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It studies Top 100 kids and shows a disturbing trend. There is not really an answer as long as the game of basketball is driven by Hoop Dreams and Money. The idea that a kid is not getting to play and a parent is dissatisfied often leads to those transfers at a younger age. It is IMHO what feeds the culture at the next level. Factor in Coaching changes and a few other things and Jeff Goodmans list of Collegiate transfers is going to grow every year bolstered by the high profile goings on at the HS level. Not sure what it teaches our kids but I suspect if it were followed out further into life the numbers of those kids transferring who become really successful in life will be skewed toward a lower % and their job history will look similar to their school history. Just my opinion based on guys I have observed over the years and anecdotal evidence. sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130801/college-basketball-transfer-study/index.html never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer..... The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game Back to Top Jeff McKinney Moderator Member Since: 11/12/2004 Post Count: 6,155 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/22/2013 10:43:48 AM  I completely agree with you, Borna.  Perhaps the most striking finding in the data is just how swiftly there has been a huge increase in transfers at both the HS and college levels. For Top 100 kids, perhaps one factor fueling the quick increase is the proliferation of basketball prep schools.  One of our own 2014 recruits, though not quite a Top 100 consensus player, is an example of that. Back to Top Kevin Finnegan General User Member Since: 2/4/2005 Location: Rockton, IL Post Count: 1,169 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/22/2013 1:56:38 PM  bornacatfan wrote: sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20130801/college-basketball-transfer-study/index.html While slightly alarming, I wouldn't consider this graph proof of a significant change. Realize that if they are talking about the top 100 recruits, that means there are 100 kids. Each kid then counts as a full percentage. So when looked at in raw numbers, you'll see there is not a drastic change: 2007--30 of the top 100 kids transferred 2008--31 of the top 100 kids transferred 2009--35 of the top 100 kids transferred 2010--38 of the top 100 kids transferred 2011--37 of the top 100 kids transferred Eight percentage points sounds much more alarming from the low to the high than just saying that in 2010, 8 more top 100 kids transferred than in 2007. Back to Top roar-room General User Member Since: 12/23/2010 Location: Cleveland, OH Post Count: 191 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/22/2013 2:07:43 PM  Fun with graphs! Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,734 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/22/2013 4:40:59 PM  I would expect more kids to transfer in the future. Coaches leave with time left on their contract and set that example. Then you have coaches not honoring their scholarship commitment and running kids off the team. Why wouldn't they take care of number 1? Last Edited: 8/22/2013 4:41:15 PM by giacomo Back to Top Monroe Slavin General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Oxnard, CA Post Count: 9,121 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/22/2013 10:08:06 PM  See that grass over there?  It's greener. NOW, GET OFF OF MY LAWN. Where's the band?! WHERE"S THE BAND?! DesignspiritUSA.com The Pets On The Go Collection of pet gear travel bags The Holiday Tote Bigg Bagg Collection--over-sized, reversible, extra pockets; now love carrying packages as much as you love shopping! Back to Top RSBobcat General User Member Since: 8/22/2010 Location: Columbus, OH Post Count: 4,437 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/22/2013 10:15:51 PM  Monroe Slavin wrote: See that grass over HERE?  It's greener. Fixed that for ya RS Bobcat Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/23/2013 11:07:15 AM  bornacatfan wrote: These numbers document the phenomenon down to the HS level and carry through the college careers. It studies Top 100 kids and shows a disturbing trend. There is not really an answer as long as the game of basketball is driven by Hoop Dreams and Money. The idea that a kid is not getting to play and a parent is dissatisfied often leads to those transfers at a younger age. It is IMHO what feeds the culture at the next level. Factor in Coaching changes and a few other things and Jeff Goodmans list of Collegiate transfers is going to grow every year bolstered by the high profile goings on at the HS level. Not sure what it teaches our kids but I suspect if it were followed out further into life the numbers of those kids transferring who become really successful in life will be skewed toward a lower % and their job history will look similar to their school history. Just my opinion based on guys I have observed over the years and anecdotal evidence. It starts well before high school. I had a talk with my son's AAU coach this summer and he was talking about how certain parents will move their kids from program to program to program in an ill-advised hunt for a program that will make their kid an instant star.  