BobcatAttack.com - For Fans of Ohio University Sports

Welcome Guest!
Create an Account

site search

about us

advertise with us

help

BobcatAttack.com Message Board

Ohio Basketball

Topic: Bright future for program still on track?

Topic: Bright future for program still on track?

Author

Message

BobcatPride
General User

Member Since: 3/14/2005
Post Count: 137

Status: Offline

Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/18/2013 5:00:42 PM

I recall, near the end of the NCAA tournament and Coach Groce leaving, talk about the desire to have the Ohio Basketball program take measurable strides forward in coming years. Talk along the lines of Ohio being like a Butler or Gonzaga, a school from a smaller conference, but having much greater success than most other similar programs.

You may remember, the attempts to scrape together enough money to keep Groce, the money paid to Christian to bring him on board, fundraising for improvements to the locker room area, things like that.

I'm wondering, in your opinions, given the results of this season, is this vision of a bigger and brighter future for Ohio Basketball still on track? Will the program truly build, become a year-in, year-out MAC power, and have greater success in the NCAA tournaments of the future? Or will we continue to get caught in the MAC Meatgrinder of Parity?

Donuts
General User

Member Since: 9/22/2010
Post Count: 730

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/18/2013 5:35:12 PM

There was no parity in the MAC this season. We lost to one team. Yes we are on track.

nam1975
General User

Member Since: 3/25/2012
Post Count: 30

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/18/2013 6:01:50 PM

Things to keep in mind w mid major comparisons.
Many are private schools.....Gonzaga, Butler, St Louis. No public institution obligations.
They spend money as they wish
also no football, which has financial and title 9 implications.

brucecuth
General User

Member Since: 12/21/2004
Post Count: 1,838

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/18/2013 6:27:05 PM

We have a LONG way to go before we can be compared to Butler or 'Zaga, and we will probably take a step back next year when we no longer have the best player in the school's history. I know we are all excited about Ndour, Wingfield and the transfers, but we should have learned our lesson with Kadeem Green. We have not seen any of them play yet, and consequently have no idea how good they really are. Four new starters? That rarely leads to championships at our level.

"Our level" leads to a comment about the MAC. This league is slowly descending down the ranks of the so-called mid majors. It has a very poor nonconference record against equal or higher level competition. Most wins within the league elicit a yawn from outsiders. Even if we had beaten Akron during the regular season, I doubt that would have been considered a "signature win" by anybody outside the MAC--I doubt anybody at Akron considers their victories over us to be of the "signature" variety. Without schools in major media markets, schools that sit atop the higher education pyramid in their individual states or are recognized nationally for their basketball tradition, it is hard to see this league improving. Sadly, it will probably continue to slide as the gap between "haves" and "have nots" widens.

Remember, Butler and Gonzaga (and St. Louis, for that matter) are private schools with a lot more flexibility to allocate resources. They also do not have to support D-1 football programs. Please, don't start with "but the football program could help..." That's not the point. The point is there is only so much money to go around.

Most important, if we are ever to have a sustained period of basketball excellence, several things have to happen. First we need to schedule AND WIN some tough nonconference games. We need to upgrade the home schedule. Once, just once, can't we get a name school to come here? Richmond was as close as we've gotten in the past few years. As I said in another thread, Schaus should be on the phone to Groce as soon as the dust settles this month and do whatever it takes to get Illinois to come here for one, single game in the next 2-3 years. How about a call to Bob McKillop at Davidson. For the next two years, he'll have 2 kids from Columbus on his roster. Get him to come to Athens so their friends and family can come see them play. Let's be creative....let's figure out a way to schedule a home game once in a while with Cincinnati, Dayton or Xavier. Now that the school is on semesters, we could probably get some nice crowds with the students still in town.

This next point is tough to deal with. We also need to become a destination coaching job, as Butler and 'Zaga have become. Yes, Jim Christian says this is a destination job for him. But lets be honest, if he was putting together championship teams at TCU, would he have come back to the MAC? Almost certainly not. Perhaps he's the guy to put this program on a sustained championship level, with "signature" regular season wins every year. For now, in my eyes, he's a good MAC coach who came back after he couldn't make it happen at the next level.

Perhaps this a good time to do some long range thinking. Do we really want to remain tethered to the MAC? What does it take to be a consistent, top 50 program that might get serious consideration for an at large bid? It might not even be possible, but if we want sustained excellence, a la Butler and 'Zaga, we have to start thinking differently. Otherwise, years like this one, successful but not satisfying, will be the best we can hope for on a regular basis. .

crackerbaby00
General User

Member Since: 3/8/2007
Post Count: 442

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/18/2013 10:41:48 PM

A few things that give me great hope for the future:

1) Experience - We are returning a number of guys that played a lot of minutes for us the last 2-3 years. Jon, Nick, and TJ have all started during their time here and have all played a lot of minutes. In addition, we have Stevie and Bean at the PG spot. While I am sure that neither can replace DJ, we must remember that one of them was the starting PG for a Big 12 team for a year before making his way to Athens, and the other showed great improvement between his freshman and sophomore year. I really think between the two of them, we will still be good at that spot.

