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Sure there will be much debate, so chime in on your recollection and your opinions. Cooper vs. Simmons Simmons is solid and he can get the job done. His shooting, both from the floor and FT line are more consistent and he doesn't make as many head scratching plays (ie: hoisting up 30 foot ill-advised bombs when you least expect it). Yet still, Cooper is an all-time OHIO great and had the "It Factor." ADVANTAGE: Cooper (2012) Kellogg vs Dartis Wow, tough one as Kellogg is one of my all time OHIO favorites and Dartis is my favorite on this years team. Kellogg was smart, provided leadership and was clutch. But I think Dartis may be further along as a Soph. than Nick was at that point in his career. In 2012 Nick had begun diversifying his game and being more than just a spot up shooter. Whether Jordan will develop into the finished product Nick ended up being by their Senior years only time will tell. I could go either way on this one and I'm sure this will be debated, but... ADVANTAGE: Even Baltic vs. Kaminski Good Ivo, or bad Ivo at the end is really the question here? Kenny is by far the superior shooter, but Ivo brought driving, slashing, rebounding and the mid-range game to the table when he was right. Kenny is very one dimensional and if his shot isn't going, brings little else to the table. I'm trying not to remember only the Ivo down the stretch, or the cold shooting KK, so... ADVANTAGE: Baltic (2012) J. Smith vs. Campbell Actually had to look up the starting lineup of the UNC game to remember Keely didn't start, but instead J. Smith did. Jon Smith played way bigger than 6'7." While he had no offense, he did the little things this team needed. But at the end of the day, Campbell is the MAC Player of the Year, so... ADVANTAGE : Campbell (2016) Bench: Keely vs. Taylor Keely as I recall could guard the post well for his size, could post up well, was active around the rim and didn't try to join the other four guys at the 3 point arch. He knew his role and didn't stay from it, as didn't Jon Smith. HUGE ADVANTAGE: Keely (2012) R. Johnson vs. Culver I think Culver has much more upside than Ricardo, but when you compare Freshman Culver to a more seasoned Johnson, Ricardo was a little more polished, though he looked much like Culver (a bit out of control) as a Freshman. However at the end day and by the end of the season, they probably bring about the same assets to the table, so I'll call it... ADVANTAGE: Even TJ Hall vs. Carter Same as above, Carter will be the better player down the road but right now as a Freshman, TJ was more polished in 2012. This time next year I think I'll probably be giving the edge to Carter, but for right now... ADVANTAGE: Hall (2012) The real differentiators up to this point are DJ had the "IT Factor" and we had Keely/Smith who knew and fulfilled their roles in the paint both on offense and defense. But in my opinion, when I analyze the two rosters side-by-side, the thing that separates the two rosters is the last starting position I left for last: Offutt vs Block It could be a by-product that Walt was a R-Jr. in 2012 and Gavin's only a true Soph., but this position comparison is worlds apart. Walt not only provided toughness, leadership and experience, but he could also attack the rim while being competent from the perimeter. If I could pin-point one thing the 2012 team had that the 2016 team does not currently have, I'd say it's a Walt Offutt type slasher. Some would argue it's DJ Cooper and I can't argue that, but Simmons is very good. Walt IMO is what separates the two teams. if the 2016 can recruit or develop a Walt type, you're golden and it's the missing ingredient. HUGE ADVANTAGE: Offutt (2012) In summary, I have the 2012 team winning 5 position battles, the 2016 team winning 1 position battle and I called 2 a tie. 5-1-2 in favor of 2012. To reiterate, in many of the position battles the 2016 team has young guys (ie: Culver, Carter, Dartis, Taylor and Block) so it's not 100% comparing apples to apples. But I tried to compare the 2012 team to the 2016 team with players in their current state of development as we must play with the hand we have right now and not what we think may happen looking forward. To conclude, the 2012 team at the end of December was 12-1 with their only loss being a 5 point defeat on the road at #5 Louisville. Thoughts? Last Edited: 12/12/2016 1:19:45 AM by Chicken George Back to Top Jeff McKinney Moderator Member Since: 11/12/2004 Post Count: 6,155 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 