Finding the right fit is important but so is continuity.  Playing for a new team every year ultimately will have negative developmental effects IMO.  If the player already knows the system he's much more likely to be able to improve on the important little things that essentially determine how good of a player he can become.  Back to Top Monroe Slavin General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Oxnard, CA Post Count: 9,121 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/23/2013 12:37:29 PM  But, then again, every parent is correct in their assessment of their child's prospects. And, the easy path exists and must be pursued. My father played hoops at Michigan.  But we both knew very early on that I was significantly mediocre at best.  We survived. Where's the band?! WHERE"S THE BAND?! DesignspiritUSA.com The Pets On The Go Collection of pet gear travel bags The Holiday Tote Bigg Bagg Collection--over-sized, reversible, extra pockets; now love carrying packages as much as you love shopping! Back to Top bornacatfan General User Member Since: 8/3/2006 Post Count: 5,716 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/24/2013 10:26:36 AM  finnOhio wrote: While slightly alarming, I wouldn't consider this graph proof of a significant change. Realize that if they are talking about the top 100 recruits, that means there are 100 kids. Each kid then counts as a full percentage. So when looked at in raw numbers, you'll see there is not a drastic change: Eight percentage points sounds much more alarming from the low to the high than just saying that in 2010, 8 more top 100 kids transferred than in 2007. WHen put in that context you are absolutely correct. I included in my opine "anecdotal " evidence as to those of us who have been around basketball over the years and followed recruiting, summer ball (formerly known as AAU), college ball and parents of kids with Hoop Dreams far deeper than the Top 100 and into the Top 1000 the transfers, movement in SUmmer Ball teams, and disruption within programs goes far deeper. When you amplify those 8 % points in the Top 100 across 50 states and look at those HS and Club programs you see that a much bigger problem exists. Having lived in that system and counseling parents and athletes who are in a snit not to jump ship and to sit tight or improve attitudes and practice habits this article resonated with me. Form the 80's to the 90's we did not see much movement. In the Early 2000's we saw a bit as kids like Robert Vaden won an Indiana HS Championship at Pike HS and then headed out to Prep School for his senior year. 2 College stops and a journeymans life in Europe he is still playing but seemingly never easy to get along with and not ever happy where he is.. INstead of learning to deal with things in the locker room and life he is indicative of an ever increasing me first attitude of players up and down the line who have talent but never play on cohesive teams.....much due to their own individual contribution to the team. I think 2006 was the year when things really started turning and that jump of 8 points reflected in the Top 100 what I saw in greater numbers down the line. It is also the time when I saw great coaches start getting their Principals licenses or stepping away from the game to just teach. The coaches I talked to over the years cite parents, fluid movement of kids that had been cultivated in their programs for years transferring to schools that played harder schedules or to play with guys they has played with in SUmmer Ball. as the reasons for leaving the game. I was interested in the numbers because they reflect what I see....a growing shift in the culture of basketball at the lower levels. DOn't think Coach is playing your kid? MOve him. Don't agree with the style of play? Move him. Don't like the position he is playing (my boy gonna be a PG in college!) Move him. ................Never tell your kid.....Look son, the more positons you can play the more desirable you are,...or ..Look you earn your time in practice, if you do not bring it every day with 90 minutes of intensity you do not deserve to play. ....or.....you never know what style you are going to play  in College, learn to work within a system and maximize your skills.....or ...Look SOn, there are 341 D1 programs that need 3 or 4 players a year. If you are not working to be one of the best kids in your own HS program how do you expect , out of 50 states times that many schools with 15 guys on a squad, to be oney of the 12-1600 that get a scholarship in your recruiting class?  