2) Defense - Stevie, Ric, TJ, Jon, and Nick all have shown that they can play good defense when locked in. Add in Ndour, who is supposed to be a shot blocker/rebounder, we have the makings of another good defensive team. We know that all of our returning guys like to get out and run. Good defense can lead to those opportunities.

3) Size - If the sizes of our incoming recruits are accurate, we will be a much bigger team in the next few years than we have been recently. This size will hopefully allow TJ to slide back to the 3 spot, which should help defensively and with rebounding. Even Wingfield seems to have good size on the wing.

I think Christian has started off with a good first recruiting class. He will need to follow up with another good one to restock when next year's senior class of 5 leaves Athens. Another good one will keep the momentum going.

GoCats105
General User

Member Since: 1/31/2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Post Count: 7,456

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 12:30:08 AM

Still on track for sure. You know how many teams would kill to bring back 5 guys who played hefty minutes in the NCAA Tournament and succeeded? And won a MAC regular season championship? Plus Travis Wilkens who will only get better. Plus the new guys.

I've seen it on multiple threads saying we're going to be terrible after this season. Forgive me for stealing The Optimist's optimism, but this program is fine right where it is and poised to make another run at a MAC title. It's gonna be us and Akron again next year. Book it.

RSBobcat
General User

Member Since: 8/22/2010
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 4,437

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 12:44:34 AM

Some good stuff on this here thread! I agree with pretty much 100% of all posted so far! The parts I like agreeing with, as well as the parts that make me uncomfortable and I hate to have to agree with (those referring to the MAC and it's declining status per basketball).

Last Edited: 3/19/2013 12:45:09 AM by RSBobcat

RS Bobcat

Bobcatfanatic
General User

Member Since: 3/19/2013
Post Count: 9

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 7:52:19 AM

Team needs some big men to rebound. Something they lack, I think they will take a little dip next season as the MAC gets a lot better. Have to beat teams like RobertMorris that's been impossible to do recently. Also how long of a contract does Christian have and is he still a good coach?

OUVan
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Bethesda, MD
Post Count: 5,580

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 8:10:24 AM

It's one year people. One year. Yes the program is still on track. We've made the financial commitment to get better.

Ohio69
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 3,062

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 8:23:06 AM

BobcatPride wrote:

I'm wondering, in your opinions, given the results of this season, is this vision of a bigger and brighter future for Ohio Basketball still on track? Will the program truly build, become a year-in, year-out MAC power, and have greater success in the NCAA tournaments of the future? Or will we continue to get caught in the MAC Meatgrinder of Parity?

Year-in Year-out MAC Power? Yes, I believe we will continue to be one of the top 1-2-3 teams in the MAC.

Greater success in the NCAA tournaments of the future? I guess I wonder what you mean by this. 2010 proved that a 7-9 team can get hot and win an NCAA tournament game. So, who knows?

Will we get caught in the MAC meatgrinder of parity? I think we can be a top 1-2-3 team in the MAC so most of the time no, we should not be mediocre. But the John Groce era was mediocre in terms of the regular season.

I think we've got some real players who sat out this year. And, at least 2 guys coming in who look very good. So I'm optimistic this train is still bound for some glory.

Last Edited: 3/19/2013 8:24:03 AM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

Monroe Slavin
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 9:54:28 AM

MUST WE CCONTINUE WITH THE THOUGHT THAT WE WILL MOVE TO A BETTER CONFERENCE.

Most of us would like it.

BUT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE BIT---NONE, NONE, NONE--OF EVIDENCE THAT IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

PLEASE TRY TO STAY CONNECTED TO REALITY.

Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!

DesignspiritUSA.com
The Pets On The Go Collection of pet gear travel bags
The Holiday Tote Bigg Bagg Collection--over-sized, reversible, extra pockets; now love carrying packages as much as you love shopping!

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User

Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 4,099

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 10:35:55 AM

BobcatPride wrote:

Frankly, I don't think Gonzaga is a realistic comp or example for us. They made the tournament in 1999, won some games, and have been there every year since. They made a very conscious decision to fund their program and put it on par with national programs. They may not spend quite as much on basketball as a Duke or Kansas, but their annual basketball expenditures are closer to Duke than we are to Gonzaga. Likewise, Butler is a private school that was able to build on two final four runs and pay a very large amount of money over a long period of years to retain Brad Stevens. There are advantages to the private school model that OU simply can't match at this point.