8:09:01 AM  You should do this again in February. The 2016 team might fare better with some experience for the freshmen. I think you underrate Doug. Back to Top GoCats105 General User Member Since: 1/31/2006 Location: Seattle, WA Post Count: 7,446 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 9:02:41 AM  I don't get the TJ Hall-Jason Carter comparison at all. I love TJ and what he brought to the table, but they are completely different players. Carter plays more like Reggie Keely than he does TJ Hall. It's an apples to oranges. Really, 2016 has two Reggies in Doug and Jason and 2012 had two Rodneys in TJ and Ricardo. Back to Top Chicken George General User Member Since: 1/2/2005 Post Count: 765 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 9:41:30 AM  I agree Jeff, I found the teams comparable in many areas (outside of Offutt) and noted that the 2016 is younger in many of the positions. I also would agree/love to see Taylor be another Keely type. GoCats105, I just tried to compare the first 3 guys off the bench for both teams and tried to match them up as closely as I could. Carter, Culver & Taylor vs. Keely, Johnson and Hall. I don't feel great or 100% of my analysis, give me yours. It was kind of fun. Back to Top 100%Cat General User Member Since: 1/17/2013 Post Count: 2,630 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 10:08:00 AM  I don't think this team will go 3-5 on the road in conference play. Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,370 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 12:30:15 PM  Jeff McKinney wrote: You should do this again in February. The 2016 team might fare better with some experience for the freshmen. +1. Too early for comparison. In the other thread, I said comparing was "silly" because the styles of the two teams is so different. Related to that, the one thing I'd like to see more of from the current Ohio team is to push the tempo when the opportunity is there to do so. Back to Top GoCats105 General User Member Since: 1/31/2006 Location: Seattle, WA Post Count: 7,446 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 12:42:32 PM  Chicken George wrote: I agree Jeff, I found the teams comparable in many areas (outside of Offutt) and noted that the 2016 is younger in many of the positions. I also would agree/love to see Taylor be another Keely type. GoCats105, I just tried to compare the first 3 guys off the bench for both teams and tried to match them up as closely as I could. Carter, Culver & Taylor vs. Keely, Johnson and Hall. I don't feel great or 100% of my analysis, give me yours. It was kind of fun. I guess if we were gonna go that route we could just lay it all out on the table. Which would you rather have? Keely, Hall and Johnson Carter, Culver and Taylor I think the upside for the latter three is greater, they just haven't hit that point yet because of their youth. Keely was a seasoned vet in 2012. Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,370 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 2:32:49 PM  GoCats105 wrote: Chicken George wrote: I agree Jeff, I found the teams comparable in many areas (outside of Offutt) and noted that the 2016 is younger in many of the positions. I also would agree/love to see Taylor be another Keely type. GoCats105, I just tried to compare the first 3 guys off the bench for both teams and tried to match them up as closely as I could. Carter, Culver & Taylor vs. Keely, Johnson and Hall. I don't feel great or 100% of my analysis, give me yours. It was kind of fun. I guess if we were gonna go that route we could just lay it all out on the table. Which would you rather have? Keely, Hall and Johnson Carter, Culver and Taylor I think the upside for the latter three is greater, they just haven't hit that point yet because of their youth. Keely was a seasoned vet in 2012. Ask me again at the end of the 2018-2019 season when Doug is a senior, and the other two are juniors. Back to Top shabamon General User Member Since: 11/17/2006 Location: Cincinnati Post Count: 6,863 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 8:21:01 PM  I think better comparisons would pit Laster/Culver vs. Johnson/Hall. Bench wings vs. bench wings. I think sophomore Ric and freshman Rodney are pretty similar. Hall was able to give more as a sophomore than Laster is doing as a freshman. Mike seems to prefer getting inside and muscling up shots in traffic. He would be far more successful if he had TJ's build. How about comparing Carter and Goard? I think Carter wins this in a landslide. Goard eventually turned into a serviceable player at Marshall, but Carter has a good build already and is able to score 15 on a good night. I never felt Goard was a threat to score more than 10. Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 10:12:52 PM  Chicken George wrote: Baltic vs. Kaminski Good Ivo, or bad Ivo at the end is really the question here? Kenny is by far the superior shooter, but Ivo brought driving, slashing, rebounding and the mid-range game to the table when he was right. Kenny is very one dimensional and if his shot isn't going, brings little else to the table. I'm trying not to remember only the Ivo down the stretch, or the cold shooting KK, so... ADVANTAGE: Baltic (2012) From February of 2012 until his last game Ivo had stopped driving entirely. Over the last 47 games of his Ohio career he went to the line an astoundingly low total of 15 times. He went to the line 120 times in his sophomore year alone. He was a much better rebounder than Kenny and was more committed to defense but on the offensive end he turned into a one trick pony and that one trick wasn't nearly as good as Kenny's. It's a darn shame about Kenny's shoulder because we have seen glimpses of what an incredible weapon he could have been. Just have to keep out fingers crossed. Back to Top allen General User Member Since: 1/24/2006 Post Count: 4,637 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 10:45:34 PM  OUVan wrote: Chicken George wrote: Baltic vs. Kaminski Good Ivo, or bad Ivo at the end is really the question here? Kenny is by far the superior shooter, but Ivo brought driving, slashing, rebounding and the mid-range game to the table when he was right. Kenny is very one dimensional and if his shot isn't going, brings little else to the table. I'm trying not to remember only the Ivo down the stretch, or the cold shooting KK, so... ADVANTAGE: Baltic (2012) From February of 2012 until his last game Ivo had stopped driving entirely. Over the last 47 games of his Ohio career he went to the line an astoundingly low total of 15 times. He went to the line 120 times in his sophomore year alone. He was a much better rebounder than Kenny and was more committed to defense but on the offensive end he turned into a one trick pony and that one trick wasn't nearly as good as Kenny's. It's a darn shame about Kenny's shoulder because we have seen glimpses of what an incredible weapon he could have been. Just have to keep out fingers crossed. I am taking KK over Ivo every day and twice on Sunday. Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes Back to Top RSBobcat General User Member Since: 8/22/2010 Location: Columbus, OH Post Count: 4,437 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/12/2016 11:16:29 PM  WAY too much to read here...so I am not going into the comparison rabbit hole.. We need to hit a bunch 'O 3's. And.. We need to perform better in the paint - Points and RB's. That Opens Up more 3 Opps (not the desperate quick launch type - but the deliberate good ball movement create type - which BTW opens up some "slash opps"). Paint = Tone. Tone Taking fouls on D and not Getting fouls on O - If not then we're inna heap 'o trouble in the MAC. Period. Well - Carter and some inside footwork (which he looks to have) could also pay off there.. I would be very happy to not see another Culver or Taylor take a "J" the rest of the season. Take that Sh.. to the hoop...and draw contact while doing it. Footnote: And ability to "adjust game plan" during play - vs any given opponent. We have the parts to do that. Onna run - RUN! Need to adjust - ADJUST! The QB largely determines that in game direction/adjustment (Simmons) RS Bobcat Back to Top GoCats105 General User Member Since: 1/31/2006 Location: Seattle, WA Post Count: 7,446 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/13/2016 7:21:29 AM  OUVan wrote: Chicken George wrote: Baltic vs. Kaminski Good Ivo, or bad Ivo at the end is really the question here? Kenny is by far the superior shooter, but Ivo brought driving, slashing, rebounding and the mid-range game to the table when he was right. Kenny is very one dimensional and if his shot isn't going, brings little else to the table. I'm trying not to remember only the Ivo down the stretch, or the cold shooting KK, so... ADVANTAGE: Baltic (2012) From February of 2012 until his last game Ivo had stopped driving entirely. Over the last 47 games of his Ohio career he went to the line an astoundingly low total of 15 times. He went to the line 120 times in his sophomore year alone. He was a much better rebounder than Kenny and was more committed to defense but on the offensive end he turned into a one trick pony and that one trick wasn't nearly as good as Kenny's. It's a darn shame about Kenny's shoulder because we have seen glimpses of what an incredible weapon he could have been. Just have to keep out fingers crossed. FIFTEEN? That is an amazing stat. Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/13/2016 9:47:35 AM  Jeff McKinney wrote: You should do this again in February. The 2016 team might fare better with some experience for the freshmen. I think you underrate Doug. 100% agree. We have an 8 man rotation and two of those players have 7 games of experience in an Ohio uniform and 5 have one year plus 7 games experience. Only Tony has played more than 40 games for Ohio. Every year is a growing experience and each year is different. The Marshall and Iona games are part of the growth process. Go back and look at your favorite Ohio season and you'll find losses similar or worse than either of our losses so far. How well we do will be determined by how well we learn and adapt and that includes Saul. Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,370 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/13/2016 10:35:37 AM  GoCats105 wrote: OUVan wrote: Chicken George wrote: Baltic vs. Kaminski Good Ivo, or bad Ivo at the end is really the question here? Kenny is by far the superior shooter, but Ivo brought driving, slashing, rebounding and the mid-range game to the table when he was right. Kenny is very one dimensional and if his shot isn't going, brings little else to the table. I'm trying not to remember only the Ivo down the stretch, or the cold shooting KK, so... ADVANTAGE: Baltic (2012) From February of 2012 until his last game Ivo had stopped driving entirely. Over the last 47 games of his Ohio career he went to the line an astoundingly low total of 15 times. He went to the line 120 times in his sophomore year alone. He was a much better rebounder than Kenny and was more committed to defense but on the offensive end he turned into a one trick pony and that one trick wasn't nearly as good as Kenny's. It's a darn shame about Kenny's shoulder because we have seen glimpses of what an incredible weapon he could have been. Just have to keep out fingers crossed. FIFTEEN? That is an amazing stat. Adding to that stat, Ivo was an outstanding free throw maker. The Soph year I think he was in the 80% area. That change in his game was a sports psychology case study. He had All-MAC talent, in my opinion, and was effectively a good, not great player in the end. I always liked him and thought he was a good guy too. Back to Top BobcatSports General User Member Since: 2/2/2006 Post Count: 1,094 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/13/2016 11:35:33 AM  Somewhat off topic but when mentioning guys like Keely-Ivo-DJ brings back memories of that entire Groce recruiting class. It also included Kinney, whom showed flashes of brilliance but found "Fresher" pastures elsewhere and also included Horne. Horne, along with DJ, were pegged to be MAC newcomers of the year at their respective positions, which DJ more than proved over his career here. Horne, in the very,very brief cameo which he stayed for, looked to me to be ahead of both Keely/Ivo in terms of early development. For whatever reason he choose to head back home and pursued other interests before he ever gave himself a chance. My point in this epistle is that that Groce class had some unbelievable talent and any coach going forward will be hard-pressed to bring in that level of talent in such numbers. Back to Top Andrew Ruck General User Member Since: 12/22/2004 Location: Columbus, OH Post Count: 5,220 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/13/2016 3:43:33 PM  GoCats105 wrote: OUVan wrote: From February of 2012 until his last game Ivo had stopped driving entirely. Over the last 47 games of his Ohio career he went to the line an astoundingly low total of 15 times. He went to the line 120 times in his sophomore year alone. FIFTEEN? That is an amazing stat. I shared this years ago when it was happening but I strongly believe that Ivo's sudden shift away from driving was due to anxiety of the free throw line just like Jon Lester throwing the ball to first base. It's an outrageous and perhaps slightly offensive claim but I feel strongly about it if you follow the progression: 2/4/12 - He air balled a free throw against Central Michigan late in the game. 2/8/12 - The very next game he missed BADLY on 2 free throw attempts just a couple minutes into the game. Rest of 2012 season - Went to the line just once in the final 13 games of the season, making 1 of 2. 