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Topic: 31 - 14 ???

Topic: 31 - 14 ???

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Wilson Hall Record Holder
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31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 2:36:21 AM

That represents the number of free throws attempted by Buffalo and Kent State respectively from their game. A game won by 1 point.

Wow I don't have to go to Kent State's fan forum to know what they are saying.

I also have reason to believe that Ohio may very well beat Buffalo comfortably if not convincingly. I think it's safe to say that the gap in free throws attempts won't favor Buffalo in the Convo. Combined with Ohio's soul searching ( to put it nicely) and this could be a feel good night.

OU_Country
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 7:19:23 AM

If you look at the numbers, I'd be willing to guess we go to the line A LOT less than both of those teams.

bornacatfan
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 7:34:42 AM

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

That represents the number of free throws attempted by Buffalo and Kent State respectively from their game. A game won by 1 point.

Really? why do fans believe Fouls should be even.? YOu dont think it is possible one team plays wayyy more aggressively or uses their hands rather than feet to defend.? Not possible that the aggressive style of defense or rebounding may lead to more fouls by one team more than the other. Or that one team may be able to gather charges by moving their feet better?

By far the most telling measure of a fan's knowledge of the game is the dreaded 2 comments. "over the back!" and "even the fouls up ref". No such thing as over the back. IF there is contact it is a foul but a 7 oftter can indeed reach over a 6 footer and gain a rebound without touching the rebounder. Likewise if there are legitimately more fouls on a team then they deserve to get whistled more often. That said, I will not forget the statements about the MAC refs in the other thread but I am not going to use the raw number in a way that is indicts the crew without having actually watched what was going on. My take is that THe aggressor may have hit a crew that was willling to call the game straight up and get tape to prepare for their defense, penetration and rebounding rather than assume they got screwed and get my butt kicked for not preparing my team. .

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

Alan Swank
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 9:03:58 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

That represents the number of free throws attempted by Buffalo and Kent State respectively from their game. A game won by 1 point.

Amen brother. Nowhere in the rule book is there any mention of a thing called over the back. The call for a foul where one player contacts another from behind usually while going for a rebound is pushing. Believe it or not, there are people who have heard a fan scream "over the back" so many times that they actually believe it's illegal.

There was actually a situation in our last game where John Smith out quicked and out jumped a guy and clearly reached over him but did not foul him to get a rebound. A guy up behind me said, "I can't believe they didn't call over the back." I just chuckled.

Andrew Ruck
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 9:54:42 AM

Without looking at the numbers, I would say that to this point we have committed a lot more fouls than our opponents. We play aggressive defense, it gets us lots of turnovers but also lots of fouls. I look forward to someone looking up the numbers and proving my gut feeling was horribly wrong yet again.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

Jeff McKinney
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 10:18:50 AM

I agree that there is not "over the back" rule per se, but sometimes when fans decry "over the back", they mean they think the offender pushed or shoved the player.

Totally agree with borna and Alan on total fouls. There is no mandate for the refs to "keep fouls even".

bobcat695
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 10:48:25 AM

While it is not in the rule book, over the back serves as a detailed explanation of a specific pushing foul. There does have to be contact made for a foul to occur, so one can simply out-jump or out-reach someone in front of them without fouling. I took the basketball officiating class while I was on campus. We were taught that using crisp hand motions like a hold, reaching foul or an over the back motion gives the player, coaches and fans some sort of indication about the specific violation. I always used those techniques to clarify my call.

Another call that most fans don't understand is kicking the ball. In order for a kick to occur, there has to be intent, or a motion made with the foot towards the ball. Most folks believe that any time a ball touches the foot or leg below the knee, that is automatically a kick.

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

OUVan
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 11:07:43 AM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

I agree that there is not "over the back" rule per se, but sometimes when fans decry "over the back", they mean they think the offender pushed or shoved the player.

Agree. While there is not an official over the back foul everyone knows what it is. You can be behind a player and grab rebound from him without fouling but it is difficult.

As for the foul disparity, as has been said already, we are a team that is going to foul a lot and our style of offense doesn't create fouls. Only Reggie Keely and Walter Offut really play a style that creates contact around the basket. Ivo falls away from contact on his shot. As for evening things up that's just silly. All you ask is that the refs call the same game on both sides of the court. The only game I thought that wasn't the case was the Louisville game.

SBH
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 11:16:47 AM

Thanks to sticklers like Borna, I'm gonna have to start using more complex exclamations like "rely on your muscle memory!" and "he made contact from behind!" when attending games.

Pete Chouteau
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 11:48:50 AM

I believe it all comes under the umbrella of "giving him the business."

bornacatfan
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 12:20:53 PM

Pete Chouteau wrote:

I believe it all comes under the umbrella of "giving him the business."

like most humans, most refs don't mind "the business" if it does not sound like it is coming from an informed background. I have found it easy to "help" the refs over the years by asking questions....."At what point does that become a carry?" usually results in several 2nd half calls. The current style of dribbling where you freeze the ball in your hand definitely gives the offensive player an advantage but is getting called less often as the current mantra of calling the game is based on "advantage gained" and a lot of refs base their whole game on that concept.

anorris
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 2:26:39 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Pete Chouteau wrote:

I believe it all comes under the umbrella of "giving him the business."

like most humans, most refs don't mind "the business" if it does not sound like it is coming from an informed background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D8aAC4jrPM

bobcatsquared
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 7:44:50 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Pete Chouteau wrote:

I believe it all comes under the umbrella of "giving him the business."

