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Topic: Strength And Conditioning

Topic: Strength And Conditioning

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FearLeon
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Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/17/2017 10:02:05 AM

Anyone else alarmed by how many injuries to players in the Saul era? Sure, you can chalk it up to bad luck. I just don't remember these many injuries under Groce, Christian, Hunter. Any thoughts here?

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/17/2017 10:22:15 AM

Solich karma. He's become good friends with Frank, and the injury karma has just rubbed off. ;-)

Last Edited: 12/17/2017 10:22:40 AM by OhioCatFan

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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GraffZ06
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/17/2017 12:28:28 PM

This was my reply a month ago in the original Jason Carter injury thread. Reposted here since it applies. My feelings haven't changed. Once or twice is bad luck. When it spans half a dozen players (or more at this point) and spans multiple seasons - it's a trend and an issue.

And while I feel there's certainly some amount of truth to the over-training aspect of young athletes forced to focus on a single sport - then you'd expect to see similar results across all of college basketball. Granted, I haven't taken the time to explicitly look up % of games/minutes missed due to injury across the country but my gut says this is more an OU issue than a college basketball issue.

GraffZ06 wrote:

Sounds like we need a new/better strength and conditioning program and/or some new/better trainers and dieticians.

Also seems to me Saul's philosophy of recruiting fringe athletes with niche talents who fit his style may need some tweaking. If guys physically can't stay healthy (and it's not 1 or 2 - but an issue for multiple players over multiple years now) then you've got to start looking at root causes.

I'm all for role players, but if you're asking them to do things beyond what their body might be capable of on a nightly basis - your probability of injury goes up significantly. It's like - who gets injured in middle school gym while playing dodgeball? It's not the athletes. It's the kid in the glasses with two left feet who's trying really hard.

Obviously until we get healthy this team is going to struggle mightily. I just worry in the bigger picture that our teams are going to continue to have health issues, and thus continue to struggle, until we address the above.

FearLeon
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/17/2017 12:32:18 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

Bingo^^^^^^^^^. It's like you have a crystal ball Graff. Something is not adding up with strength and conditioning.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

allen
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/17/2017 3:00:56 PM

We may have pointdextered ourselves to death by banking that scholly to quote on quote rebalance our classes. Let�s hope he we get healthy by the MAC tournament.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

OUVan
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 7:59:18 AM

Just wondering but which of the broken feet do you think would have been avoided with better strength and conditioning? Does anyone have any inside information about what has changed in our training program the last two seasons that may have lead to this rash of injuries? Or are we just grasping at straws?

rpbobcat
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 8:28:17 AM

I never realized just how fragile the foot and wrist are till I had issues with both.

One afternoon after wrestling practice my senior year of high school, we decided to play a pick up basketball game.
I went up for a rebound.
I landed funny.
My foot hurt,but I thought it was a sprain.
After a couple of days it didn't get any better.
Went to the E.R.,turns out I broke a couple of bones in my foot.

After college I worked as a grad. asst. for F.D.U's wrestling team.
I always wrestled with my wrists taped.
At one practice a guy came in for a take down.
We went off the mat and I landed on my hand.
I didn't hit hard,but knew something was wrong,,as soon as my hand hit the floor.

Turns out I broke 5 bones across the back of my hand.

From my experiences,strength and conditioning don't have a lot to do with breaking certain bones.

allen
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 9:08:59 AM

Taller people have to watch their weight. I remember when we the Cavaliers drafted Z, he had persistent foot problems and when he lost weight, the foot problems stopped. We can't blame the freshmen's injuries on strength and conditioning. As far a Jason Carter, I am sure that he was actively working to get ready for the season, he could have easily turned an ankle. Schools should avail the best technology and give the best guidance, but the athlete has to take care of his body. BVP had injuries in high school, so we took a calculated risk. Hopefully he grows a couple of inches because in our man to man defensive scheme, he will never be able to guard a three. He is a coaches son so he will come in with a great basketball IQ.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

OU_Country
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 10:13:23 AM

allen wrote:

Ben hasn't played a game for us yet because he's been hurt, and we're already critiquing how and what positions he can defend, or how much taller he needs to be? Really?

GraffZ06
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 10:24:41 AM

OUVan wrote:

Just wondering but which of the broken feet do you think would have been avoided with better strength and conditioning?

