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Topic: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Topic: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

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cbus cat fan
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It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 10:24:03 AM

Because we become the launch pad for coaches headed to the supposedly "Power" conferences, we often don't get the luxury of seeing a coach hit his stride. However, it is worth noting that Coach Danny Nee and Coach Larry Hunter had their best years in their 5-6 years, while Coach John Groce had his best year in his final year (his fourth year.)

Coach Nee exited after his sixth year, and it is worth noting he later viewed it as a mistake reflecting that a coach could win a national championship at a non- "Power Conference" school. Unfortunately, it can also become quickly apparent when a coach doesn't have the right temperament to lead a college program as in Coach Billy Hahn. I remember him always being friendly and chatting with anyone and everyone after Mass at Christ the King on Sunday morning, Sadly during the contest itself, he often became so emotional he lost track of the game and certainly any strategic changes necessary to win. He had two future NBA players on his team and still managed to finish at or near the MAC cellar.

In summary coaches need time, but if they aren't cut out to be a head coach everyone usually knows fairly soon, which is why most AD's, even in MAC programs like to hire guys with some head coaching experience.

Diamond Cat
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 11:39:55 AM

This is the exact reason I get so PO'd when a coach leaves. I get it - big pay check. That said, when a guy leaves, be it Groce or that rodeo clown Jim Christian, I don't give them a second look. I wish them well in their future endeavors (as we prefer to say).

Groce will make millions until he gets canned. So, in the end, he gets paid. Good for him. Meanwhile, we all know what is in store for our boys - years of rebuilding and season's like this year and last.

That's life in the Mid American Conference (in Athens)!

ytownbobcat
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 11:58:12 AM

Are expectations being reset to match actual performance?

Serious accountability starts in year three for our staff. We will have spent 2 million plus in staff salary in
three years. They got to show results.

6 years? In the MAC? Seriously?

cbus cat fan
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 12:07:02 PM

Maybe Danny Nee could get on ESPN, Fox Sports, CBS Sports, talk radio etc and talk more about his "Road to Damascus" experience that you don't need to be at a big time program to make a big time tournament run or perhaps even a Final Four appearance, i.e. Butler and Wichita State. Too many coaches have bought into the theory that you can only make it there by coaching at few select schools. The new face of college basketball (with so many talented players going to the NBA early) should help smaller schools with fairly talented squads staying put for four years realize their dreams. However, they need a coach who has the same vision.

Last Edited: 1/17/2016 12:08:21 PM by cbus cat fan

bobcat28
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 12:28:57 PM

The staff needs to step up recruiting. Aside from 2 transfers, who wanted to come here anyway, and 1 other freshman this year, I dont see any bigtime impact players in 3 years of recruiting (including next year).

BobcatSports
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 12:49:28 PM

I give Saul's 1st year recruiting a total pas. He was hired so late the cupboard was picked bare. Couple that with Taylor bolting which was an enormous loss imo and the fact that Christian's departure left more holes in the program than Swiss cheese.

Not making excuses for Saul just trying to be a realist. I know Saul is high on getting recruits to Athens but truth be told Athens is a tough place to sell recruits too. Got to give the guy a chance to build/rebuild this thing.

Mike Johnson
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 2:28:27 PM

cbus cat fan wrote:

Nee reached the first of his four consecutive 20+ win seasons in his 3rd season.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

bornacatfan
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 2:42:35 PM

BobcatSports wrote:

ytownbobcat wrote:

As Mike said above nee in his 4th year....but college hoops has changed a bit since then also. I think 4th year is about accurate as his kids are becoming upperclassmen. Not sure about year 3 given how late this thing got off the ground and the departure of the frosh Groce brought in en masse his first year. Replacing keely, DJ, Baltic was a chore even the original architect would have a time with (though Levert, bradds et al was a good start)but as the 2nd coach down the line Saul got stuck with a decimated cupboard...so a little extra time ...year 4 may be a better timeline. No one "Got" to do anything. Ohio is and could be a basketball giant. I hope it is...I hope Saul makes it one. It is going to take some time, support and patience. I was accused of being a loser last night as I said something about patience and the process. I assumed the fellow saying that had never met me, that's just not my nature ....but I am not going on some kind of Convo pretzel rant over a team of frosh and new blood with one senior losing a game.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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The Optimist
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 3:02:22 PM

Saul has remarked on it a couple times in pressers, but our team right now has a real offensive slant to it. Sure, we need to work team defense overall, but the guys we have are just overall more offensive geared players.