The current style of dribbling where you freeze the ball in your hand definitely gives the offensive player an advantage but is getting called less often as the current mantra of calling the game is based on "advantage gained" and a lot of refs base their whole game on that concept.

I would agree to this when looking at the past 15-25 years. However, watching college and h.s. games this winter, I would say that refs are starting to call this more and more. In fact, UB guard was just called for palming w/ 6 1/2 minutes left in first half.

OU_Country
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 8:31:43 PM

What about when there are A LOT of fouls being called? 33 fouls with 15 minutes to go in the game. Even Rob has asked if the referees want a 3 hour game.

RSBobcat
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/11/2012 11:33:06 PM

When all else fails - there is statistics:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4682821

RS Bobcat

JSF
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/12/2012 12:15:58 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

That represents the number of free throws attempted by Buffalo and Kent State respectively from their game. A game won by 1 point.

I know you're not referring to one specific case, but in OP's example, the 24 fouls called on Kent was 7 more than their season average. They're generally good at playing good defense without drawing whistles.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/12/2012 3:37:56 AM

I think each team should be called for the same number of Over the Back calls each game. It's only fair.

OU_Country
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/12/2012 8:24:52 AM

RSBobcat wrote:

When all else fails - there is statistics:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4682821

From the article -- Oh Lord, this is good: But a few others said, "Yeah, I try to make it even out "

Wilson Hall Record Holder
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/12/2012 6:48:54 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Pete Chouteau wrote:

I believe it all comes under the umbrella of "giving him the business."

bornacatfan
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/12/2012 8:52:47 PM

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

bornacatfan wrote:

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

That represents the number of free throws attempted by Buffalo and Kent State respectively from their game. A game won by 1 point.

YOu are right .

As I look back on this post I did not really know what you were talking about as it is pretty ambiguous and open to an equally meandering interpretation. Your first line talks about a number and the second line talks about the Kent forum with some implied meaning.

I did not assume anything but chose to comment on the disparity of fouls which led in the title. In every arena I attend from grade school to Pro the ubiquitous comments I cited are present. I presented those and discussed them. I think the thread itself turned out pretty well as I have had several people tell me they did not know there was no such call...of course those folks are not going to come on here and post those thoughts but felt better informed nonetheless. That in itself is a slam dunk and some took somethng away. .

Anyone who knows me will echo the fact that I never assume I know anymore than the next guy about hoops choosing to remain open to the discussion and learn from others what they see, hear or know. Even the newest person in the COnvo sees the game through different eyes that may give a different view of something I have never noticed before...... I absolutely do comment based on the experiences I have had and almost always back my comments with context. A great part of message boards is that I get to see and read and enjoy lots of opinions and takes on situations and happenings surrounding this great game and the folks who make up the fabric of it. I was raised in it, love it and try to give back to it. I always assume the guy I am talking to knows more than me about what he is talking about. There are times I derail a thread because I am thiniking in general terms and not specifically about what the poster before me wants to drive home. SOrry if I digress but that is the nature of most message boards I am on and quite frequently the thread jacker whether it be me or someone else stumbles onto some pretty good discussion that may indeed not even be germaine to the original thought. I thought it a bit ironic this morning that JSF chose to intentionally try to interpret your intention rather than ask...especially now with your admonishment.

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

Perhaps if you took the same approach of asking me to explain to you what point I was trying to make in my original post that started this thread that you took with refs while asking them for their thinking behind the calls they make...... then you wouldn't have gone off on the tangent that you did which resulted in all the posts that people made afterwards. However valid the words may all be. None of them really apply to my post, including yours.

INteresting thought. Since it looked more like a statement that did not have a point, what were you trying to convey?....and should we verify that we fully understand everything and not digress generally when folks post.

This marks the 3rd time that you have taken something that I have said and run with it as if whatever your interpretation happens to be then that's exactly what the correct interpretation is.
I
SOrry about previous digressions. I am not trying to interpret anything. Just freely commenting on thoughts I have while reading. I will try to lump you in with that group of posters I try to gloss over and start my own thread on the thought I have.

