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Topic: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Topic: Please take the Groce Goggles off

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cc-cat
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Member Since: 4/5/2006
Location: matthews, NC
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Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 12:20:52 AM

Did wonders with this team, but the team struggled much of last year. Many of those posting tonight also posted their angst towards Groce and this team last year. We are what we are - very competitive when we shoot well, and not when when we don't.

Perhaps a little recall is called for:

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

KyleWvr13
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Location: Pottstown, PA
Post Count: 501

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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 4:05:53 AM

This is what drives me nuts about this board sometimes. ANYTIME we lose, football or basketball, the whole board goes nuts and claims that our program has no focus, has no purpose, and we might as well just fire all of the coaching staff and go "clean slate" and hire a whole new crew. Even though we are one of the best in the conference, it's never good enough.

I just don't understand it. Maybe I just try to look on the bright side of things...

MACAttackCat
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Member Since: 12/22/2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 4:06:57 AM

cc cat wrote:

Last Edited: 2/24/2013 4:07:54 AM by MACAttackCat

"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere."
-Carl Sagan

BillyTheCat
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 4:54:39 AM

KyleWvr13 wrote:

Couldn't agree more!!!!!!!

BillyTheCat
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 5:06:10 AM

I thoroughly need to beta life, come off working 3rd shift, and I'm amusing myself with some of these old threads, wish I knew how to navigate this site better to cut and paste and create links, because there are some pricelesss snippets out there on how miserable this team was last year and how poor a job Groce did.

Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 6:20:15 AM

G-a-r-b-a-g-e.

It is quite reasonable to expect his senior heavy team which returns all but one guy from last year's Sweet Sixteen run (and which actually added a couple of guys) to play well consistently.

That has not happened. In our toughest challenges, not many good performances.

We got destroyed tonight. Not many open 3balls on offense and not much else to turn to. Big surprise; they doubled DJ a lot (at least for first half). Where are the other options? Our hedging D got worked--Belmont's excellent ball movement and spacing on offense (notably unlike our poor spacing) tore us up for a ton of open looks at the rim and from 3-point land.

Reasonable to expect a run like last year's? No. Reasonable to expect better than we've seen...better than getting schooled on national tv like tonight late in the season. Probably.

This isn't 'Groce goggles.' It's more a game after game experience of 'what's going on...where's the consistent good play?'

this will draw your fire...but it's correct. last week's W over kents was a thriller. but, reflect. their record is not that good, they are not that good though better lately. but this was a home game in which we led by about 15 about 5 minutes into the second half--and it took a highlighter in overtime to win it. sorry; it should'be been won in regulation without the last minute being a huge sweat.

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!

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doubledribble
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 9:33:53 AM

You guys are spot on! EXCEPT for you Monroe, sorry.

Pataskala
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 9:58:12 AM

Embarrassing performances like last night always bring out the doomsayers. We all had very high -- maybe unreasonably high -- expectations after last season. We have so much talent and experience on the floor, it's hard to imagine that they shouldn't go out and win every game. But I think the team is still trying to find chemistry with the coaching staff. They were used to Groce's style as a coach and teacher, and really had a connection with him. They don't seem to be making the same connection with Christian. Not that either coach is right or wrong, better or worse. They're just different, and the team as a whole doesn't seem to be quite plugged into him as a coach and a teacher.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

catfan28
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 10:25:36 AM

We had many TERRIBLE losses under Groce. Several were to RPI +250 MAC teams.

Outside of the Winthrop game, we've yet to have a "bad loss". We just haven't performed well in games that we weren't supposed to win.

The EMU/Toledo swing last year was atrocious. Many wrote the season off at that point. I wouldn't get too worried after losing to a team that - at least by the numbers - is one of the best 25 in the nation.

bshot44
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 12:28:50 PM

Pataskala wrote:

+1

We will win 10-14 MAC games every year under Christian & will be the premiere program in this league. I fully believe that. He did it at Kent with far less resources. Now....will that transfer to NCAA success? I don't know. Going 0-for in non conf road games is not promising. But under JC we will ALWAYS be a favorite to make MAC title game....and our odds of multiple NCAA tourneys are good. This year is as frustrating as ever....but 11-1 in MAC & still alive for regular season title is pretty good. Just hope we show up in Cleveland....take care of business.....and get a favorable draw like last year. Lets be honest....if not for drawing UM & USF/Temple winner....Sweet 16 might not of happened. So much depends on draw.

