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Topic:  The state of the game.

Topic:  The state of the game.
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/26/2013 7:56:08 AM 
I started complaining way back many moons ago and have been a long time advocate of cleaning up the game.

The current decade long movement of rewarding physical strength over balls skills is coming to a head.  Recent article www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2013/04/23/mens-statistics-scoring-and-fouls-low/2107661/ cites changes in the game based on the reward of being physical over the skills of dribbling, passing and shooting. WHen  shooter rises up and has a guding hand on the hip or a slap on the elbow there is a change in the physics of the flight of the ball. Being a pure jump shooter is unheard of in the game presently. Being able to run at players and bump or hold without a call has made the game a lot less watchable than it was a decade ago. THe commentary on one of the fouls in the Lousiville final was laughable. "they usually don't call that till the second arm is pulled away". kind of set me off.

Article is a good starty in the dialogue to get some change and get some balance between the kid who spends a ton of time in the gym developing his skills and the kid who spends a ton of time in the weight room and sacrifices developing his actual sport specific skillsets


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/26/2013 3:48:27 PM 
We live in the land of 48 oz porterhouse and big gulp soft drinks, etc. I don't think things will change anytime soon. I agree with you, but see no solution.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/26/2013 4:19:09 PM 
giacomo wrote:
We live in the land of 48 oz porterhouse and big gulp soft drinks, etc. I don't think things will change anytime soon. I agree with you, but see no solution.


   Reminds me of a stop I made with one of my brothers at a steak restaurant in Amarillo, TX, on a trip out west over 20 years ago. We started seeing billboards for the restaurant hundreds of miles before Amarillo advertising a challenge of eating a 64 oz. steak with all the trimmings in one hour. If accomplished the meal was free. If not you had to pay a hefty price (can't recall the exact amount). My brother gave up 10 minutes into the hour and I succumbed about 20 minutes later.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/26/2013 4:40:51 PM 
borna, my favorite quote from that game, may have actually been on the same play, was something along the lines of,"They usually don't call that because he got his hand on the ball first."  The fact that a nanosecond after he touched the ball he had knocked the former possessor of the ball flat on his ass apparently didn't mean a thing.  It seemed to me that that whole game was called that way, and that this call was one of the few called right that night. I know some here thought it was a well-called game because "they let 'em play."  I thought much differently.  It seemed to me to be football without helmets and pads.  I agree with you that we need more emphasis on basketball-specific skills and less on brute force basketball.  One thing I'd like to see that would help a little bit in this regard is to move the basket up to 11 feet.  I remember years ago SI did a study of this and had some experimental courts set up with 11 foot hoops. Interestingly, not only did it reduce a little the advantage of the Big Manz underneath offensively, it also resulted in a lot more missed shots being rebounded by the guards because the angle of arc of the ball on shots at 11-foot basket sent balls off the rim on missed shots at a different angle that often ended up away from the big men underneath.  Now, this is just one rather unscientific study conducted by SI so that might not be what would happen in real life, but I think it's worth investigating. 


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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/26/2013 6:53:27 PM 
I think things will come to a head soon. There are more and more complaints about the physicality and lack of skill in the game. What happens when the cries grow loud enough? Rule changes. They'll change to rules to open things up more.


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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/26/2013 7:43:06 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
giacomo wrote:
We live in the land of 48 oz porterhouse and big gulp soft drinks, etc. I don't think things will change anytime soon. I agree with you, but see no solution.


   Reminds me of a stop I made with one of my brothers at a steak restaurant in Amarillo, TX, on a trip out west over 20 years ago. We started seeing billboards for the restaurant hundreds of miles before Amarillo advertising a challenge of eating a 64 oz. steak with all the trimmings in one hour. If accomplished the meal was free. If not you had to pay a hefty price (can't recall the exact amount). My brother gave up 10 minutes into the hour and I succumbed about 20 minutes later.


When I was in school back in the 70's at Muskingum, they had one of those in Cambridge called Bear Creek.  I knew some pretty big eaters and a few who went there with the munchies.  No one ever ate the whole thing.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/27/2013 10:07:12 AM 
JSF wrote:
I think things will come to a head soon. There are more and more complaints about the physicality and lack of skill in the game. What happens when the cries grow loud enough? Rule changes. They'll change to rules to open things up more.


Unfortunately, it may take some serious injuries before they do anything.  The NFL and NCAA didn't do anything about helmet-to-helmet tackles and other skill-less forms of "tackling" until the frequency of paralyzed and brain-damaged players got to be intolerable.


