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Topic: Groce in denial?

Topic: Groce in denial?

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FearLeon
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Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/11/2012 6:56:16 PM

Says the main problem right now is defense? I get that, but how bout telling your team to stop throwing up 25 3's every game.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

colobobcat66
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/11/2012 7:00:48 PM

We have lots of main problems.

71 BOBCAT
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/11/2012 7:01:00 PM

We play a step slower on the road than at home.

GO BOBCATS

Pataskala
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/11/2012 7:10:15 PM

The main problem is offense against the zone. Can we get someone to teach that to Groce so he can teach it to the team. Shooting 3s when your team is hitting 33% on the season (an improvement from earlier!) ain't gonna do it. Odds are, the Cats will see nothing but zone the rest of the year.

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We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

Buster
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/11/2012 7:12:04 PM

I'm fine with DJ shooting with the green light when we are doing everything else right. I'm fine with the way Groce coaches and I have a lot of respect for him. But, it is very displeasing that we obviously have no discipline with our shot selection, especially DJ. Groce needs to find somebody who wants the ball down low and guys that want to work TOGETHER. We rely way too much on our 3's and look like we have no idea what to do when they aren't dropping. Enough pointing fingers at each other on stupid mental mistakes. Get back to OHIO basketball.

We need at least somebody to step up with this attitude..."What are you showing up here for if you aren't going to compete? What are you showing up here for if you don't want to win?"......"If you're not going to die with me out on this basketball court and I mean DIE with me on this court, then I don't want to play with you." -Gary Trent

I'll tell ya where we'll go. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talkin' bout a little place called... ATHENS.

Casper71
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 1:33:17 AM

This is a great thread. After the game JG was all over the D but had little negative to say about the O. i am confused here...was this a team that took 10 minutes into the game to score a point? And, one that scored less than 60 points? I am not sure about denial but as I heard the game, the O was clueless. And, it has been since MAC play. Just look at how bad the stats are! The D held these guys to less than 70. A team should win games with that kind of D and we did earlier in the year. Everybody just plays zone against us now because they know we have no clue how to break it down.

JSF
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 1:59:20 AM

1.10 points per defensive possession. That's one of our worst performances of the season.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

bshot44
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 3:38:10 AM

Such a frustrating week to be a fan. This team has been "off" since that Bob Morris loss. Other than CMU and Kent blowouts, they have been sluggish. Lucky to squeeze wins vs. WMU, Ball, Miami at home. Piss away games at Akron, BG. Unimpressed with win at NIU. Offensive disaster finally caught up with them this week. Just frustrating seeing them settle for so many 3ptrs...Cooper needs to drive ball more and look to distribute. Offutt is capable slasher (just needs to finish more consistently)...Would be nice to see Kellogg develop more than 3pt shooter...maybe a drive or two or at least a 15-foot or foul line jumper. Missed Baltic today for sure. Most baffling was disappearing act defense pulled this week. No MAC team scored 70 on Cats all year...until Toledo??!? Then allow 68 to an EMU team that AVERAGED only 50-something a game?!?!? Need to get back to defense if they are to make run to Cleveland or beyond.

Bottom line...win vs BG, Akron at home. Hope to take 2 of 3 from Kent, Miami & Buffalo on road....should get you a shot at #2 seed at 11-5 in league. If not...at least a bye to Q'finals. Again, this team has to find heart to win on the road....havent shown it yet at 1-4 on MAC road. Loss at Akron excusable....but losses in empty, dead environments like EMU, UT & BGSU is unacceptable. Good teams find way to push thru and execute in those environments

Last Edited: 2/12/2012 3:39:25 AM by bshot44

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 3:48:45 AM

Or, this is who we are. Not that talented. Not that athletic, in a basketball way. Not tall and not a good rebounding team. Not good shots. Good but not that good on defense (which I pointed you to earlier this week).

These defects can be overcome if you do one thing really well (though I'm not sure what's left after those things that we can't do) or if you have one dominant, indeniable player.

Given recent events, I'd like to see us press for substantial minutes every game. Our depth and pure athleticism might prove out by pressing. Maybe we can exhaust the oppo and be the more effective squad at game end.