Strength and conditioning obviously focuses on muscles and soft tissues (ligaments and tendons) and not bones, but in doing so it allows the body to provide better support and proper posture/form for those bones. It should certainly vastly decrease the probability of injury even if it doesn't directly effect the skeletal system. It's how guys like LeBron James can land awkwardly and roll their ankle on someone and play the next day after treatment where most of us would have a broken ankle. Mind you, decreasing the probably of injury doesn't mean you completely avoid injuries. Sometimes tiny bones still break. Stuff happens. A lot of that comes down to not only how effective the strength and conditioning program is designed/tailored for the athlete, but how well the athlete follows the regimen (something I have 0 knowledge of with our individuals on the roster) and more importantly what genetic/physical limitations the athlete has. Some guys have short achilles tendons. Some guys have tight muscles. Some guys can't handle excess muscular weight (see mention of Z above). All of those things will make them "injury prone".

Which leads me to the second piece of my original comment.

GraffZ06 wrote:

Also seems to me Saul's philosophy of recruiting fringe athletes with niche talents who fit his style may need some tweaking. If guys physically can't stay healthy (and it's not 1 or 2 - but an issue for multiple players over multiple years now) then you've got to start looking at root causes.

I'm all for role players, but if you're asking them to do things beyond what their body might be capable of on a nightly basis - your probability of injury goes up significantly. It's like - who gets injured in middle school gym while playing dodgeball? It's not the athletes. It's the kid in the glasses with two left feet who's trying really hard.

Last Edited: 12/18/2017 10:26:41 AM by GraffZ06

GoCats105
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 10:49:27 AM

GraffZ06 wrote:

OUVan wrote:

Just wondering but which of the broken feet do you think would have been avoided with better strength and conditioning?

GraffZ06 wrote:

I just simply don't agree that the type of athletes he recruits are the reasons for the injuries.

-Wadley, Khari and Tony were all Christian recruits. And Tony had actually lost weight and got in better shape than he had ever been, then he broke his foot. No amount of strength or conditioning could have prevented that.

-I would be more inclined to agree with you about this if it were the football team, where bigger athletes smashing into smaller athletes can cause issues. But basketball? Cmon. It's a contact sport, but it's not a melee. The injuries the guys are suffering could happen to anyone.

rpbobcat
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 11:30:05 AM

GoCats105 wrote:

As I posted above,I broke bones in my foot and hand,from "freak" injuries,when I was in great shape.
In the case of my hand,at the time I was also doing a strength and conditioning regime at F.D.U..That included free weights and Nautilus 3-4 days a week.

A couple of years ago my wife got a stress fracture in her foot.
I was talking to her orthopedist about it,and my past experiences with fractures.
He showed just how many bones there are in your foot and hand,and how fragile they are.
When I told him about my hand,he said the way I broke the bones was like "domino's".Once one snaps,the rest of the line followed suit.

Last Edited: 12/18/2017 11:30:50 AM by rpbobcat

allen
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 12:44:06 PM

OU_Country wrote:

allen wrote:

Ben hasn't played a game for us yet because he's been hurt, and we're already critiquing how and what positions he can defend, or how much taller he needs to be? Really?

He will have to improve his lateral quickness, especially if a team played a Laster type at the three. He would have to lose weight and get a lot quicker, if he grows to 6�9�. He can guard the 4 and get his shot off against other 4�s.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

GraffZ06
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 12:45:08 PM

I don't think anybody is debating freak injuries happen. Tiny bones break. Nobody freaked out over Campbell's injury and just chalked it up to bad luck. But, it's a matter of wondering where the line between freak injuries stops and systematic issues start. We have had enough occurrences which now span multiple players and multiple years which seem to exceed standard probabilities. At some point you can't keep blaming it on rolling snake eyes yet again and have to understand that there's something wrong (I'm not saying we ARE at that point - just that it seems logically fair to start discussing/considering it and what those issues might be).

Otherwise, if it WERE within the standard probability to have these injuries then a lot of other college basketball teams would have similar games/minutes missed due to injury as we have. Maybe that's the case and I'm just not seeing it - again I don't have any hard numbers to say one way or the other - but my gut tells me otherwise.

Last Edited: 12/18/2017 12:48:26 PM by GraffZ06

allen
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 12:46:57 PM

rpbobcat wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

Khari was so slight when he arrived. He needed to be a lot stronger. Wadley has an autoimmune disorder.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

GoCats105
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 2:30:59 PM

allen wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

allen wrote:

Ben hasn't played a game for us yet because he's been hurt, and we're already critiquing how and what positions he can defend, or how much taller he needs to be? Really?