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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/27/2013 11:25:44 AM 
Blow the whistle when there's traveling and palming.


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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/27/2013 10:25:05 PM 
No travelling, palming/carrying, contact, raise the hoop. How about all broadcasts in black and white while we're at it?


RS Bobcat

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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/28/2013 11:48:19 PM 
RSBobcat wrote:
No travelling, palming/carrying, contact, raise the hoop. How about all broadcasts in black and white while we're at it?


THat's funny. Black and white TV.

I am not all that excited about raising the hoop but you think by getting the game closer to the fundamentals that produced higher scoring and involved greater skills we would be taking it back to somewhere in the 60's? No one is advocating four corner offenses or getting rid of the shot clock.....just making it more watchable and valuing BASKETBALL skills over turning the game into a wrestling match or giving the offensive player an undue advantage with the ability to freeze the ball and gain an advantage with a first step or extra steps or on the other side limiting the ability of the defender to hack and slap or bump without consequence.


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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bobcat2nc
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/29/2013 12:58:38 PM 
I am also of the ilk that thinks today's game rewards physical play over position, quickness and intuition on the defensive side.  Conversely, it requires equal physicality on the offensive side to survive. (and maybe allows for palming, traveling and other offensive transgressions to be overlooked)

This trend, sometimes, forces the game to be called differently as the game progresses. Too many times this year it appeared to me that the referees let games get out of hand with physical play until an actual or near "incident" occurred.  After that point the game was called differently.   

Coaches recruit, teach to what the game has become.  There have always been those who have not only looked at what is current but what it possible which leads me to think that without some moderation we will eventually be looking at basketball games and wondering if we mistakenly showed up at an arena football game. The answer might become required helmets, knee pads and and elbow pads rather than different style of play.
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Lande71
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/29/2013 2:19:18 PM 
The physicality of the game was evermore apparent to me in this year's NCAA Tournament.  Rougher than ever imo.  Basketball is a game of "skills"!  Probably baseball and basketball are 2 games that represent a game of many skills, more than others.  Just my opinion!  Why would we want to take the skills away from the game of basketball?  That's what the physical aspect is doing and IMO will ruin the essence of the game.  The game should be played to show off the necessary skill sets needed.  It is not a wrestling match - Thank God!
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oldkatz
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/29/2013 4:47:26 PM 
On the topic of overly-physical play, I will allow Borna to give us the historical significance of why basketball players were (and are) called "cagers".  Borna, take it.


"All my inside sources tell me I have no inside sources." Salvatore "money bucks" Mafiosiano.

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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 4/30/2013 7:45:27 AM 
oldkatz wrote:
On the topic of overly-physical play, I will allow Borna to give us the historical significance of why basketball players were (and are) called "cagers".  Borna, take it.





required knowledge here in grade school LOL. I kid....

Chicken wire/chain link was used to seperate fans from players up into the 1930s. Fans often impeded or went toe to toe with opposing players or more often threw stuff on the court. The cage was done away with when the oob rules changed and there were becoming a ton of injuries due to using the cage in the same way hockey uses the boards. THe cage actually had a functional use speeding up the game as there was no OOB lines and they played it off the screen IIRC.

I have an actual picture from here in Muncie taken before 1928 where fans are hanging over the balcony blocking shots from going in the basket. I will see if I can scare that one up sometime. It is in a book called Hoosier Temples written by a friend of mine.





never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 5/2/2013 2:20:59 PM 

I tend to agree with Louis Orr on this.  I'm not sure decreasing the shot clock from 35 to 30 seconds will improve the game offensively.  Like Orr says, will this mean that teams will find better shots quicker?  Teams may end up firing up more bad shots than before. 

Allowing increasingly physical defense is probably a bigger factor in all this.  Teams just struggle to find good shots any more unless it's in transition.



Bowling Green State University’s Louis Orr is unconvinced, suggesting a shot clock that expires faster could further cause offensive numbers to suffer, the result of hasty possessions.

“The key is getting shots you can make,” Orr said. “You can shoot all you want, but if they are low-percentage shots, you are just giving the ball back quicker.”

Some believe efforts to speed up play ignores other culprits, ones they believe are more strongly linked to team scoring plummeting to 67.5 points per game — the lowest mark since 1951-52. Fouls called reached an all-time low, and teams shot fewer free throws than in any season since 1976.

Defining which acts of contact should warrant a foul is on the agenda for next week at the rules committee meeting.