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71 BOBCAT
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 8:15:00 AM

As I listened to the post game show last night and Coach's comments it hit me;
1) Coach clearly knows this team, he selected, was not a good shooting team as in the past.
2) Our path to win is by playing great D
Think about this........This will be our team next year as well, no one graduates

GO BOBCATS

Lande71
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 9:02:28 AM

Monroe: Kind of hard to press when you don't score. As in the first 10.5 minutes of game! Or whatever it was.

Last Edited: 2/12/2012 9:03:48 AM by Lande71

colobobcat66
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 9:03:29 AM

71 BOBCAT wrote:

And just the other day someone on this board was saying how much they are looking forward to this team next year. You do have to wonder if that's good or bad. I have to question whether the coach has "lost" the team at this point. This game was supposed to be a " we get the message" game and something went terribly wrong. 10 minutes without scoring?

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 11:48:39 AM

Lande71 wrote:

Monroe: Kind of hard to press when you don't score. As in the first 10.5 minutes of game! Or whatever it was.

Why can't we press when we don't score?

Maybe that this isn't often done will help. Maybe the unexpectedness of it will catch teams unprepared. 'cause we sure now need to find an edge.

Last Edited: 2/12/2012 12:05:29 PM by Monroe Slavin

OUs LONG Driver
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 12:23:48 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Lande71 wrote:

Monroe: Kind of hard to press when you don't score. As in the first 10.5 minutes of game! Or whatever it was.

Why can't we press when we don't score?

Without a dead ball or time to take the ball out there is no time to get in position for a zone press, which is what we use (diamond & 1). You might, and I doubt it, be able to man press on occasion but a simple clear out and decent ball handler breaks that.

EMU handled the press rather easily and got some easy buckets by doing so, more pressing was not the answer yesterday.

EMU hit some shots they typically don't. Sometimes a team shoots over their heads and makes defensive #'s look worse than the effort that was there. There were some lapses no doubt but I didn't think it was as bad as it seemed defensively. The EMU commentators were even shocked to see some of those shots go in and commented on it a couple times.

I liked the token press EMU used to force us to slow down and shorten the game. Very smart move on their part. They completely dictated pace on both ends.

We have to solve the zone. That will determine how this year finishes. If Ivo is healthy he has to be in the high post or working the soft spot of the zone on the baseline (short corner). Opposite wing needs to flash to an open spot. Screening the zone on top is something to do on occasion not 4 times per possesion. I'd like to see a skip pass on occasion or a big screening the low man and then sealing the middle man as the zone shifts. Break the zone up by killing them inside first then getting those kickouts and drives. We don't have the shooters to do it the other way around every night.

Donuts
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 12:36:44 PM

71 BOBCAT wrote:

Think about this........This will be our team next year as well, no one graduates

Which is cool, except I don't think any of these 6'5" and shorter players we have (and bringing in another one!) can all of a sudden grow and play inside. Which is what we need to really go anywhere big.

RSBobcat
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 1:43:31 PM

OU's Long Driver said:

"We have to solve the zone. That will determine how this year finishes. If Ivo is healthy he has to be in the high post or working the soft spot of the zone on the baseline (short corner). Opposite wing needs to flash to an open spot. Screening the zone on top is something to do on occasion not 4 times per possesion. I'd like to see a skip pass on occasion or a big screening the low man and then sealing the middle man as the zone shifts. Break the zone up by killing them inside first then getting those kickouts and drives. We don't have the shooters to do it the other way around every night."

Can you get that put on a billboard somewhere near the Convo?

Last Edited: 2/12/2012 1:45:23 PM by RSBobcat

RS Bobcat

Lande71
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 7:01:09 PM

Monroe: Without having to go through the same explanation - see OU Long Driver's response to your question of "Why can't we press w/o making a basket?" I agree with him totally. We in essence man press with our half court defense now and you saw how that worked out for us in the scoring statistics. To zone press you pretty much have to score 1st to be able to get all 5 of our guys in the right positions to press. We rely on our half court man to do such an excellent job that our offense can be marginal. It didn't happen yesterday! We gave up too many points!

Ohio69
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 7:32:21 PM

FearLeon wrote:

Says the main problem right now is defense? I get that, but how bout telling your team to stop throwing up 25 3's every game.

Groce wants lots of threes. Every game. Unfortunately, Kellog, Offut, Hall, Cooper, and Taylor are not shooting well at all.

This team has already won several more games than I expected for the full season. Groce has done well getting this group to the 20 win range. The lost scholarship and a few recruiting misses are limiting this team a bit. But, still good enough to get to 20 wins. That says a lot.