I wonder what this team might looked like with Ryan Taylor on it. I think he was regarded as one of our best (if not the best) wing defender on our team last year. Even Laster seemed good in that department and he hasn't really seen much time this year...

Offensively, I think we are there. Basically. We are scoring. Defense. Nope. Player development is crucial since we have ONE recruit coming in next year.

I've seen crazier things happen.

BobcatSports
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 3:11:30 PM

Tom: Didn't Groce's first class also include Kinney and Horne? Horne was rated a 3star if memory serves me correctly. Although Horne didn't stick around long and Kinney departed later as well - long term Kinney showed he could ball. I honestly lost all track of what Horne did or didn't do after he left Athens.

Point being Groce's first haul was the mother lode. Hard for anyone to duplicate that - but you have to give Saul some space to put the blocks back under the foundation.

cbus cat fan
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 3:41:49 PM

Coach Nee had a 20 win season before his 4-6 years, but he did not hit his stride until his 5th and 6th years. Snoopy Graham and Dave Jamerson (both future NBA players) were the kind of recruits that Ohio could only have dreamed of a couple of years prior. If Coach Nee had stayed, one can only imagine the pipeline of talent that would have been coming to Athens.

Coach Groce also had a 20 win season before his fourth and final year, but he did not hit his stride until his final year. There is something to be said when a coach hits his stride and exudes the kind of confidence that makes recruits want to come to places like Athens which they might have never considered in years past.

bornacatfan
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 4:01:26 PM

BobcatSports wrote:

Absolutely, I left horne and Kinnney out because they did not finish and did not need replaced as they filled in with Kellogg, Taylor and other that did follow. AB was coming on board. Horne was bothered when he found out he had to get in shape. JG ran the snot out of those guys in the summer with the ROTC conditioning. Marq had asthma that week while KVK was shedding pounds in order to stay on Groce's team. Kinney had other problems from way back in HS that bit him. I always told P's asking "if your kid has problems with drugs, alcohol, time management or P%#*y Athens is probably not a good place for him." Jay had a pretty good career out west and Marq went to Ga State IIRC

I am not worried about Saul at all (not saying all is well either as the jury is def still out). This year is going to give the frosh reason to remember and get better. I hope they get mad as hell and come to work this summer to make sure it does not happen in the future. Block is out of a great program. Lots of winners in the locker room ...maybe not as many as we had in there in the years after TOS left but plenty of gym rats who "get" the process.

Last Edited: 1/17/2016 4:04:05 PM by bornacatfan

OUVan
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 7:56:34 PM

bobcat28 wrote:

You don't think Jordan Dartis or Gavin Block are impact players? Really? Personally, I think we hit a home run with this class.

bobcatsquared
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 8:23:21 PM

cbus cat fan wrote:

If Coach Nee had stayed, one can only imagine the pipeline of talent that would have been coming to Athens.

Can't think of a coach, before or after Nee, that had the pipeline he had with Philadelphia and New York, and there's not too many cities that produce basketball recruits like those two cities. Nee and his assistants, Hahn and Frachilla, got John Devereaux and Jeff Thomas from New York and Victor Alexander and Snoopy Graham from Philly. There are other names from these two cities that escape me - perhaps cc cat, SBH or Jeff Mac can help me out.

Is it even possible/probable to get big city players to rural Athens in 2016?

Jeff McKinney
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 10:40:06 PM

Recruiting has changed so much since N�e was here, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Recruiting has become such a science that very few players slip through the hands of the high majors any more.

TWT
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 11:02:14 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

The science has changed in recruiting but with the new generation of programs in the last couple of decades (Gonzaga, Butler, Xavier, VCU, Wichita) it proved it was possible to hang with the elite outside of the traditional elite conference. Ohio's isn't getting NBA guys but since Groce has shown the ability to fully load the roster with solid D1 contributors. In the past it was a situation that whey would only sign with Ohio if being able to start was all but certain. A couple years would go by without a quality recruit at a position because an existing player was filling a role.

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TWT
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 11:25:29 PM

Diamond Cat wrote:

I can't speak for other MAC schools but if/when Saul makes the NCAA's the money to keep him in Athens I'd suspect will be there. Saul is making 4x what TOS was making 8 years ago to coach the Bobcats to start.