“The game needs to be played at a faster pace, but it’s not just the shot clock that has to change,” Kowalczyk said. “I think freedom of movement has to be officiated better. There is way too much contact that’s allowed now. We’ve gotten away from a finesse game of basketball. Now it’s nothing but brute strength. That needs to change.”


Read more at
http://www.toledoblade.com/sports/2013/05/02/NCAA-mulls-shorter-shot-clock-starting-basketball-practice-earlier-in-fall.html#oweHMIxo1dDSPKVl.99
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 5/3/2013 7:56:01 AM 
Jeff McKinney wrote:



Bowling Green State University’s Louis Orr is unconvinced, suggesting a shot clock that expires faster could further cause offensive numbers to suffer, the result of hasty possessions.

“The key is getting shots you can make,” Orr said. “You can shoot all you want, but if they are low-percentage shots, you are just giving the ball back quicker.”

Defining which acts of contact should warrant a foul is on the agenda for next week at the rules committee meeting.

“The game needs to be played at a faster pace, but it’s not just the shot clock that has to change,” Kowalczyk said. “I think freedom of movement has to be officiated better. There is way too much contact that’s allowed now. We’ve gotten away from a finesse game of basketball. Now it’s nothing but brute strength. That needs to change.”


Read more at
http://www.toledoblade.com/sports/2013/05/02/NCAA-mulls-shorter-shot-clock-starting-basketball-practice-earlier-in-fall.html#oweHMIxo1dDSPKVl.99


nice find Jeff.

GLad that the coaches are realizing what change is doing to the game.


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 5/3/2013 9:38:08 AM 
Jeff McKinney wrote:

I tend to agree with Louis Orr on this.  I'm not sure decreasing the shot clock from 35 to 30 seconds will improve the game offensively.  Like Orr says, will this mean that teams will find better shots quicker?  Teams may end up firing up more bad shots than before. 

Allowing increasingly physical defense is probably a bigger factor in all this.  Teams just struggle to find good shots any more unless it's in transition.



Bowling Green State University’s Louis Orr is unconvinced, suggesting a shot clock that expires faster could further cause offensive numbers to suffer, the result of hasty possessions.

“The key is getting shots you can make,” Orr said. “You can shoot all you want, but if they are low-percentage shots, you are just giving the ball back quicker.”

Some believe efforts to speed up play ignores other culprits, ones they believe are more strongly linked to team scoring plummeting to 67.5 points per game — the lowest mark since 1951-52. Fouls called reached an all-time low, and teams shot fewer free throws than in any season since 1976.

Defining which acts of contact should warrant a foul is on the agenda for next week at the rules committee meeting.

“The game needs to be played at a faster pace, but it’s not just the shot clock that has to change,” Kowalczyk said. “I think freedom of movement has to be officiated better. There is way too much contact that’s allowed now. We’ve gotten away from a finesse game of basketball. Now it’s nothing but brute strength. That needs to change.”


Read more at
http://www.toledoblade.com/sports/2013/05/02/NCAA-mulls-shorter-shot-clock-starting-basketball-practice-earlier-in-fall.html#oweHMIxo1dDSPKVl.99


Good stuff and I'm with Louis.  The 24 second clock works in the NBA because the players are stupid good.  Gary Trent, the best player to grace a MAC court in the last 30 years was a marginal talent in the NBA.  NBA players don't miss open shots.  The average college player does.  People love to say they like when refs "let them play", but I don't.   IMO uber physical play off the ball kills offensive flow and makes a number of games unwatchable. 
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 5/3/2013 11:19:36 AM 
I think the game had a better flow in the days when teams had the freedom to work hard to get that 12-18 foot jump shot.  This is an oversimplification, but teams today tend to dribble drive and dish out to 20 ft for a three pointer. 

What would happen in football if teams got more points for a 40 yard FG than a 20 yard FG?  Can an analogy be drawn to the three point shot's effect on the game?  Maybe not, but it's an interesting question. 
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 5/5/2013 3:32:22 PM 
I think a lot of what's wrong with that game starts at the AAU level. Kids aren't taught how to play the game the right way anymore. They are scouted for their potential rather than their actual ability. Athleticism is trumping basketball IQ in the youth circuit, which is a travesty. It's a whole other discussion altogether, but much of the problems can be attributed to that IMO.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: The state of the game.
   Posted: 5/5/2013 7:37:21 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
I think a lot of what's wrong with that game starts at the AAU level.


Uh oh...


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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