In my mind, the comp that makes more sense is VCU. It's a public school that traditionally has had far less athletic success than other in-state public schools (UVA/Va Tech). They don't own the Virginia market, and even in Richmond they were considered the also-ran behind U of R for years. What they did, however, was manage to parlay a period of about 10 years of strong basketball into long term, prolonged success. And, contrary to popular belief, they didn't do it overnight and they didn't go to the tournament every year in the process.

Jeff Capel helped to build a strong program there, but never won an NCAA tournament game for them. Next, they hired an assistant from a big time program (Anthony Grant) who beat Duke in the first round of the tournament in his first year. The next year, they were upset by W&M in the CAA tournament, and missed the NCAA's and lost in the NIT in the first round. The year following, they went 24-10, won the regular season CAA title, but lost to UCLA in the first round of the NCAAs. At which point, Grant left for Alabama. So, if you're keeping score, between Capel and Grant, VCU compiled a 155-66 record and won a single NCAA tournament game.

Skaka Smart was then given the head job, and proceeded to go 27-9, which included 7 losses in conference, missed the NCAA tournament but ended up winning the CBI. You know, the tournament people around here think is beneath us. Finally, in 2011, they broke through by getting into the tournament as an at large, winning their play in game against USC, and famously knocking off Georgetown, Purdue, Florida State, and Kansas on their way to the final four. Since then, they've been to the tournament every year, and they've committed a ton of money to Smart and been added to the Atlantic 10.

So, what's the point? The point is that we need to be realistic and patient regarding our definition of success. VCU didn't beat Duke under Anthony Grant and then make the NCAA tournament every year after, what they did was establish a culture of winning, compete consistently for an NCAA tournament spot, recruit well, and most importantly, win a ton of basketball games. Bottom line is this: if you win games consistently, regardless of whether or not they're regular season games, CBI games, NIT games, or NCAA tournament games, people will take notice. If you're viewed as a program that's always competing for a spot in the NCAA tournament, recruits will take notice. And Jim Christian has shown he can win basketball games in this league, and while last year's run apparently made people impatient and spoiled and led them to believe that the only games that matter for a program like ours take place in the NCAA tournament, that's simply not the case. If we want to take the next step, we need to win a lot over a long period of time, consistently. Christian is the winningest coach in MAC history, percentage wise. If he continues that, it will mean very good things for our program, and the people who are jumping ship already have no sense of what it actually takes to build a long term winning program. It's not going to happen over night. There aren't going to be annual sweet 16 runs. But there will be a lot of wins, and if wins over teams like BG, Ball State, and Buffalo aren't good enough for you, I've got bad news: you're a fan of the wrong team. Because that's who we play.

Last Edited: 3/19/2013 10:37:09 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

Jeff McKinney
Moderator

Member Since: 11/12/2004
Post Count: 6,155

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 10:56:27 AM

Good post, Shame.

bornacatfan
General User

Member Since: 8/3/2006
Post Count: 5,716

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 11:28:47 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Really good post

MY big points with BUtler and Gonzaga has been twofold

1 Commitment. They have committed, the fans, the support staff, the program is committed to excellence. They were both in mid major conferences and committed to running them. That is an autobid yours for the picking every year if youare running your conference every year as the top dog and getting speration of your program form the pack.

2 Scheduling. Butler and the Zags both went on the road and shceduled up . As they were able to win and create a culture over a decade they got home and homes tO$U at Hinkle was a sight. Getting big teams into the Kennel is a wild one to stay up and watch.

I agree with your analysis of VCU and very much like it as it does take into account the public side of things.

I think OHIO fanbase is energized and if we can get a decade of runs I think we are set to enter that elite world that those teams occupy. Memphis is a good expample of that longevity from their initial foray a couple of decades back. UAB felloff the earth after building a good and what should have been sustainable product. Thier brand just did not sustain itself. OHIO has the campus, degrees available, atmosphere it takes to get recruits there. We still need some facelifts and tweaks with athletic nutrition, Dorms, a weight room and strength area in the COnvo rather than walking to peden in the middle of a sweaty winter practice for daily lifting and a place to get shots up when the COnvo is occupied but the program is on the way. Next year is critical in sustaining the run. It is a turning point and needs to be successful....

IMHO it is not good enough to compete inthe MAC. Dominating and creating seperation is where you make the leap. None of those programs mentioned up there got to where they were in a 5 year period. And none did it without scheduling tough and smart.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

GroverBall
General User

Member Since: 12/3/2012
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 1,281

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 12:13:43 PM

Shame,

Post of the season? I think you nailed it.