Go Cats.... F Up Akron

Donuts
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 12:44:23 PM

The thing that bugs me the most about the Christian criticism is that there is this "he doesn't care" type of feeling towards him because he doesn't prance around, stomp his feet and basically act like a rabid animal on the sidelines. For some reason people think Groce is what every coach should act like. Frankly, at times he looks a bit childish and stupid out there with his antics. It works for him, but it doesn't work for everyone.

Some of the most successful coaches in basketball history (Phil Jackson and John Wooden to name a couple) preferred doing the work behind the scenes in practices and film, while staying relatively calm during the actual games.

cc-cat
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 1:09:47 PM

And if Christian was out there yelling and screaming at these guys the board would be filled with, "he needs to shut and get out of the way. These players went to the Sweet Sixteen last year and he is getting in the way."

UpSan Bobcat
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 1:26:05 PM

Donuts wrote:

Exactly. Way different style, but it doesn't mean he doesn't coach and certainly doesn't mean he doesn't care.

Donuts
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 1:51:36 PM

Another thing to bring up is matchups. Here are the three wins that landed John Groce the Illinois job:

Georgetown
Michigan
South Florida

I will fully give him the Georgetown domination, because I thought going in that was a terrible matchup for us. We shot 57% from three and 58% from the field. Those numbers will win you a lot of games. That game was played at a high pace, but we did give up 83 points. You don't win a lot of college games giving up that much to a team that runs the Princeton. It wasn't quite the efficiency of Villanova against the Hoyas in 1985, but it was close when it comes to just how easy we were scoring. This is what I feel the most legitimate tournament win we have had in this recent run, and it might have been the greatest offensive performance Ohio Basketball has ever had.

The Michigan game was an unreal draw for us. As soon as that game was announced, many shared similar thoughts that we would win this game. Before the Georgetown game, most were just hoping we weren't going to get embarrassed. I don't even think we played all that well, but Michigan just looked flat from the beginning. Again, credit is deserved, but that Wolverines team seemed to hit a wall. They missed some pretty good looks, and then made some bonehead plays down the stretch.

Finally, the South Florida game was ugly. I know the Bulls had a nice record, but they played offense like converted football players. No one could shoot, they couldn't really score period, and Ohio was good enough defensively that just an average offensive outing would win the game. Seriously though, if a team wins shooting less than 40%, that means their opponent was not very good.

Now let's look at Christian and see what landed him the TCU job:

Pittsburgh
UNLV

In 2006, Christian's team looked like they were ready for a tournament run, but, as is the case with many non-power schools, they have to shoot well and hope their opponent isn't equally as hot. Kent State didn't get that, as they shot 39% while Pittsburgh shot 67%. Do defensive schemes and such play a role in that? Maybe, but Pittsburgh was clicking in that game right from the beginning.

In 2008, Christian again has to fight through a terrible shooting performance from his team (36%). Yes, that's right, neither one of his tournament teams have eclipsed the 40% mark. UNLV didn't play all that well either, but they came away with a convincing win.

Both of those teams heading into the tournament were solid offensively. Sometimes, shots just do not fall. Sometimes, they do. Is that the difference when it comes to getting a chance at a big school? Yes, it most likely is. Tim O'Shea was heating up in coaching circles, and a win against Florida could have very well landed him a Big East job.

If NBA All-Star David Lee isn't there to catch an airball and put the ball in the basket, we could have pulled off the win against Florida. If Armon Bassett didn't find a way to stay eligible long enough to put together an unreal couple of weeks, we never get that shot against the Hoyas. If, if if...my main point in this very long and drawn out post is that a lot of these coaches at the end of the day are fairly similar. They have strengths and weaknesses, but luck and hot shooting nights dictates their fate quite a bit.

If we get in the NCAA tournament this year and shoot under 40% from the field against a solid team, we will lose by double-digits, and it wouldn't matter if Hunter, O'Shea, Groce or Christian was on the sidelines. An undersized team, which Ohio will be against a marquee school just about every time, has to shoot well for tournament success.

This overreaction to tournament wins is crazy, because in my opinion it tells more if you win consistently during the season. The tournament you just have to hope that everything comes together at the right time. You cant just flip an on and off switch. Christian is a couple of hot shooting nights in March away from being the toast of the town. Don't mess it up for him Nick Kellogg!

Big Tiddilly Widdilly
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 4:04:15 PM

KyleWvr13 wrote:

I can deal with losing because we just don't have the talent to compete or we lost a close game. I can't deal with losing when players are coming out flat and not getting back on the defensive end. It's unacceptable and it is coaching.

A-townBound
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 4:58:05 PM

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Even though this same team did not play consistently last year either? The sweet 16 run we still that same team.

Bleed Green and GO OHIO!!

