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Topic: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Topic: What it takes to get an at-large bid

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oubobcatjohn
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What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/12/2017 11:39:20 PM

Schedule top 50 teams up and down the non-conference schedule and beat some of them. Then win the regular season title and reach conference title game. Clearly we are not playing the kind of non-conference schedules that earn a look from the selection committee. There are some mid majors that do this. Yes they lose a few games but those teams are tough and tested come March. We can't be afraid to play at West Virginia, Cincinnati, Ohio State, Xavier and Dayton. These are games that also would be TV games that open the eyes of recruits. Load up on Big Ten teams and if they pay us money to play them the more the better. These Athletic directors need to stand behind a coach that plays a Charlie Coles type non-conference schedule. Judge a coach by his conference record and record in march. let them swing for the fences in November and December get the school big TV games and exposure to recruits. Since we are a one bid league we might as well take our best shots.

RSBobcat
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/12/2017 11:45:38 PM

I agree for the most part - don't need to over do it - but more than we have

RS Bobcat

allen
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/12/2017 11:52:49 PM

We can't build a moral victory off of this. Akron was ranked 54th in the RPI before losing to Kent, had they not stumbled after losing to us, they could have got an at large. We do need to schedule better and we can't afford to lose on the road to 200+ RPI teams and claim that those teams are good, the selection committee does not believe the moral victories.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 12:22:54 AM

The problem is you need to have a perfect storm to getting that at-large scenario for mid-major programs and goes something like this:

1. You have to be coming off of a decent season: I'm not saying winning 27 games, but something like winning 20 at most and going out of the post-season early. If you win too many the year before, you will attract too much attention and ultimately schools will not want to schedule you due to a potential loss. Happens all the time with mid-majors coming off a deep NCAA run.
2. Return a lot of guys: something like last year's team heading into this season would be a good example of that. Having a lot of returners combined with a non-noticeable amount of wins makes this a lethal dosage.
3. Having a power 5 mix on the road or tournament setting of teams that are on the verge tourney teams: Monmouth last season had that right mix of teams with USC, Georgetown, and others where those teams were going to win 20+ games and make them look good. Going to pre-season tourney games set up teams for the most opportunities to get these precious RPI boosting W's.
***Note: When in these preseason tourneys, DO NOT LOSE IN THEM! NO LOSSES PERIOD.
4. Schedule mid-major teams that won't hurt the RPI: buy games are good to fill the schedule, but you can't pull an Indiana and have half the SWAC and MEAC as your home schedule. That's how you ask to be left at home and going to the NIT yet again. For us to get teams like WKU and Cleveland State are normally good mid-majors are RPI enhancers historically. Sure some years they are going to be terrible, but Vegas odds say scheduling historically good mid-major programs never hurts. Plus finding similar teams that could win their leagues becomes huge to schedule. Jamie Dixon is someone who knows how to play this game and is someone that can game an RPI like a genius.
5. Only lose 1-2 games in league play: These losses can't be in our case against a Bowling Green or Fiami. You have to lose to Akron or Kent and that's it. Any losses to the bottom, win the conference tourney or bust.
6. Get to the conference finals: You cannot screw around with less than finals appearances. Multiple mid-majors have proven this time and time again that you cannot get to the NCAAs without AT MINIMUM get to the conference finals.
BONUS Conference members pull upsets during the season: This rarely happens unlike football some years, but nonetheless this needs to happen to help bolster the conference RPI Ratings.

Feel free to dispute the math, but this is how a mid-major gets in and does it not leave it in the hands of the committee. Because we all know how much they love those mid-major programs!

allen
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 12:30:29 AM

The MVC got four teams before. We as a conference did not perform well outside of our conference. We have talent, we have to win big games, period.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

TWT
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 12:55:19 AM

At-large has a lot more to do with the level of athletes on your team. A legit power conference lineup would roll through the schedule and have an all-american candidate. The AAC has a few programs with the pedigree to attract the players. The A10 absorbs power conference overflow along the East Coast. The answer might be to hold back 1 scholarship every year for a high major transfer with hope of the NCAA's as a super loaded team.

