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Topic:  A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops

Topic:  A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/13/2014 8:20:06 PM 
Interesting article from a strange source. Area code 304, got to be somewhere over by the WV state line area. 

I am going to check with my officials over here in Indiana RE the 3 second rule. Never saw that interpretation in the casebook. That interpretation follows the 5 second closely guarded rule. Never heard it applied to 3 seconds. 


 www.bordaslaw.com/blog/2014/02/the-most-misunderstood-rules-in-basketball-stop-yelling-at-the-officials-youre-wrong.shtml




never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

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Pete Chouteau
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/13/2014 8:27:51 PM 
My first thought was over the back.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/13/2014 8:40:28 PM 
Thanks, borna, for an interesting read.

Here's the excerpt from the article that I consider the most misunderstood rule.  In essence, you can't travel until you actually have control of the ball.  I've heard fans yell "traveling" when a guy who is fumbling the ball takes a step or two and is not called for traveling.  Here's what the article says about that situation:
 
 

Theoretically, a player could fumble/juggle the ball from one end of the floor to the other, and no violation would have occurred. I often see plays where one team has a 3-on-1 fast break. The point guard throws a bounce pass to his teammate on the wing, who is breaking for the hoop. The player bobbles the pass and takes several steps before going up to lay it in. The fans go bananas, screaming for what they believe is an obvious travel. Nine times out of ten they are wrong, because the player who bobbled the pass never established a pivot foot. Thus, no travel.


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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/13/2014 8:48:58 PM 
I have to think an official that sees someone juggling the ball from one end of the court to the other would be hard pressed not to call SOMETHING.....never seen a MAC official who would pass up a chance to stop play.....


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/13/2014 9:02:22 PM 
Well, I actually saw something close to this in a MAC game that -- correctly -- wasn't called.  I can't remember whether this was us or the other team, but a player gets a defensive rebound.  He throws the ball to a teammate who is running down the court but not expecting the pass.  The ball hits him in the back near the shoulder blade and with its spin climbs up his back close to the neck, then the ball just sits there and bounces a time or two off his shoulder as he continues to run.  He then reaches back swats the ball from the hand that is behind his head to his other hand that is in front.  The ball rolls off the front hand and bounces several times.  By the time he retrieves it he's in position for a layup. All legal . . . but really strange.  


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"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/13/2014 9:07:28 PM 
I've been a licensed official in the past. I agree with the guy about idiots in the crowd yelling for violations, especially over the back. No such thing. I really let an official have it in an AAU tourney last year when he called over the back on a kid that is simply taller than everyone else. After the game, I suggested he show me in the rule book where over the back is addressed. Two hours later, I asked him if he had found it. He laughed and asked me what the rule was before the next game started.

Three seconds is pretty basic most of the time. It gets tricky if the guy in the lane has the ball and is making a basketball move. Otherwise, it needs to be enforced.

And WV had only one area code, 304, until last year when they added another overlay. The guy writing the article is an attorney from Wheeling and a fixture in the OVAC, which I believe is the largest high school athletic conference in the he nation. I am pretty sure he officiated a few games I played in during high school 20+ years ago.


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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/13/2014 9:10:41 PM 
I resisted commenting that you probably knew him 695... I would have put money on it...


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/13/2014 11:49:06 PM 

 Well, if the games were (consistently) called the way Artimez describes, then why do we see so many "touch" fouls, "incidental" contact foul calls?

"Contact which does not put a player at a disadvantage is generally ignored, and borderline violations which do not result in an unfair advantage are rarely called."

Bull. We see it ALL the time. And inconsistently through the game (majority of games anyway).


RS Bobcat

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/14/2014 1:35:15 AM 
Somewhat on this topic, Chris Paul of the Clippers made a terrifically heady play last night.

Paul was in a jump ball with one of Portland's big bigs by the Portland hoop.  All Clipper defenders were toward the rim.  Portland's big tapped ball toward center court where the three closest lined-up players were TrailBlazers.  Chris Paul ignored the tip, darted out toward center court and caught to ball on a bounce off the floor.  Just a brilliant, thinking play...which was disallowed, apparently because Paul was not allowed to touch the ball until a player not involved in the jump touched it.  (I may have the facts and rule slightly off.  But it showed high hoop IQ for sure.)