2013 season - Made 5 of 13 attempts the entire season. Pro career - Despite having a strong skillset that could have played very well in Europe, Ivo's pro career was just 13 games in Croatia, in which he went 1 for 3 from the line and that was the end of it. This means he was 7 for his final 19 attempts in his playing career. He was 163 for 257 in his first 2.5 seasons. Jim Christian explicitly said his play was "not by design" but he never took him out of the rotation. It is honestly one of the more fascinating stories I have ever seen play out in sports. Andrew Ruck B.B.A. 2003 Back to Top GoCats105 General User Member Since: 1/31/2006 Location: Seattle, WA Post Count: 7,446 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/13/2016 4:16:11 PM  Andrew Ruck wrote: GoCats105 wrote: OUVan wrote: From February of 2012 until his last game Ivo had stopped driving entirely. Over the last 47 games of his Ohio career he went to the line an astoundingly low total of 15 times. He went to the line 120 times in his sophomore year alone. FIFTEEN? That is an amazing stat. I shared this years ago when it was happening but I strongly believe that Ivo's sudden shift away from driving was due to anxiety of the free throw line just like Jon Lester throwing the ball to first base. It's an outrageous and perhaps slightly offensive claim but I feel strongly about it if you follow the progression: 2/4/12 - He air balled a free throw against Central Michigan late in the game. 2/8/12 - The very next game he missed BADLY on 2 free throw attempts just a couple minutes into the game. Rest of 2012 season - Went to the line just once in the final 13 games of the season, making 1 of 2. 2013 season - Made 5 of 13 attempts the entire season. Pro career - Despite having a strong skillset that could have played very well in Europe, Ivo's pro career was just 13 games in Croatia, in which he went 1 for 3 from the line and that was the end of it. This means he was 7 for his final 19 attempts in his playing career. He was 163 for 257 in his first 2.5 seasons. Jim Christian explicitly said his play was "not by design" but he never took him out of the rotation. It is honestly one of the more fascinating stories I have ever seen play out in sports. I took a Sports Psychology class while at OU. It was a fun class and one of these case studies would be awesome to dive into. Back to Top bornacatfan General User Member Since: 8/3/2006 Post Count: 5,716 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/13/2016 8:02:02 PM  I remember that ANdrew. Pretty good take. I had not extended it to his pro career though I have pondered the brevity much....kid with a dual passport and decent skills was set to make a ton of Money. Teams over there lust after players that do not count against their 3 from the US limits. That is really intriguing.... never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer..... The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game Back to Top perimeterpost General User Member Since: 7/6/2010 Post Count: 3,165 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/13/2016 9:02:35 PM  Ryan Taylor was this team's Walt Offutt. MY STATE. MY TEAM. Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,370 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/14/2016 12:55:07 PM  perimeterpost wrote: Ryan Taylor was this team's Walt Offutt. I'm not sure about that. And I mean that literally. Walt was an excellent leader, and good offensive players. He could also defend multiple positions pretty well. Taylor showed flashes of being maybe a better offensive player than Walt, but we never got to see the rest of his game develop to know what he might have become. Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Comparing the 2012 Roster vs 2016    Posted: 12/15/2016 7:21:02 AM  GoCats105 wrote: I took a Sports Psychology class while at OU. It was a fun class and one of these case studies would be awesome to dive into. You could throw in Tyler Tettleton and make an entire class on just those two. Back to Top Showing Replies:   1 - 22  of 22 Posts Jump to Page:   1 View Other 'Ohio Basketball' Topics                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               WHO'S ONLINE There are 329 Active Visitors on BobcatAttack.com 329 Guests 0 Registered Users There are no other users looking at this page.

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