Lande71
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 5:27:49 PM

The difference last night for me was quickness! We got "outquicked" (I know - word choice) all night on both ends of the floor. We couldn't do anything offensively because they were in our shorts all night. DJ could not do his usual because they always had someone in position to help and were"quick" enough to still cover everyone else. We rarely took advantage because they recovered so well due IMO to their quickness. Defensively they beat us to the punch all night! We couldn't stop their penetration all night. Even Ivo at 6-9 couldn't stop their little guard from scoring layups because he was too quick for Ivo. Ivo couldn't even get into position to block his shot! The hedge up top was a disaster all night. Reg did not stop them all night and got caught on the roll time after time with no help. We looked helpless! They executed very well against our Def. Someone wondered why we didn't play zone? I would be frothing at the mouth for someone to play zone against me with that team. They all could shoot, even the bigs, and would handle zones with ease.

More importantly Belmont had fun all night. How many times did you see guys smiling as they went back down court. Granted they had a lot to smile about. I think we have put immense pressure on ourselves all year. The pressure of a new coach and how well he would manage this team. The players have put pressure on themselves to live up to the hype caused by the sweet 16 run. The fans have put pressure on all of the above. All this does not bode well for the next few weeks IMO. I'm not sure how many times out of ten we could beat Belmont on a neutral floor let alone in the convo. They have us outmanned athletically and they were not any bigger than us.

Just my 2 cents worth. I for one believe they have had a good year, better than most I've seen in a long time!

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/24/2013 7:39:21 PM

A-townBound wrote:

Monroe Slavin wrote:

Even though this same team did not play consistently last year either? The sweet 16 run we still that same team.

Seriously? Exact same team with one more year of experience and more consistent, better play this year is not to be expected?

OU_Country
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/25/2013 10:47:11 AM

bshot44 wrote:

Pataskala wrote:

Consider who those non-conf road losses are against. They're all against teams near the top of their conferences. GOOD teams. I'm not saying don't be disappointed in the loss, but the road games that were taken on this year were all tough games.

OUVan
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/25/2013 11:15:07 AM

cc cat wrote:

LOL, awesome stroll back in time!!!

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/25/2013 12:04:00 PM

I'm confused. Everybody here keeps talking about last year's Sweet 16 run last year, and what a genius John Groce is.

But, I thought we fired John Groce after that 57 point loss to Kansas. I read a thread here about how Groce was "worse than Tim O'Shea", was running a "bush league program", and that the team was "poorly coached" and had "poor fundamentals". I also remember something about how at the "macro level, this program is "reminiscent of the Titanic". Did we not end up firing him then? I just assumed, based on how angry everybody was, that we fired him and I stopped paying attention. Apparently I missed some sort of postseason run? Who was coaching? Surely it couldn't have been the same guy that was steering that program that people were comparing to the Titanic, right?

Which is to say, a lot of people here need to step back from the ledge and completely re-calibrate their expectations. A #2 ranked Miami team that beat Duke by 27 just lost by 15 on the road to a Wake Forest team that lost by 26 to Iona and lost to the Richmond team that we beat by 25. Georgetown lost by 28 to Pitt at Home. Good teams have bad performances in college basketball all the time; it's a part of coaching kids. Belmont is a very, very difficult place to play, and that's the sort of team that nobody in college basketball wants to play on national TV on the road. Anybody who thought this team was going to be 30-2 at this point wasn't watching these guys play last season. This is a team with plenty of flaws that started playing very well at the right time, but it was never the sort of team that was going to coast through the schedule and easily beat good teams like Belmont on the road.

John Groce has been turned into something that he wasn't around here. He was a very good coach, a very good motivator, and I'll always have great memories of his two tournament runs. But he was hardly without his flaws, and Jim Christian is being held to a standard that John Groce never actually achieved. We've had some recent successes as a program, but let's not overstate what we've done, or understate how hard it is to repeat that sort of success. We are 20-7 right now, and 11-1 in the MAC. At this point last year, we were 21-6 and 8-4 in the MAC. We were inconsistent and lost games that we shouldn't have; people were complaining incessantly about DJ Cooper's shot selection and John Groce's coaching. If we win out, we'll have the exact same record at the end of this regular season that we did at the end of last season. But somehow, around here, Groce will be a God and Jim Christian will be a dime-a-dozen coach who can't win a big game.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: Please take the Groce Goggles off

Posted: 2/25/2013 12:31:23 PM

Ture. But also true is MAC very weak and same team as last year but one more year of experience, so reasonable to expect better than last year as far as regular season goes.

An example could be 'kron is about the same players as last year but is better this year.

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