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Topic: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Topic: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

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sargentfan
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Member Since: 3/16/2005
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MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/10/2012 10:03:00 AM

Didn't anyone else read this article talking about how the Big Ten is screwing us over for good crews? Thus we are getting rookie refs paired up with the best MAC refs, but those best MAC refs have to officiate games closest to their Big Ten game they have the next day. Thus the league isn't able to put its best crews with the best teams.

Mike Coleman
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/10/2012 10:13:29 AM

Does this mean Jerry Sauder is moving up to the Big Ten? I'll take my chances with a rook over that guy. I also note Boroski is working many more Big 10 than MAC games. Again, is it that bad?

Last Edited: 1/10/2012 10:14:46 AM by Mike Coleman

clodney
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/10/2012 11:12:40 AM

Is this really an article that claims the refs shouldn't have called obvious fouls on Justin Greene because he was an important asset that Kent would need at the end of the game? Seriously?

Alan Swank
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/10/2012 11:14:00 AM

This guy is a kook. Basketball has rules and no matter who you are if you violate those rules you pay the consequences. This is not a political statement but it's kind of like the article in today's Dispatch about a lady who will be running for the Ohio Supreme Court. Who cares if she is a D or an R, the law is the law and her job will be to uphold that law. Same with officials.

LoganElm_grad09
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/10/2012 11:56:03 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

This guy is a kook. Basketball has rules and no matter who you are if you violate those rules you pay the consequences. This is not a political statement but it's kind of like the article in today's Dispatch about a lady who will be running for the Ohio Supreme Court. Who cares if she is a D or an R, the law is the law and her job will be to uphold that law. Same with officials.

Not to get into a political debate on an athletics board, but it seems to me that how these judges interpret the constitution depends heavily on their political affiliations.

DelBobcat
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/10/2012 3:26:55 PM

LoganElm_grad09 wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

This guy is a kook. Basketball has rules and no matter who you are if you violate those rules you pay the consequences. This is not a political statement but it's kind of like the article in today's Dispatch about a lady who will be running for the Ohio Supreme Court. Who cares if she is a D or an R, the law is the law and her job will be to uphold that law. Same with officials.

Not to get into a political debate on an athletics board, but it seems to me that how these judges interpret the constitution depends heavily on their political affiliations.

+1 (e.g. Citizens United)

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012

bornacatfan
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/10/2012 10:23:08 PM

clodney wrote:

Is this really an article that claims the refs shouldn't have called obvious fouls on Justin Greene because he was an important asset that Kent would need at the end of the game? Seriously?

Its all about Game Management. One of my friends that was a very good HS ref went up to the D1 level and then bailed. I asked him why. He explained the extraneous pressures to ensure margins, make sure certain coaches won in order to make their bonuses or be retained, and of course, as you see, to protect certain players was the norm and him calling the game as he would a HS game, "you know, call what I actually see and not based on what needs to happen to ensure the desired outcome" drove him right out of college ball.

{t gpes deeper than we know....I just cant get a pulse on it or who is pulling the strings.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

RSBobcat
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/10/2012 11:10:05 PM

An area of the game I knew Very little about, but I did always think that MAC refs pretty much sucked compared to bigger conferences. I thought it was just a matter of "get what you pay for", as in lower pay, lower quality, not actually get "WHAT you PAY FOR"!!! Is what I am reading here and on links now just confirming that???? And we have fairly heated debates on here about other things like PA announcers, OOC scheduling, Bigs asst coaches abilities, shooting too many/not enough 3's, hedge vs switch abilities off/through a screen, relative merits of certain McDonalds McCafe machines? The even remote possibilility that the referees may have compromised integrity is an abomination - virtually nothing else matters if the integrity of game calling by the refs is comprimised - WTF!!!!

Last Edited: 1/10/2012 11:12:34 PM by RSBobcat

RS Bobcat

Tom Valentino
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/11/2012 12:17:07 PM

It warms my heart that in a thread titled "MAC Refereeing Hits New Low", it took a grand total of 2 posts for Jerry Sauder to get name-dropped.

#SameAsItEverWas

On Twitter: @1tomvalentino | TheNailPodcast.com

bornacatfan
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/11/2012 12:45:06 PM

Tom Valentino wrote:

It warms my heart that in a thread titled "MAC Refereeing Hits New Low", it took a grand total of 2 posts for Jerry Sauder to get name-dropped.

#SameAsItEverWas

For those who want to be a bit proactive. If you are watching the game and feel a guy is really stinky or really good go to the statsheet area and grade him out. May not do anything more than make you feel better but there is a lot of information there to look at and digest.

Bobcat Swag
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/12/2012 9:46:49 AM

Woooooo, where to begin?

