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Topic: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Topic: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

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Jeff McKinney
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Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 12:35:25 AM

When Dr. Naismith tacked up the first peach baskets, his intentions were that people would put the ball in the basket. The team with the most baskets wins. Playing a good game was defined by shooting more basketballs in the peach baskets than the other team.

Now, our current form of college basketball attempts to turn this basic principle on its head. Almost all coaches and many players are frequently quoted as saying, "We executed really well, but we just couldn't get out shots to fall. It was just one of those nights. Whatcha gonna do?"

Its almost gotten to the point that making baskets is seen as a product of chance. You throw the ball up there and the basketball godz determine whether it goes in or not.

We are told that defense is the most important part of the game. "You can't control whether your shots will fall, but you CAN determine whether you play good defense." Oh, really?

In the words of Keith Jackson, "Whoa, Nellie!" IMO, shooting the ball well is the most basic task in the game. It's the most basic execution factor. If you have a bad night shooting the ball, it isn't time to shrug your shoulders and defer to the fates or the basketball godz. Why not just admit that you didn't do a good job in the most basic execution factor?

Yeah, I understand what coaches and players really mean...that shooting is difficult and that it's important to play defense because that's easier to be consistent at. If you're competing against a superior defensive team, they'll make it more difficult to score. Its more difficult to shoot well when youre the visiting team, etc. BUT it seems to me we've gone way too far in discounting the execution responsibility for shooting the ball into the basket. (Notice I avoiding irritating some of you who hate the term, "score the ball.")

Your thoughts??

Pataskala
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 6:47:17 AM

Kids learn to shoot a b-ball before they learn to dribble (uh, a b-ball, that is) so they've had more experience with shooting than with other aspects of the game. But I've often wondered why one shot will swoop down the inside of a rim and fall through the net while another from the same player will swoop down the inside of a rim, do a u-turn and fly back out. Spin of the ball, I guess, but the same player should be putting the same spin on every shot. Maybe the physics or geometry majors can answer that.

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bornacatfan
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 7:28:47 AM

I preached this starting in the late 90's

Many coaches were moving to favoring athletes over players. It seemed to be watching games at all levels that shoting was secondary. THe ball was put in play toward the rim and the athletes were just to go and get it. It was, at the time, distressing to me.

Many coaches I talked to back then were encouraging refs to"let them play" and were supported by fans clear down to the grade school level. Boy's Club games resounded with parents not yelling " slide your feet Jimmy, quit reaching" but gave more to cries of "let em play".

Shooting suffered and continues to as a whole. On the other side there are guys who became sharp shooters. At the very top of the game shooting techniques became refined and a select few got really good with numbers approaching 50% from behind the arc.

I think fans and coaches made this bed. Guys like RIck Mount and Adrian Dantley could not survive in todays game. They were finesse jump shooters that would have been beat up badly. Jamerson was pretty tough but with the physical punishment he would have had to change his shot significantly as a pure jump shooter in today's game is not going to get that shot off fast enough to avoid getting pounded. In 2007 or so there was a mandate to :"stay with the shooter:" as there were a spate of injured shooters from contact on or AFTER the shot as the refs followed the ball into the basket rather than observing the contact after the shot.

I think a guy like Tom Norland at swish22.com and Paul Hoover at Pro shot ...(.go to youtube and search using the terms Pro Shot Coach)...... are starting to go down to the grade school level and provide free videos and guides on teaching shooting. Jay Wolf sells a shooting strap for the guide hand and travels teaching shooting as well. As parents the info is there but I doubt that many of the parents I meet want to hear about spending hours in the gym with their kids or even just checking their form ....or even kids that want to put time into honing a skill the correct way....nor do I hear coaches that really want to learn how to teach shooting ...especially at the HS level. What Hoover has done to quantify the physics and biomechanics of shooting is astounding. That folks are resistant to changing the way of thinking aoout shooting while their kids and players are under 40% is astonishing to me. If they suck why not listen to change or deviate from how you were taught? Funny....a guy tells me he is sticking with how he was taught because his was a great coach.....and research shows in the 4 yeats the guy played he or his HS team shot less than 35%. ,,,,,Really?