I know many here are not in love with pro hoop.  But check out Blake Griffin of the Clippers.  Dude has gone quantum and a serious case can be made that he's the best player in the league...I think his ppg over the last four months is something like 21.6, 22.4, 26.1 and 33.  He didn't even take jump shots until about a month ago.  Now, he's money out to near 20 feet.  If he gets it in the post or in that one-dribble out spot about 14 foot from the hoop, it's a bucket or a foul almost for sure.  I used to think he was a fairly good player but not particularly special.  He's special, and not because of all the dunking.

 


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WHERE"S THE BAND?!


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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/14/2014 8:08:37 AM 
Not to get too sidetracked here, but I had a rules question after watching the Miami game.  As I understand it, in the NBA a player has a limit of 10 seconds to get a free throw off after being given the ball by the ref.  Is that rule also in place in NCAA hoops?  I was counting in my head when Will Felder would go to the stripe, and I was consistently getting a 12-13 second count.  He takes a lot of time at the line.
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bobcat695
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/14/2014 8:26:15 AM 
The rule is 10 seconds, but rarely enforced. I've only seen a violation called one time in my life. A player was purposely stalling so the coach could continue giving instruction to his team before the shot attempt. It was pretty funny when it was finally called.


"You can't un-fist a fist pump." - Saul Phillips 1/24/15

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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/14/2014 10:59:34 AM 
bobcat695 wrote:
I agree with the guy about idiots in the crowd yelling for violations, especially over the back. No such thing.


It may not be called "over-the-back" in the rule book but there is a very common foul that gets rightly called when a player goes over or through the player boxing him out. You can out-jump the guy in front of you to get the ball but you can't jump on him which is what 99% of the people mean when they are yelling "over-the-back".
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/14/2014 11:16:23 AM 
I remember my HS coach always getting upset with refs on over-the-back calls. We were blessed to have three kids over 6'6" in our starting lineup in a historically small league where the tallest player was normally 6'2" or shorter. We would always get called for over the back, even though our guy was just simply taller than the other guy and reached up to grab the ball. It punishes the player for being tall. Simple as that.
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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/14/2014 11:56:57 AM 
I hate when fans start yelling for 3-second violations when a player misses a couple of times near the rim and the ball is loose and things like that. They have no clue that the 3 seconds restarts after each rebound.
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: A legal opinion on the most misunderstood rules in Hoops
   Posted: 2/14/2014 1:01:29 PM 
The over the back thing has always driven me crazy. WHen Muncie Central saw Greg Oden in 2 consecutive State Finals fans kept yelling "over the back". Tommy was our TALLEST guy, Oden was reaching over without contact. Perfectly legal....but trying to explain that to those folk is nigh on impossible.  Bearcats had no answer for that one. Oden used his arms to gain leverage and delivered some pretty strong blows that hurt like hell and were never called....but he could pluck a rebound off the top and never touch a soul.



The 3 seconds drives me crazy ....not when the shot is up but when there is a guard out front weaving around and the post player establishes himself deep in the key....all 3 refs are focused on their areas but no one is taking care of the key. When the entry pass comes or the rebound comes off the player has been camped out in there for a long time. Puts the defensive big at such a disadvantage because there was no count. A guy like NDour who is getting beasted often is doing so against a bigger guy because the offense in the middle has had time to establish himself deep. That call and the fact taht you have to remind refs (which you can do from MOnroe's Bobcat Black seats) out front that 5 seconds starts not 6 seconds in but when the guy received the ball. I get the fact thtat the count restarts with changes but if you are not counting at the outset the 5 sec (and 3 second) rule is not a factor. in the case of 3 seconds the history goes back to George Mikan and his ability ot camp out in front of the rim and receive the ball deep in the lane. So the intent should carry forward and those guys who are camping out in there should not gain the advantage.

As for the free throws....in college most pretty good refs you will see standing at FT line extended once the player gets the ball  counting the 10 secs with their arm just like they do on the in bounds baseline.


Last Edited: 2/14/2014 1:03:22 PM by bornacatfan


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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