I'm a licensed OHSAA ref so although I can't speak of the politics of the NCAA, I can at least give some perspective of what goes on during the game and respond to this garbage article that was posted.

First of all, as much as most people like to think, the referees do not care in the slightest who wins the game. They get their checks beforehand and do not get any bonuses one way or the other. They're not there to try and help this or that coach out who is about the get fired. If that guy is 1 loss away from getting the axe and his team loses by 2, so be it.

If the only reason we have a crew in the Convo on Saturday night is because they have an tOSU game on Sunday, it's just for practicality. These refs probably don't live within 2 hours of Athens so give the assigner credit for making the most efficient schedule. Although while I'm sure their pay is good, with travel stipends, it's still not enough to jump on a plane a few times a week for games.

The Justin Greene situation, I laughed at. Who cares how many fouls in had in his previous games against Buffalo? Simply put, the main reason for getting fouled is because you are getting beat on defense. Get quicker feet and better fundementals and you will only have 1 or 2 fouls a game. It's in the tight games when the refs will have a quicker whistle. Although it's too bad Greene fouled out, you can't just allow him to stay in the game because then it's unfair to Buffalo and they would have been upset.

I'd be lying if I said because I ref, I don't give the refs a hard time when I sit in the ozone. I yelled a good minute when Keely got trucked in the lane agaisnt RMU. For the most part the refs know when they really really screw up and on the next possession there may be a make-up call or a no-call. Both teams have to play for the same crew so win by enough and they shouldn't even matter.

"Good leaders being scarce, following yourself is allowed."

bornacatfan
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/12/2012 10:10:42 AM

ALl due respect because I love refs. Truly love refs. My pops was the first official to work 4 state championships in one year in the state of Ohio so I was raised in officiating but......

I was careful to add the story about a former D1 player in the MAC who went on to NCAA from HS and is now back on Tues thurs Fri SAt working HS games with a lot happier existence than calling games with old timers who "know the league" and what has to happen in this game. I think you touched on that with your credentials withthe OHSAA.....

That said....I truly appreciate the methodology and approach you shared and would love to watch you work. There is rarely a gym in Indiana I walk into and dont know part of the crew or the observers in the gym. I think they would all like to work with you given your approach.

OTOH. This article is somewhat valid. I always think .....if there is smoke it is always good to look to see how big the fire is. Having talked to many refs over the years and watchig guys like Bo BOroski who are good HS refs progress through to college and forget that approach that made them sooooooo good become really different refs at the NCAA level gives more credence to the idea that there is somethng influencing their approach to the game.

Ted Thompson
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/12/2012 10:43:38 AM

Very interesting discussion and one I've been thinking about a lot lately. While I understand that fouls shouldn't necessarily be even, that doesn't stop me as a fan trying to point that out to a ref in order to try to get the next call to go my team's way. When BG was finally whistled for a foul last Saturday, I stood and applauded with other Ohio fans. I didn't necessarily believe the fouls should be even but after that there was a period where no foul was called against Ohio and they get the benefit (IMO) of a charge/block call.

I go to a lot of games at UD Arena and the Flyer Faithful can absolutely give it to the refs. After some calls whip the crowd into a frenzy, you can almost bank on the other team getting called for a moving screen or on the wrong end of a block/charge call. I read a book last year, Scorecasting, that suggests the primary driver in home-field advantage is officiating. They point out that the NFL home team winning percentage went down by like 6 points (I think, don't have the book with me but it was significant) when instant replay was instituted. The refs can still call more penalties against the road team but instant replay allowed teams to equalize the bad calls on game-changing plays.

Back to the topic of getting the fouls even. Ken Pomeroy recently addressed this on his blog in looking at play-by-play data (http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/play-by-play_theater_revisiting_consecutive_fouls/) from this year. There was also a study which appeared in the Journal of Sports Science in 2009. You have to pay for those articles but the study is summed up here and here. Basically, there is no question that either consciously or subconsciously there is an effort to even the fouls up.

Summary of findings from the Journal of Sports Science article:

The probability of a foul being called on the visiting team was 7 percent higher than on the home team.
When the home team is leading, the probability of the next foul being called on them is about 6.3 percentage points higher than when the home team is trailing. The professors also cited an earlier study that concluded there were more calls against teams ahead in games on national TV versus those ahead in locally televised games. Calling fouls against the leading team tends to keep games closer, the studies said.
The larger the foul differential between two teams, the greater the likelihood that the next call will be made against the team with fewer fouls. For example, when a home team has three or more fouls than the visiting team, the probability that the next foul call is made against the visiting team is more than 60 percent. When the foul differential is as high as five, then that probability rises to 69 percent. The researchers also observed this trend when they looked at neutral-court games.