Until shooting and fundamentals creep back into the game and the emphasis is less on pure athleticism and more on skill sets you will see the game being coached, reffed and played the way it is today. Someone or an entire body of someones believes that is the product fans want to see and have put the model in place.

Just one man's opinion on shooting.

Last Edited: 1/24/2014 7:32:57 AM by bornacatfan

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bornacatfan
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 7:37:59 AM

Just as an aside....Dr Naismith was the ONLY coach at Kansas U (see what I did there) to have a losing (not loosing) record. Fun facts.

Lande71
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 7:51:23 AM

Borna - I believe that you are right on!!!!

Antonio Pierce
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 7:57:45 AM

Belmont strikes me as a team with the emphasis on fundamentals, especially shooting, versus athleticism. I wish we leaned more toward that model.

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GoCats105
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 8:26:12 AM

A prime example of this was the Kentucky/UNC game earlier this year. Both teams have the best recruits you can get out on the floor and not one of them shot well from the field or even the damn FT line! How is that possible? There's no one guarding you, you're a 5-star blue chip recruit and you can't make a FT to get you outta jail or to save your life. Funny, I listen to Coach Calipari's radio show on ESPN 1530 and he's like "they make 'em all the time in practice! I don't know what to do!" C'mon coach.

It's all about how technique is taught from the grade school level up. We had basketball camps and biddy ball in my hometown starting at the 3rd grade. You learned basic fundamentals of shooting, ball handling, passing and defensive stances. I wonder if you ask a 5-star recruit if they know what BEEF is what their answer would be? No, not the cow meat. BEEF. Every shooter should know what BEEF is.

Balance
Eyes (on the front of the rim)
Elbow
Follow through

That's another reason I think we were and are spoiled with guys like Halbert, Tommy, Nick and Bubba who could actually shoot the damn thing. You think Syracuse misses a guy like Andy Rautins or Jerry McNamara when they get into the tournament and can't shoot? When's the last time UNC had a good shooter from outside?

bornacatfan
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 9:19:42 AM

GoCats105 wrote:

Every shooter should know what BEEF is.

Ha

don't say that in front of Hoover.....he willtell you BEEF is dead.....and then he will tell you why..... probably has a video amongst his 10 deadliest lies of shooting on Youtube.

Then we willsee if you are smart enough to say....."Wow, I see the light " or continue to shoot 35% using BEEF or if you say..."hey let me try the new stuff....maybe I was taught old school and change is good"

Because I have THIS conversation at least once a week with coaches of teams shooting around 30%.

Last Edited: 1/24/2014 9:20:26 AM by bornacatfan

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 9:26:46 AM

Davidson and Seth Curry got it for a few years.

I think the rule changes/changes in emphasis in reffing to reduce hand checking on the perimeter, etc., is partly a response to the problems of shooting the ball.

My main point is, it makes no sense to me to talk about shooting as if its not part of offensive execution. "We had a great night, but the darn shots just wouldn't fall." I'm saying take responsibility and say, "We didn't shoot well."

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 9:28:12 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

Just as an aside....Dr Naismith was the ONLY coach at Kansas U (see what I did there) to have a losing (not loosing) record. Fun facts.

It would have been the ultimate irony if Kansas had fired Dr. Naismith. Firing the freakin inventor of the game.

Robert Fox
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 9:29:57 AM

Great opening post, Jeff. My son's team is suffering from exactly this problem, and I have been guilty of making that exact statement, "our shots just didn't fall." I looked at one of the Pro Shot videos. One player looked familiar...

bobcat695
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 9:43:28 AM

I take my boys to Hoover. The videos he shows to debunk BEEF are pretty funny.