Why exactly do you do that? Why not just ask me what point I'm trying to make before you go off in judgement?\

All due respect, when I start a subject I try to convey my point so that there is not much for folks to think about before they comment. I like to think that the board is a great place to discuss things and I truly value the responses. Over the years I have had many lurkers out there who share opinions with me everywhere from the Eagle in Lancaster to the concourse in the Convo. I always encourage them to put away their shyness and to post their thoughts which usually are pretty insightful and astute. I would not put a thread out there if I was just wanting my own opinion. It is the modern day equivalent of the barber shop in Hoosiers (which , when in Muncie is the Village Edge) and discuss the same things here I would there. I am not sure I want folks asking me about what my point is....I think I like seeing where they take it. Here in Indiana our Hickory Husker board has very fwe anonymous posters and we all enjoy greeting each other putting a face to a name and sharing our love of a common interest. Sorry but I have met a lot of great folks on this board and dont say anything here I would not say to their face. I am not here to judge as I consider everyone here a potential friend and fellow BOBCAT/Hoops junkie.

OOPs that was probably not the point you were making with that question. But I digressed anyway......

See what I did there? Instead of telling you what it is that makes you do what you do I actually took the same approach that you took with refs.

10-4 Acknowledged

I'm hoping it's not because you actually think you know more about basketball than I therfore I'm not to be "respected" in the same fashion

WHen someone hides behind a screen name I just assume it is Groce or Ford or the most astute basketball historian on campus and reply as if they were reading it . NO worries then.(of course I know they NEVER read the board)

Since you are keeping score you may have noticed I have never commented on anything I do not know about first hand. I was not in the COnvo when Trent was there. I have never commented on that thread. I was not at the MAC tourney in 2005 you wont find me discussing Jeremy Fears and the run up to that. I try to learn from others and even in that case will only comment using a solid source and citation. My respect for those who were there is that I just keep my mouth shut and dont comment on what I do not know. I am just a youngster in this game in my circle of friends and really treasure those younger than me, respect is earned around here and I give way more than I get....always try to keep humble and hungry for more info. .... Given the bluster and self proclaimed expert knowledge you came onto the board with and continue to profess, especially in retrospect when evaluating players, I have steered clear of you in most cases not quite knowing what to think and not desiring to get you ramped up. Pretty sure you are sure you know WAYYYY more than me and concede beforehand that you probably do...

I'll share with you a nugget of wisdom that was once shared with me since you were considerate enough to share with me something that your father told you.

NOt sure I learned as much from my pops as I did from my gramps who I frequently quote.

"it is more important to understand all the questions than it is to know all the answers"

I like it . I will use it and credit it to you often.

I'd have a hard time believing that any words of wisdom passed on to you in your younger years would have served you better than that one.

.....and yes I'd very much like to know the answer to the question I asked you earlier in this reply. I'm all about understanding.

THe summary answer is ......if I understand the question.....I commented on an ambiguous statement with a statement about a situation I see every night in every gym that is dear to me. It really has nothing to do with you personally and certainly resulted in some good discussion that probably got 695 to get the ref to call the carry last night. Not being flip or disrespectful in anyway but your point did not come through very well . Sorry you took it as an affront or personal attack. NOt sure about the other 2 times as I have no concept of them. Be happy to talk in a PM if you think this is personal......or in person, I am pretty easy to find...... just ask someone in the Convo. A lot of folks have figured out my whereabouts in Athens and have no problem sharing a beer and discussing hoops.....and I would most certainly welcome any stories you have given that you have followed Ohio much longer than I....

Last Edited: 1/12/2012 8:55:19 PM by bornacatfan

bobcat695
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/12/2012 9:48:55 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

bornacatfan wrote:

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

That represents the number of free throws attempted by Buffalo and Kent State respectively from their game. A game won by 1 point.

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

He did look over at me and wink after the call. We were good after that. I'm just trying to get one call a game and I'll feel like I contributed as much as I can. I specialize in pointing out carrying and 3 second violations. Look for an increase in those calls this year.

"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

RSBobcat
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/12/2012 9:59:55 PM

Guarunteed we (home crowd) get some calls - I also doggedly watch for 3 seconds and travelling from right on the floor behind the bench. No doubt about it MANY calls on those violations a year are 'prompted" by my/our agitation. Although, I think I'm personally w/o one so far this year :(

RS Bobcat

JSF
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/12/2012 11:17:24 PM

Wilson Hall Record Holder wrote:

I'll share with you a nugget of wisdom that was once shared with me since you were considerate enough to share with me something that your father told you.

"it is more important to understand all the questions than it is to know all the answers"

Reminds me of another nugget of wisdom: "Just when they think they have the answers, I change the questions."- Rowdy Roddy Piper

Only one OHIO
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/13/2012 8:23:31 AM

Ken Pomeroy has an interesting blurb about the tendency for officials to even up the foul count:

http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/2012/01/P3/

bornacatfan
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RE: 31 - 14 ???

Posted: 1/13/2012 9:17:22 AM

With over 13000 play-by-plays, we have enough of a sample to produce a smooth curve without any massaging of the data. The conclusion is obvious: After each consecutive foul on one team it becomes more likely that the other team will get whistled.

There are other factors contributing to this trend besides refs just giving into a coach’s complaints. Just how much of this is the result of a ref’s fragile psyche is up for debate. Nonetheless, the next time you see a lopsided foul count, you should expect the next call to go against the team that has been benefitting from the calls to that point.

Wow!

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