were exposed for their somewhat poor rebounding in the MAC last year. I think this year's team stands a better chance of holding up in the area.

Also as others have said, rebounding is not Baltic's strength, but I think he has gotten better at it. Still has a long way to go. I think Groce has more or less said this in the past about him, that his offensive game is way ahead of other areas like rebounding and defense. It has been an emphasis for him to improve. Although Ohio has rated average as a team in it so far, I think it's probably the area it needs to improve the most. I think Coach Groce is well aware and certainly cares about it.

bornacatfan
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/5/2012 12:10:40 AM

Casper71 wrote:

Somebody help me out here...has Groce and staff recruited anyone in the 6'7" to 6'9" that was or has turned into a real "stud"?

that is a really good question.

GOt me to thinking. Besides Zeke ( a major stud already don't you think?) and Mavunga at 6'8 the only stud I can think of who fits your bill is Jones who TOS and crew passed on a couple of years despite my inside info (the Michigan City team bus driver who told me he was going to be a stud worth checking out and no one was recruiting him) and the 7 footer that was at NIU for a minute. I suppose Green at Kent would fit your bill but really does anyone in this league get a big stud? Otis and his running mate at BUGS were pretty big but not quite studs. Am I missing one that I do not realize? We looked at Scott Thomas for a minute but he was "white and unathletic" and has turned out to be pretty much a stud anytime he comes off a ball screen. Nick Osborne was on campus right after his freshman year and had a great rapport with Holtmann but recently committed to Loyola Chicago because he loves the city.

But really I can' t think of a 6'7 to 6'9 stud that was available that we lost or missed evaluating .......seriously even Kyryl has not really turned into a stud and I am not real sure he would have contributed to the chemistry this team has. Those guys are hard to find and even harder to get here with all the big 6 conference schools who come in late with big offers.

Other thing to consider is the relatively short length of time Groce has been here. Guards and wings are a dime a dozen and come in all flavors shapes and sizes but those guys you are talking about are not quite as scarce as hens teeth but they are less numerous and infinitely more coveted ......

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/5/2012 3:00:15 AM

Rebounding stats do matter--over a period of games....Rebounding is sort of about effort and hustle. But those are useless unless coupled with smart technique. Start technique starts with boxing out and elementary school level geometry manifested as knowing what spot a rebound is headed to. (How can you not see that?!)

Ben--I don't think that many of our 3-point attempts on Monday were good looks. Most were rather hurried attempts with some defensive presence by RMU. RMU played well: hustled on defense and the boards and ran a nice offensive scheme. And their #2 was easily the best player on the court that night.

My only question in hindsight is this; why didn't we try Ethan or Belton for a few minutes in order to see if one of these BMANZ could have disrupted RMU's dominance on the boards. I know; not likely that would have done it. But it was worth trying given that nothing else stopped RMU's rebounding.

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Casper71
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/5/2012 12:58:05 PM

borna-agree with your assessment about the difficulty of getting a "name" big man in the MAC. What OHIO has been able to do over the years is at least develop good #4 guys. That's the Williams, Trent, Hunter, Devereaux, Alexander, Love types. We just haven't seemed to be able to do that lately.

Alan Swank
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/5/2012 1:47:22 PM

Casper71 wrote:

If you ever got up close to those guys none of them other than Devereaux was that tall. You can't believe the program when looking at height. There's no way that Keely and Baltic are 6"8".

bn9
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/5/2012 4:17:30 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

Casper71 wrote:

If you ever got up close to those guys none of them other than Devereaux was that tall. You can't believe the program when looking at height. There's no way that Keely and Baltic are 6"8".

Gary Trent was 6'6" at best.

Casper71
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/5/2012 4:19:21 PM

These guys were all "good" 4 players for OHIO . That was my point. I believe most were in the 6'7" range obviously only one was 6'9" (Devereaux). My point was we haven't had a good 4/5 bought in or developed by the current staff. We seem to be full of 1s, 2s and 3s though.

OUs LONG Driver
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/5/2012 5:49:29 PM

When you say "good" are you referring to only rebounding or as a player in general? I put Ivo firmly in the good category as a player in general. He covers his shortcomings on defense and rebounding by being an excellent offensiver player. If he commits to developing defensively and using proper rebounding technique as he has to developing his offensive repertoire he has the chance to have a great senior year.

When comparing the current crop of players versus years past keep in mind the systems are completely different. The current offensive scheme does not require the wide body in the post, but rather athletes who can run the floor continually. As long as the current system is in place I don't think you'll see the dominant low block post player but rather pick and pop style bigs. What matters is the end result, I'll take 12-2.

Last Edited: 1/5/2012 5:50:37 PM by OUs LONG Driver

RSBobcat
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RE: Does Groce care about rebounding?

Posted: 1/5/2012 9:02:14 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

Casper71 wrote:

If you ever got up close to those guys none of them other than Devereaux was that tall. You can't believe the program when looking at height. There's no way that Keely and Baltic are 6"8".

What Keely and Baltic are not is "Wide". Either they are 6'8", or nobody listed as such for the opponents teams are either......I find myself checking that out a lot at the games.

I think about any combination of 3 players on the roster could all fit in Belton's shorts.......

RS Bobcat

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