Most of the teams at the youth level are playing zone defense (which I hate at that age). They are more worried about winning than teaching the game. There are two ways to beat a 2-3 zone, 1) penetrate the gaps in the zone, and 2) make outside jumpers. Ohio did neither particularly well vs. BG.

My kids are 10 & 12 and we had this very discussion Wednesday night on the way home from the Convo. We were listening to Russ and Rob and they said Ohio was 6-22 from 3 pt. range. I told the boys that defensively, BG was held to 58 points, which should be good enough to win the game. Outside shooting was the problem. A team cannot shoot 27% from outside and expect to win easily. Making 3 more shots would have been a 40% night, and a win. Most of the 3 pt. shots taken Wednesday were good shots. Nick's last attempt was the only one that wasn't a good, open look. Being a good shooter is really a lost art.

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GoCats105
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 10:46:22 AM

bornacatfan wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

Every shooter should know what BEEF is.

I'd be interested to hear what he says, absolutely. And I would probably listen and use the information as well. I don't think BEEF is the be-all, end-all when it comes to shooting, but it's a good starting point for younger kids.

JSF
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 1:30:00 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Davidson and Seth Curry got it for a few years.

Stephen was at Davidson, Seth Duke.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

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Jeff McKinney
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 3:15:53 PM

Thanks, JSF.

Casper71
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 3:19:57 PM

Well, perhaps it wasn't our shooting that cost us the game other than the fact that Stevie and Bean were 0-4. I sometimes wonder why they have the green light...

Perhaps it was Points in the Paint, Turnovers and 2nd Chance Points that cost us this game. We lost all those categories. And, those categories aren't exactly X and Os. More like working hard in the post area and playing with some smarts.

The shooting will be fine over 30 games...the other two better change real fast!

Lande71
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/24/2014 3:54:18 PM

Extremely interesting to me is the Pro Shot Coach concepts. If what I am about to say seems like I'm blowing my horn - it was not mean't to be that way! I have coaching experience and also date myself back to the late 60's graduating HS in 1971 when zone defenses were the norm. No, I did not shoot the ball underhanded! :) This is interesting because I am guilty of teaching shooting using the "beef" method although I feel like we used another four letter term that I frankly can't come up with. Beef just doesn't sound right to me. I always thought something was missing in this teaching as I tried to compare my shooting to what we were teaching. Not to blow my horn - but I was considered a very good shooter and therefore scorer. I shot 55% from the field as a senior shooting mostly 3 pters. that only counted 2 in that day. I've been told my form was the best they had seen. My main difference that bugged me all these yrs. was that I would obviously focus on the rim until I released the ball. Then I would catch myself finding my hand and following the arc of the ball to the basket, almost willing the ball to go in. I never taught kids to look as I just described because the "beef" method was "the way" to teach shooting. "Focus" on the rim! Because I could shoot so well, I always was the shooting instructor. I think this Pro Shot method has some real merit and I believe what they are advocating teaching. Somehow I was able to develop those principles on my own. I always attributed my success to my thumb! It is longer than most people with my size of hand. Comparing hands, my thumb was most always longer than even those w/ larger hands, longer fingers. Not sure now what effect that may have had? I also attributed my success to the fact that I shot it alot all thru my younger days. Living in the country, I would shoot on a stone driveway and get mad if I didn't make so many in a row, etc. So, I kept shooting. The wind was a factor at times and I would have to shoot to account for the wind alot. I got good at it! I also shot the ball when there was snow on the ground. Mind you that is when the only ball you could buy was the old nylon ball that went flat in the cold. I would put on the old brown gloves, take my ball, dribble it only to have to pick it up on the ground because it wouldn't bounce, then shoot it. I did this until my fingers froze to the point I would cry when I came in the house trying to warm them w/ warm water. Those were the days!

Bornacats info got me to thinking about all this today. Probably too much reminiscing for you all, but actually making some sense to me. I just looked at some of the videos for the first time today. Maybe some of this will help those of you who are still in the coaching ranks or working with young kids.