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TWT
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 1:18:34 AM

oubobcatjohn wrote:

Schedule top 50 teams up and down the non-conference schedule and beat some of them. Then win the regular season title and reach conference title game.

The old Temple scheduling strategy. We can't get the players to make it viable. Temple was able to make it work out recruiting Villanova, St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall when those programs were buried behind Syracuse, UConn and Notre Dame in the old Big East. That isn't the situation any longer for Temple. This year it was New Hampshire, Manhattan, Penn, Yale and NJIT on the schedule.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
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2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
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TWT
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 1:21:30 AM

allen wrote:

The MVC got four teams before. We as a conference did not perform well outside of our conference. We have talent, we have to win big games, period.

We don't have the talent.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
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2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

allen
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 1:39:33 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

allen wrote:

The MVC got four teams before. We as a conference did not perform well outside of our conference. We have talent, we have to win big games, period.

We don't have the talent.

I agree, but we can get the talent. we are one or two players away. We as a conference need to schedule better and win close games. Our top teams alway lose to horrible teams, like us losing to Western Kentucky. The MVC did not have better talent, they just took care of business. We have to do the same.

Last Edited: 3/13/2017 2:18:40 AM by allen

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

100%Cat
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 7:46:36 AM

Not play in the MAC.

I mean, come on, someone had to say the obvious.

Urban Bobcat
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 8:40:51 AM

100%Cat wrote:

Not play in the MAC.

I mean, come on, someone had to say the obvious.

+1

The MAC is a well respected one bid conference.

URBAN BOBCAT

Pataskala
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 10:41:03 AM

For non-"Power" conferences, there really isn't something that's going to guarantee or even improve your chances an at-large bid. Several non-"P" teams in the past few years heard the call from the committee to improve their OOC schedule, came away with impressive wins and a very good record, and still wound up on the outside looking in. The committee has gotten more subjective in the past few years by taking into account whether a "P" team played games without its star player or even its coach. Let's face it. If you're not in a "P" conference, they'll find a way to screw you.

We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

Ohio69
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 11:11:03 AM

American: SMU, Cincinnati
Atlantic 10: Dayton, VCU, Rhode Island
West Coast: Gonzaga, St. Marys.

Those are the only non P-5+BigEast conferences that got 2+ bids.

Most of those listed play and beat P5+BigEast teams. St. Mary's seems to be making it solely on reputation. Don't really see any big wins for them. I assume Rhode Island made it only because they won their tourney. But they played and beat P5+BigEast as well.

If Ohio or any MAC school wants to be in the discussion, it has to schedule better. Even if they are all on the road. I don't think it will happen. Just not in the MAC DNA anymore.

Last Edited: 3/13/2017 11:12:04 AM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

Pataskala
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 11:36:09 AM

From a USAT story on the top snubs of this year:

"The NCAA selection committee made it clear Illinois State's profile was fully examined. But ultimately it lacked what the committee needed much more of: Top 50 Ratings Percentage Index wins. The Redbirds had just one top-50 win, against the Shockers, to go with two r�sum�-staining losses to Tulsa and Murray State. Illinois State likely paid the cost of the committee veering away from placing a high value on a team's overall RPI. Last season, for instance, Syracuse squeaked into the field with a worst-ever 72 RPI. The Redbirds' Selection Sunday RPI of 33 is one of the 10 best RPIs to be snubbed from the NCAAs."

And Coach Dan Muller's comment regarding scheduling:

Muller, frustrated with the criticism that his team did not schedule hard enough as a mid-major, added: "We ask dozens of schools to play us every year and they won't. Don't talk to me about scheduling."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/03/12/nca... /

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We will get by.
We will get by.
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bornacatfan
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 12:44:20 PM

Pataskala wrote:

Muller, frustrated with the criticism that his team did not schedule hard enough as a mid-major, added: "We ask dozens of schools to play us every year and they won't. Don't talk to me about scheduling."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2017/03/12/nca... /

And there lies the rub

If you are decent they do not want to schedule you

Know quantity is that HOme teams win more NCAA games

P5 schools want you at home and have no reason to leave.