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Ohio69
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/12/2012 12:23:06 PM

You know, last nights game was really, really ugly. But, I gotta say I didn't disagree with most of the fouls called. Maybe a few here and there.

And, just for fun I'll throw in that a healthy suspicion of refs is a good thing. Just ask any European soccer fan these days. Match fixing at almost all levels seems to be a weekly story over there.

Last Edited: 1/12/2012 12:23:24 PM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

OUVan
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/12/2012 12:44:15 PM

GreenBleeder4Life wrote:

The Justin Greene situation, I laughed at. Who cares how many fouls in had in his previous games against Buffalo? Simply put, the main reason for getting fouled is because you are getting beat on defense. Get quicker feet and better fundementals and you will only have 1 or 2 fouls a game. It's in the tight games when the refs will have a quicker whistle. Although it's too bad Greene fouled out, you can't just allow him to stay in the game because then it's unfair to Buffalo and they would have been upset..

Agreed. I always hate the statement that the refs don't want to decide the game by calling a foul. Well, by not calling a foul you are deciding the game just in the other direction. The onus is on the player not to commit a foul. If he's got 4 he's got to weigh the consequences of his style of play. It's all part of the game strategy. The refs job is to call the game consistently from beginning to end. A foul in the first minute should be a foul in the last.

bornacatfan
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/12/2012 12:47:52 PM

boy do I agree with that VAN. t

It drives me crazy when a coach sits a player who has 2 fouls first half AUTOMATICALLY. There are very cerebral players who can figure out how to stay on the floor and avoid situations that put them in danger of committing the next foul and there are players who blatantly keep playing the same style with o or 4 fouls.

OTOH I always hated the statement when a ref says .....nahhhat that point I am going to swallow the whistle and let the players decide the game. Alex Daniels at Muncie CEntral took 4 charges in a game....at Marion in 04 Marion down 1 he stands in and takes the most brutal charge of the night leaving him with a bruised rib . No WHistle. Coule of years later I talked to one of the crew who said "it wasnt in my area but we had agreed during the time out with 9 seconds left we were going to swallow our whistles "

Last Edited: 1/12/2012 12:51:18 PM by bornacatfan

OUVan
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/12/2012 12:58:40 PM

Ohio69 wrote:

I thought they called it a little tight early and then waaaay loose at the end. I don't think they favored ether side although a tighter called game definitely helped us because of our depth.

ab54
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/16/2012 11:12:18 AM

after Sat's debacle, it's clear the conference has a huge issue..

Ozcat
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/16/2012 12:18:50 PM

My biggest issue with refs is consistency. MAC refs are notoriously bad, but I see it in every conference.

The difference in officiating in yesterday's OSU/IU game in Columbus versus the game in Bloomington on 12/31 was night and day. The called EVERYTHING in Bloomington, and yesterday, they let them beat on each other. This example is consistency over two different games.

Then you have what I see in the MAC more than anywhere. In-game consistency. They'll call one half tight and the other half loose. This drives me mad. I have no problem if they want to call every single hand-check. But they better call it the same way for 40 minutes.

Bobcat Grad 86
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/16/2012 2:51:03 PM

This crappy refereeing made me think of Sam Lickliter from my days as an undergraduate only to find out
he became supervisor of officials for the MAC in 2005.

I always thought is high britches and very tight belt always cut of the blood flow to his brain.

http://ohiobasketballhalloffame.com/2009/slickliter.html

bornacatfan
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/17/2012 11:01:29 AM

Picture of Sam reminded me.......Just so everyone knows. The MAC has discontinued the use of "evaluators onsite" as a budget cut.

As I understand it...the thousand dollars per evaluator per season paid out to each individual who lives locally in each MAC city resulted in substantial savings to the conference and did not substantially affect the product.

PalmerFest
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/17/2012 11:06:43 AM

MAC officiating rubbing off on CUSA:

deadspin.com/5876776/marshall-coach-tom-herrion-flops-on-sideline-to-draw-a-foul-helps-seal-win-over-ucf

Stupid Cow strikes again.

bornacatfan
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RE: MAC Refereeing Hits New Low

Posted: 1/17/2012 12:00:05 PM

Yeah...

I have seen these coaches at all levels. It is frequent inthe COnvo where a coach is out on the floor altering a players concentration on where the ball is and drawing player focus to him.

sorry it is incumbent on the coach to stay off the floor. I would teach my kids to go head hunting. If a coach is marginal ask him to step aside. If he is deliberately on the floor TRUCK HIS Arse! ...just make sure you have your head turned toward the ball when you do it. Referees should have taken care of the coach before this becomes an issue.

The refs are doubly at fault here.

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