Bornacats and other's comments above regarding recruiting athletes vs. Basketball Skilled Players that can shoot is dead on! I mentioned in the chat room the other night after the BG game that very same thing because I don't think we have the shooting/scoring potential to beat good zones. Too many times I hear that this player is a good athlete where I'd rather hear they are very skilled on the floor and can shoot/score!

RSBobcat
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/25/2014 12:43:01 AM

First look at this thread. 16 replies - did not read a single one. Bull crap premise - so why read through. "Playing Great" is on both sides of the court, and includes taking care of the ball. We lost to BGSUCKS because of stupid turnovers (AKA "controlables") more than any other single factor in that game. Period.

Last Edited: 1/25/2014 12:44:37 AM by RSBobcat

RS Bobcat

JSF
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/25/2014 2:04:43 AM

RSBobcat wrote:

If you had bothered to at least read the first post, you'd realize you're not even in the same conversation.

RSBobcat
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/25/2014 2:43:21 AM

JSF wrote:

RSBobcat wrote:

If you had bothered to at least read the first post, you'd realize you're not even in the same conversation.

And the reference to turnovers in that was?

RS Bobcat

Good cat Good cat
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/25/2014 11:22:21 AM

If you watch a game from as recent as the late '80s or so on ESPN Classic or something, it is amazing how much the college game has changed - the first thing that I noticed was that no one carried the ball - or, at least up until the early 90's or so. The other big difference has been less hacking on defense - seems like everyone goes for the steal over the last 15 years or so. I agree that 90% of kids these days cannot consistently shoot the ball. I see many kids starting in middle school or so releasing jump shots just past the peak of their jump - they try and hang in the air as long as they can and they end up 'throwing' the ball up at the rim as opposed to shooting it. Somewhere between 1987-90ish thru 1994-95 or so, the college game significantly changed (or is it just me?)

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/25/2014 1:57:46 PM

RSBobcat wrote:

JSF wrote:

RSBobcat wrote:

If you had bothered to at least read the first post, you'd realize you're not even in the same conversation.

And the reference to turnovers in that was?

This thread is not discussing the BGSU game. At all. I put a quotation there with quote marks to indicate a common refrain we hear all the time from college coaches and players. Then my initial post tried to evaluate it. This thread is about shooting in the college game overall. Not in the BGSU game. Since we're talking about shooting, why should anyone have brought up turnovers?

BTW, I agree with you that the statement in quotes in the title of the thread is "bullcrap". My whole point was to try to refute the bullcrap.

How bout those Cats today, RS!?

JSF
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/25/2014 3:42:13 PM

I've said this before (and I'm hardly the only), but JC's history tends to be of teams that can't shoot the ball well. I'm worried we're trending in that direction.

LongDistancebobcat
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/25/2014 8:09:32 PM

JSF wrote:

I've said this before (and I'm hardly the only), but JC's history tends to be of teams that can't shoot the ball well. I'm worried we're trending in that direction.

Really? Armon Gates, Eric Haut, Kevin Warzinski, Al Fisher, Youngblood, even Chris Singletary. TJ Hall shot poorly today, but hasn't he been a decent shooter in his career? I'm not sure that poor shooting performances lately really ties into the coach or his style. Too many fans are too quick to give credit or blame to coaches after games. When a win occurs, it doesn't necessarily mean one coach outcoached the others. Missed free throws can win or lose a game, and frequently do, but is that a coach's fault?

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Xs and Os: "We played great, but our shots just wouldnt fall."

Posted: 1/25/2014 9:21:58 PM

JSF wrote:

I've said this before (and I'm hardly the only), but JC's history tends to be of teams that can't shoot the ball well. I'm worried we're trending in that direction.

Most recently you were complaining about the slow pace of Christian's teams...where do we rank on that?

On shooting, I know you said trending, but we don't rank that low in the conference in FG percentage. I think this is a phase we're going through and that we'll shoot better as the season progresses.

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