The best advice is .....Get in the gym with your kid and help him get better. Deal with his skills and honing them. There are times when a move to another program is a better situation. I know that. Lived it. By and large though the attitude that is behind that 8 point jump above is really confirmatory of a new attitude I see way down the line and is a bit distressing to actually see documented. What will be interesting is to see in the next 5 years where it goes. I see in the figures they have documented what I believed and was chastised for when I spoke out on an indiana HS board when a kid named Walt Offutt committed to tOSU as an 8th grader. Early commits are flawed. WIthout going into an equally lengthy conversation I will just acknowledge that they did an nice job with that info. Time always tells ..... but the game is changing and this is a pretty good indicator of how that has ripples from grade school to overseas and the NBA never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer..... The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game Back to Top BillyTheCat General User Member Since: 10/6/2012 Post Count: 10,417 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/25/2013 9:33:04 AM  bornacatfan wrote: finnOhio wrote: While slightly alarming, I wouldn't consider this graph proof of a significant change. Realize that if they are talking about the top 100 recruits, that means there are 100 kids. Each kid then counts as a full percentage. So when looked at in raw numbers, you'll see there is not a drastic change: Eight percentage points sounds much more alarming from the low to the high than just saying that in 2010, 8 more top 100 kids transferred than in 2007. WHen put in that context you are absolutely correct. I included in my opine "anecdotal " evidence as to those of us who have been around basketball over the years and followed recruiting, summer ball (formerly known as AAU), college ball and parents of kids with Hoop Dreams far deeper than the Top 100 and into the Top 1000 the transfers, movement in SUmmer Ball teams, and disruption within programs goes far deeper. When you amplify those 8 % points in the Top 100 across 50 states and look at those HS and Club programs you see that a much bigger problem exists. Having lived in that system and counseling parents and athletes who are in a snit not to jump ship and to sit tight or improve attitudes and practice habits this article resonated with me. Form the 80's to the 90's we did not see much movement. In the Early 2000's we saw a bit as kids like Robert Vaden won an Indiana HS Championship at Pike HS and then headed out to Prep School for his senior year. 2 College stops and a journeymans life in Europe he is still playing but seemingly never easy to get along with and not ever happy where he is.. INstead of learning to deal with things in the locker room and life he is indicative of an ever increasing me first attitude of players up and down the line who have talent but never play on cohesive teams.....much due to their own individual contribution to the team. I think 2006 was the year when things really started turning and that jump of 8 points reflected in the Top 100 what I saw in greater numbers down the line. It is also the time when I saw great coaches start getting their Principals licenses or stepping away from the game to just teach. The coaches I talked to over the years cite parents, fluid movement of kids that had been cultivated in their programs for years transferring to schools that played harder schedules or to play with guys they has played with in SUmmer Ball. as the reasons for leaving the game. I was interested in the numbers because they reflect what I see....a growing shift in the culture of basketball at the lower levels. DOn't think Coach is playing your kid? MOve him. Don't agree with the style of play? Move him. Don't like the position he is playing (my boy gonna be a PG in college!) Move him. ................Never tell your kid.....Look son, the more positons you can play the more desirable you are,...or ..Look you earn your time in practice, if you do not bring it every day with 90 minutes of intensity you do not deserve to play. ....or.....you never know what style you are going to play in College, learn to work within a system and maximize your skills.....or ...Look SOn, there are 341 D1 programs that need 3 or 4 players a year. If you are not working to be one of the best kids in your own HS program how do you expect , out of 50 states times that many schools with 15 guys on a squad, to be oney of the 12-1600 that get a scholarship in your recruiting class? The best advice is .....Get in the gym with your kid and help him get better. Deal with his skills and honing them. There are times when a move to another program is a better situation. I know that. Lived it. By and large though the attitude that is behind that 8 point jump above is really confirmatory of a new attitude I see way down the line and is a bit distressing to actually see documented. What will be interesting is to see in the next 5 years where it goes. I see in the figures they have documented what I believed and was chastised for when I spoke out on an indiana HS board when a kid named Walt Offutt committed to tOSU as an 8th grader. Early commits are flawed. WIthout going into an equally lengthy conversation I will just acknowledge that they did an nice job with that info. Time always tells ..... but the game is changing and this is a pretty good indicator of how that has ripples from grade school to overseas and the NBA Excellent post and insight! Back to Top Mike Coleman Administrator Member Since: 12/21/2004 Location: Near the Pristine Sandy Shores of Lake Erie, OH Post Count: 1,648 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/25/2013 1:01:15 PM  I'm