At this point, I hope we can adjust and start attacking the basket. But, I'm not sure anyone can do it very well. Offut and DJ are just OK. That's about it. We are going to have to grind out every win.

Last Edited: 2/12/2012 7:43:57 PM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

Alan Swank
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 7:34:41 PM

Let's see, some of us are accountants, sales reps, production engineers, ice executives, retired profs and wine reps. We do that for a reason - we're generally good at it. John Groce is a coach and he seems to be pretty good at that. Sooo, let's give the guy a break.

Now here's my two cents on busting the zone. If they're in a 2 -3, you run a 1 - 3 -1 with a rotating man at the foul line. Reverse/back side passes work very well in that scheme. That said, many of us played high school ball. D 1 is a whole new world. As a former high school volleyball coach, I discovered that big time when I was asked to line judge an OU match. Second serve of the game, a back side spike literally went between my legs. 18 inches higher and I'm not a grandfather.

RSBobcat
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/12/2012 11:38:48 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

I was also a cook - and this reminded me of the common wisdom "If you can't stand the heat".....

Generous "break" there, two cents = what, 1 to 2 seconds worth of the position salary? Like they say, "That's why he gets paid the big bucks". Beyond our "day jobs", we are all also OHIO sports fans, enthusiasts, analysts, pundits, and prognosticators, as well as ticket buyers, Bobcat Club & University financial supporters - and I would say we are all "pretty good at it". We "Pay to say". Sometimes the criticism can be a bit 'biting", but the kudos can often be a little over enthusistic as well (see majority of posts in December). I think sometimes one can miss the sarcasm that can be fairly prevalent on here - I like it. We have discussed it many times, this is a fun board, witty, wonkish, esoteric, sarcastic, but rarely mean spirited or derogatory (which many other program boards can have quite a bit of).

I am not concerned that Groce does not have the constitution to deal with criticism. If he does not, then we have bigger issues, and he surely would not be interested in bolting from a mid major program on to a higher profile/higher exposure program. This is "mid/major" level fan/public scrutiny at best. This is not Anything like unfavorable daily sports editorials and critical fan letter tirades of a coach published in a major metro newspaper, sports radio call-in shows, etc., etc.....

What goes on here on BA, kudos and criticisms, is certainly better than a lot of other mid major programs and their fan forums, a Lot of which have Zero to Very Little Participation (which also indicates why they can't get more than 3-4K attendence at their home venues).

RS Bobcat

Casper71
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/13/2012 12:45:01 AM

Agree with many posts on here. Just one comment. We all may be accountants, attorneys or whatever. But many have played or watched or coached kids a ton of basketball in our lives. It is amazing to me that most everyone...but the coach...agrees this team is seriously deficient offensively and has a three point shooting team. If he really thinks defense ONLY will get us there, i think he is mistaken. This team needs a serious offensive adjustment and it needs it quickly.

JSF
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/13/2012 1:37:00 AM

I'll theorize he knows it's a problem but is judicious about what he'll call out publicly.

Bobcatbob
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/13/2012 8:33:19 AM

How you coach a group of players to make shots? You can run sets, you can preach screens and cuts to the basket but when it breaks down as it often does, it just comes down to the shot you;re left with falling or not.

A coach can only do so much when the guys he runs out there can't throw a ball in the ocean. You can call them out and make them start thinking about it - which is the worst thing he could do - or you can stress defense, slow the game down and try to hang on. In that respect, I see Coach Groce doing exactly the right thing.

giacomo
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/13/2012 10:19:45 AM

You can look at it another way. If we have all these flaws, then Groce is doing a great job with 19 wins so far. We've hit a rough patch, but there is always redemption in Cleveland. We've all known it would come down to Cleveland anyway.

OUVan
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RE: Groce in denial?

Posted: 2/13/2012 10:24:50 AM

Eastern ran an interesting zone that kept a guy within an arm's length of Nick Kellogg. The other guys collapsed on our interior and they challenged our other players to beat them. Having Ivo out really hurt because they could smother Reggie. They also took a page out of our book and really pressured the ball making it hard for us to pass the ball so the recipient could catch it in rhythm. On offense the slow down really hurts our defense. It seemed like it lulled us to sleep. We need to keep up the intensity and force the tempo. Keep pressure on the ball the whole possession.

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