NCAA does not MAKE them go out and play on the road.

These facts leave the non P5 and "MID" majors caught between a rock and a hard spot. Low majors use P5 buy games to fund their programs and don't care. Up and coming Mids are shunned as they are a potential loss....even at home. Bilas talked about this 2 years ago but seems like he has given up. We beat or scared some teams on the road....making us someone to avoid. In essence, the rich get richer and there is the scheduling conundrum that keeps us a MID while the P5 schools get the benefit of residual shares from each round and each appearance. Even when you talk to young athletes they are better to take a P5 ride as opposed to days goin by when they could be a difference maker at a MID. Bryant McIntosh at Northwestern.....we talked long and hard about taking a high MID offer vs a low HIGH major. Happy it has worked out with the coaching change and everything but he had to make that MID vs P5 choice

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

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Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 12:50:54 PM

Pataskala wrote:

Hence what I said above, you cannot be coming off a 25+ win campaign. You gotta come off of something way under the radar like a 19-20 win season.......

Bobcat1996
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 3:23:20 PM

If Illinois State who tied Wichita State with a 17-1 MVC record and was 27-6 didn't get to the big dance, then I am not sure what the Bobcats can do schedule wise to get an at-large bid. Ill. State lost twice to the Shockers and also to Murray, Tulsa and TCU. Ohio scheduled Bryant, Urbana, CSU, Tenn. Tech, and Southern, all wins. Replace those with the likes of Dayton, Xavier, VCU, Winthrop and Butler and what would happen? More than likely some of those games would be on the road and losses. I have no problem playing Xavier and Dayton and the Bearcats, but it won't be in the Convo. Go on the road and beat them. Nothing to lose since the season boils down to the MAC tourney anyway. Not sure the MAC will be in line for two bids unless the NCAA includes more teams.

giacomo
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 3:37:51 PM

I've said it a million times. We need to schedule better and play on the road if we have to. What is there to lose?

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 3:54:51 PM

Our schedule next year sets up nicely to begin filling in that equation. With the Charleston Classic, it is going to come down who we get matched up with there, but that is something that absolutely helps the equation into a mid-major's favor. With return games from WKU, Iona, and potentially Marshall, that's step 2. The one thing we need then are a couple chaser games like Georgia Tech again or something like that.

GraffZ06
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/13/2017 7:44:51 PM

It's as simple as this - perception is reality.

The perception is, major schools from P5 conferences are consistently good teams with consistently good players and coaches. Therefore, even in years where their records don't look great - you can still make the case about strength of schedule. And - sometimes that's true. It's hard to tell quantitatively just how well a 500 Big Ten school would do if it played 18 MAC/A10/Colonial/MVC games instead or similarly how well a 16-2 mid-major from one of those conferences would have done had they played 18 games in the ACC instead.

Similarly, the perception is that mid-majors and low-majors are NOT consistently good teams with consistently good players and coaches.

The only way to change that perception, is to PROVE IT. You have to EARN the change of perspective.

How? Well you start by playing the P5 guys. Some might tell you no - but ask anyway. You don't need to schedule 20 of them. But you can't schedule 0-1 either. Keep asking until you get "some". You have to be willing to go on the road or a neutral court to play them (because they aren't coming to you - deal with it. It's the reward for having the perception of being a power school.) Play in as many neutral-site tournaments as you are allowed by rule. We're talking multiple per year. Why? Because it gives you the chance to schedule another 2-4 P5 teams (depending on the tournament and format) where you don't have to get them to agree to play you and BONUS it will be on a neutral floor instead of their home floor. Literally the best possible scenario.

Now your schedule should contain something like 2-5 P5 games you schedule on the road and 2-5 P5 games on a neutral site, so we're talking 4-8 (10 is probably a bit much) games against "quality" P5 opponents. Every year.