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perimeterpost
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/17/2016 11:37:10 PM

Summary of Saul's recruiting efforts to date-

Class of 2014
** SG Ryan Taylor, 6'6". Other offers- none.
** SG Mike Laster, 6'4". Other offers- Buffalo, Bowling Green, Fl A&M, SIU Edwardsville.

Class of 2015
** SG James Gollon, 6'5". Other offers- Army, Sioux Falls, Idaho State
** SG Gavin Block, 6'5". Other offers- Northern Illinois, SIU Edwardsville, Bradley, North Dakota, Bucknell, Darmouth, American, UMKC, South Dakota State.
*** SG Jordan Dartis, 6'2". Other offers- Kennesaw State.
*** PF Ellis Dozier, 6'9". Other offers- none.
*** PF Doug Taylor, 6'8". Other offers- Miami, Toledo, Bowling Green, Tulane, Towson, NKU.

Class of 2016
** PF Jason Carter, 6'7".(Verbal) Other offers- Kent State, Miami.
** SG Desmond Bane 6'5".(offer) Other offers- Ball St, Miami, IUPUI, Furman, South Indiana, Fla Southern, Air Force, Grand Valley State, Ferris State, Saginaw Valley State, Urbana, Hillsdale.
*** SG Rodney Culver 6'5".(offer) Other offers- Cleveland State, Delware, UNC Greensboro, Campbell, Coastal Carolina, IPFW, EKU, Hofstra.

Last Edited: 1/17/2016 11:37:40 PM by perimeterpost

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The Optimist
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/18/2016 12:05:12 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

+1

The past decade, we've come insanely close to seeing a mid-major win a national championship. I believe a mid-major will win a national championship in my lifetime. I don't think it is possible to guess which mid it'll be, but the recipe seems clear. The true "powers" have a weakness in that the players they have to go after to reload at the level they want to play at are leaving every single year. That gives mid-majors the ability to develop a team chemistry that they cannot develop in one year.

The opportunity is there for the taking. I don't know who it'll be, or when. But it CAN be done. So many have come so close already.

I've seen crazier things happen.

Monroe Slavin
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/18/2016 3:08:03 AM

1) Boldon. (Not a perfect analogy...but c'mon!)

2) Great. This thread's gonna have OCF seething at me again because of another sport and all I am is a bystander here.

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Alan Swank
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/18/2016 11:57:58 AM

bobcatsquared wrote:

cbus cat fan wrote:

If Coach Nee had stayed, one can only imagine the pipeline of talent that would have been coming to Athens.

Henry Smith, Dink Whitaker to name two and I believe George Reed. And of course out of NY, Paul Baron.

http://articles.philly.com/1994-08-12/sports/25839805_1_c...

http://articles.philly.com/1986-02-28/sports/26088639_1_w...

Last Edited: 1/18/2016 12:28:13 PM by Alan Swank

BillyTheCat
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/18/2016 12:07:46 PM

Alan Swank wrote:

bobcatsquared wrote:

cbus cat fan wrote:

If Coach Nee had stayed, one can only imagine the pipeline of talent that would have been coming to Athens.

Henry Smith, Dink Whitaker to name two and I believe George Reed.

http://articles.philly.com/1994-08-12/sports/25839805_1_c...

http://articles.philly.com/1986-02-28/sports/26088639_1_w...

You forget the SE Ohio Bomber, Rick Scarberry. 😂

bobcatsquared
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/18/2016 1:36:35 PM

Thanks, Alan. Not sure how I forgot your boy Paul Baron. Quite an impressive group of players in a few short years.

Last Edited: 1/18/2016 1:37:12 PM by bobcatsquared

BillyTheCat
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/18/2016 1:39:51 PM

bobcatsquared wrote:

Thanks, Alan. Not sure how I forgot your boy Paul Baron. Quite an impressive group of players in a few short years.

Great talents and better people.

Alan Swank
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RE: It Generally Takes Coaches 4-6 Years to Hit Their Stride

Posted: 1/18/2016 3:04:12 PM

Oh how times changed. I looked up the 90 - 91 team, Larry's second year, and 10 of the 13 players were from Ohio. Not one guy was from east of Elmwood City, PA.

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