Logical, realistic, accurate, sensible, reachable. Well done.

Now let's go get Denver.

100%Cat
General User

Member Since: 1/17/2013
Post Count: 2,630

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 12:29:35 PM

GoCats105 wrote:

110% agree.

TWT
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,209

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 2:51:49 PM

Realistically the program is finally where it should be. I know some on here are hopeful that we can become part of the college basketball elite and make the tournament every single year like Creighton and Memphis with single digit seeds but that is aiming a too high. I've always thought though Ohio has the facility and fans to be on the level of Wichita State or Western Kentucky, in the tourney every other year and regularly winning 25 games. The program is now on the level of WSU or WKU across the board from wins to investment level. Ohio is no longer an average MAC team. Its a dominant MAC team acting like a real basketball school. The potential is there to get some decent seeds #10-#13 where a sweet 16 is realistic. A single digit seed in a big year like WSU or WKU. There is less parity in mid major conferences because programs with tradition can snag a quality high major transfer every year (Bassett, Offut, J.Smith, Green, Wilkins) guys like that aren't going to show up at Northern Illinois. Very proud of where the program is right now.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OU_Country
General User

Member Since: 12/6/2005
Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County
Post Count: 8,375

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 3:54:55 PM

Lots of great thoughts in there. The thoughts about comparing to VCU and Butler are very good. The biggest thing I think needs to be done for the future of the program relate to Borna's approach when it comes to scheduling. We need to play 5-6 games in the non-conf season with the "anytime, anywhere" approach. What's wrong with willingly playing a road game at UD, Xavier, UC, or Ohio State? No, we won't get the home game back, but who cares? And we need to play more schools regionally that are considered better than us. That means giving up 2 home games a year in order to play at places like Minnesota, Illinois, Pitt, or Va Tech, etc, along with playing non-conf games against other good regional teams in the MVC, A10, OVC, etc. Not only that, but find some way i the budget to buy one better home game a year. Don't get me wrong, I think we scheduled well this year, and simply didn't win the games that were scheduled that could have made the difference, but you have to keep scheduling big games like that.

One last thought along the scheduling conversation: What does it take to get involved in a decent holiday tournament in Nov/Dec? I don't think Ohio has been in one in awhile, and that seems like a good place to start with scheduling.

sargentfan
General User

Member Since: 3/16/2005
Post Count: 917

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 4:08:16 PM

I agree that scheduling a couple more games against higher RPI opponents would be beneficial. Any wins or close loses can really help one's tourney profile. However we have shown inability to win or play quality teams close during the preseason in the past, so I can understand Schaus wanting to wait some time for us to prove we could handle an extra away game or two against quality opponents.

Speaker of Truth
General User

Member Since: 1/26/2011
Post Count: 441

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 4:38:34 PM

Right on with Butler and Gonzaga. We do have one benefit they do not though, that is a up and coming football program. This has its set backs, like sucking up a ton of funds, but it also creates a ton of buzz. This also allows for our big sports to be in front of fans for most of the year. I think we will see both of them grow together. It is a little easier to get excited about basketball because making the ncaa tournament is much more exciting than making a bowl game. I think this can give the perception that we are much closer to being big time than we actually are. The key is continued success year after year, and this doesn't mean only making the tournament. Getting an at-large bid to the NIT is growth, having cooper hit those milestones is growth, increased attendance, sponsorship and donations is growth.

TWT
General User

Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 5,209

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 4:43:26 PM

One other sign of taking it to the next level is scheduling the additional home games under Schaus. The top programs all play 18-20 home games. That is a sign of investment and commitment to the program.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

GoCats105
General User

Member Since: 1/31/2006
Location: Seattle, WA
Post Count: 7,456

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 8:46:47 PM

OU_Country wrote:

NCAA Committee chair Mike Bobinski stated on Sunday that was a huge factor in picking at-large teams for this year's tournament and will probably remain that way, hence why MTSU got in. You don't necessarily have to win all of them, but you at least tried and put it yourself out there by scheduling tough games on the road. I hope we schedule tougher games, although this year wasn't bad with Memphis, Oklahoma, etc.

Speaker of Truth
General User

Member Since: 1/26/2011
Post Count: 441

Status: Offline

RE: Bright future for program still on track?

Posted: 3/19/2013 11:18:11 PM

We should schedule games that will get us the most prepared for MAC play. That may change from year to year on the difficulty scale, but we can't schedule like we are trying to get an atlarge bid. It is much more important to schedule for money reasons, that will help us grow.

Showing Replies:	1 - 23 of 23 Posts
Jump to Page:	1

View Other 'Ohio Basketball' Topics

There are 235 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com

235 Guests
0 Registered Users

There are no other users looking at this page.