Next step - you have to beat some of them! That means you better have the athletes and depth and talent to stand a fighting chance (But then if you don't - then why are crying about at-large bids and national perception anyway? Clean up your house first) I honestly don't think we're at a spot where we have a team that can do this yet (see my posts regarding #SaulBall and his recruiting philosophy). But you can't just beat 1 or 2. You need to win at LEAST 3 of these "quality" games. Another reason why you need to schedule more than 3-4 of these games because then you have 0 margin for error. You're probably not going to run the table (these are good teams too). But, if you go 4-2 in your 6 "Top 50 RPI games against P5 schools" then you're going to FORCE the committee and public to take notice - that's the beginning of forcing them to change their perception of your team, because now they have a lot more data points for comparing you against that 500 P5 school.

Next step, get 3+ "quality" wins against P5 schools for successive years in a row. Otherwise you run the risk of being a fluke or a one-hit wonder. Those teams get warm spots in hearts of the public, but they don't change their perception of the school. But - do it 2/3/4 years in a row? That's Gonzaga-esque.

Next step - don't squander all your hard work during the conference season. Look, we all know the MAC/A10/MVC etc. can be tough - so you can't expect to go undefeated every year. But, what you can't do is go 4-2 against P5 schools in your OOC and then go 11-7 in conference. You better be 13-5,14-4 or better. Take care of your business.

Final step - make it to your conference tourney finals. Fair or not, teams get judged based on "what have you done for me lately". When you don't have the perception of being a power school - even if you had a successful OOC AND in-conference - you can't appear to have slipped in March.

Accomplish all of the above, and you'll start seeing at-large bid consideration.

Now - want to fully change the perception of the public so you can be in the at-large consideration camp more permanently? Then win a few NCAA tournament games here and there when you're finally given the shot.

Sounds easy right? Not really. In fact it's incredibly hard. But - you have to have the journey/blueprint charted out in front of you to even attempt it. The question is, do we currently (as a school or a conference)?

Last Edited: 3/13/2017 7:51:05 PM by GraffZ06

bobcat 2000
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/14/2017 4:06:49 PM

you are right ou should leave the mac best conferences for ou would be big ten American big east or conference usa ou has and could expand on the athletes needed to be competitive in any of them

bobcat 2000
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/14/2017 4:13:42 PM

a better non conference schedule is a good idea. try to set up home and home type games with Indiana ohio state west Virginia Dayton Cleveland state and Xavier. throw in some tournaments that have a field of strong teams as well. in addition to that a game or two against duke Kansas Michigan state or similar teams saul could then talk to the coaches of these teams and get top notch adsvice on how to develop and recruit players. all this will make ou a better team.

Bobcat1996
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/14/2017 8:15:14 PM

The MAC isn't getting two bids to the NCAA. So if the Bobcats aren't the league tourney champs then they need to consider playing in the CBI/CIT, unless they win the regular season/lose in the MAC tourney and get the NIT invite. I am not in favor of one year saying it is ok to "buy into" the CBI and the next year because the players are tired and injured not participate in a post season tourney. This university has been in the habit of participating in lesser post season tourneys before. What does that tell your Srs. and future recruits? They have plenty of players even if they are walkons and the Bobcats should play even though it is a lesser tourney. So the school is telling the players that if they would have won the MAC tourney and got the NCAA invite, that they would decline that and not participate because of injuries. We all know the answer to that question.

OU_Country
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/14/2017 10:07:28 PM

bobcat 2000 wrote:

you are right ou should leave the mac best conferences for ou would be big ten American big east or conference usa ou has and could expand on the athletes needed to be competitive in any of them

Trolling again, I see.

Casper71
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RE: What it takes to get an at-large bid

Posted: 3/15/2017 1:03:58 AM

In this day and age the answer to this riddle is not that difficult. Don't play patsies at home in Nov and Dec. If the Top 50 and P5 won't play you at home at least TRY to play in a bunch of top tourneys where you get a chance to play better competition on a neutral court.

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