not surprised at this data. I've seen the same thing all the way down to 8-year-old travel teams in basketball and soccer. I would be interested to see another graph showing the Division I coaching carousel. I bet the trend lines might be similar. Back to Top bornacatfan General User Member Since: 8/3/2006 Post Count: 5,716 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/25/2013 2:00:54 PM  Mike Coleman wrote: I'm not surprised at this data. I've seen the same thing all the way down to 8-year-old travel teams in basketball and soccer. I would be interested to see another graph showing the Division I coaching carousel. I bet the trend lines might be similar. I am betting trend lines in D1 coaching will reflect the amount of money thrown at programs and salaries in the last 15 years. Fanbases with unreal expectations and "what have you done lately" mentalities fueling the arms race have . IMHO. been the catalyst  for college coaches on the carousel and are independent of the numbers of kids from Grade School on into the Pros (My baby gonna be the next Michael Jordan)  listening to parents who way overvalue the skillsets of their children. I would love to see the research on the increase in volatility of coaching positions in HS, college and the NBA ....I am thinking that the run up of "FANS" and the increase in money/arms race/facilites and need for interest/donations has fueled the Coaching situation. When I talk to aspiring young men I tell them NEVER to go to a school to play for a coach.  THis is what I tell them. " YOu will be going to get an education, you will be going to a place that has a wealth of resources and if you use them you will be set for life beyond basketball, I will repeat what I heard a great coach say to a kid who was waiting for a B10 ride ...."son you have  a Butler offer in hand,,,,when your shot is not falling, when your coach...and quite possibly not the coach who recruited you is on your case, your girlfriend is dumping you and you just got home from a late bus ride and have to get up for an 8 oclock class that you are having a hard time with you need to be in a place where you are going to wake up , look around and be very happy that you are there"  Those were words that are true. YOu can't go to IU if you want an engineering degree, take the PU ride....school has to fit. YOu are not going to be happy if you are recruited over for your postion....school has to fit. YOu are not going to be happy if you can't adjust to an urban or rural campus, school has to fit. NO matter what you do with basketball the school has to fit....that is who is giving you the ride.....not the coach" That said.....As a result of the coaching changes and the facilities races ..........., I *DO* think what an athlete and his parents sees as his future has lead to putting kids on a path to take advantage of the riches the basketball world has in store for them indirectly leading to this situation. never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer..... The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game Back to Top Jeff McKinney Moderator Member Since: 11/12/2004 Post Count: 6,155 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/26/2013 12:44:22 AM  Good stuff.  Flat  out good stuff. Back to Top Mike Coleman Administrator Member Since: 12/21/2004 Location: Near the Pristine Sandy Shores of Lake Erie, OH Post Count: 1,648 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/26/2013 8:46:18 AM  Well said borna. That's what I was looking at. I think both the coaching carousel and player transfer issues somewhat independently come down to money, but sometimes they are looking at getting their hands on a piece of the same dollar. And it's not just hoops. I have friends who have spent about $15,000 on their high school daughter's various volleyball clubs, including all the tournaments, etc., to get her a college scholarship. Hopefully it works out for them, as that's still quite a savings over the full cost of college. And from my end, coaching a successful team last year, you wouldn't believe the parents of other programs who are trying to get me to ditch this kid or that kid next year and get their kid on my team. I'm going back to the five-year-olds instead. Back to Top BillyTheCat General User Member Since: 10/6/2012 Post Count: 10,417 Status: Offline     RE: Interesting findings on Transfers.    Posted: 8/26/2013 12:16:40 PM  Local SE Ohio kid has transferred this season (his senior) from a highly successful program to the IMG Academy in Florida for Football.  Cost of the year $53,000.00 Mike, and that club Volleyball is a racquet that needs to have some IRS agents looking into some of these organizations.  And many are selling a bill of goods without ever being honest, kind of like the Donald Trump school Back to Top Showing Replies:   1 - 16  of 16 Posts Jump to Page:   1 View Other 'Ohio Basketball' Topics                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               WHO'S ONLINE There are 275 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com 271 Guests 4 Registered Users:   Jonesy1017, L.C., shabamon, FJC31 There are no other users looking at this page.

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