WE HAVEN'T SEEN HIM PLAY A GAME YET. How do you know how quick he is laterally, at game speed, against Division 1 competition? Nobody knows.

GoCats105
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 2:41:28 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

Plenty of people freaked out when Tony went down. Pretty sure some people on here actually wrote off the season, but the team adjusted once Jason got more minutes and acclimated to the starting lineup.

If we're going to talk about a standard probability or deviation, this has to be an outlier season. I can't remember a time where multiple impact players went down with injuries. You may see one guy go down or two, but we've had an entire lineup miss time (Carter, BVP, Gareri, Dartis, Mickle, and now maybe Laster).

Last Edited: 12/18/2017 2:51:49 PM by GoCats105

spongeBOB CATpants
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 2:42:48 PM

OUVan wrote:

I would say the loss of Zach Brulette as strength coach for basketball could have an affect. He oversaw men's hoops, vball, and baseball/softball from 2012-2014 and may not have gotten the credit he deserved in the success of these teams. Not only were his programs the best I experienced in my 5 year career(I trained under 3-4 current staff members), he also taught us toughness and a winning mindset.

His philosophies were way different than any of the other coaches on staff. He had an individual plan for each athlete and his number one priority was our health. So much so that at the end of each workout, we would fill out a sheet that gave him an idea of how our bodies were holding up. This included a "voodoo doll" picture where we could literally draw an arrow to what hurt and also recorded our sleep patterns and water intake.

He is currently the head strength coach for back to back natty champs Oklahoma softball...

GraffZ06
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 2:57:16 PM

Oops. That's interesting. I didn't know that. Just adds more fuel to the "there's something going on here" fire.

allen
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 3:42:32 PM

GoCats105 wrote:

allen wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

allen wrote:

Ben hasn't played a game for us yet because he's been hurt, and we're already critiquing how and what positions he can defend, or how much taller he needs to be? Really?

WE HAVEN'T SEEN HIM PLAY A GAME YET. How do you know how quick he is laterally, at game speed, against Division 1 competition? Nobody knows.

I watched his videos.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

OU_Country
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 7:39:36 PM

allen wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

allen wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

allen wrote:

Ben hasn't played a game for us yet because he's been hurt, and we're already critiquing how and what positions he can defend, or how much taller he needs to be? Really?

WE HAVEN'T SEEN HIM PLAY A GAME YET. How do you know how quick he is laterally, at game speed, against Division 1 competition? Nobody knows.

I watched his videos.

You watched his YouTube videos? Hahahaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeff McKinney
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/18/2017 11:19:51 PM

allen wrote:

What do you mean "twisted his ankle"? His problem is a stress fracture .

As for BVP...you say "injuries" in the plural, but to my knowledge the only injury he had in HS was the foot injury identical to his current injury. Did he have other injuries I'm not aware of?

OUVan
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/19/2017 9:02:13 AM

allen wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

allen wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

allen wrote:

Ben hasn't played a game for us yet because he's been hurt, and we're already critiquing how and what positions he can defend, or how much taller he needs to be? Really?

WE HAVEN'T SEEN HIM PLAY A GAME YET. How do you know how quick he is laterally, at game speed, against Division 1 competition? Nobody knows.

I watched his videos.

Are these the same videos you were watching when you said he couldn't jump or run the court? We all know why you don't like Vander Plas.

allen
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/19/2017 10:04:20 AM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

allen wrote:

Jeff, I thought he had a shoulder injury as well, I could be wrong.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

OU_Country
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RE: Strength And Conditioning

Posted: 12/19/2017 10:10:15 AM

OUVan wrote:

allen wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

allen wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

allen wrote:

Ben hasn't played a game for us yet because he's been hurt, and we're already critiquing how and what positions he can defend, or how much taller he needs to be? Really?

WE HAVEN'T SEEN HIM PLAY A GAME YET. How do you know how quick he is laterally, at game speed, against Division 1 competition? Nobody knows.

I watched his videos.

Are these the same videos you were watching when you said he couldn't jump or run the court? We all know why you don't like Vander Plas.

Considering that he's not yet seen the floor for a minute because of injury, this is perplexing to me as well. Saul has had glowing things to say about him, and the last big he did that about was Jason Carter. That worked out well last year. Get them both healthy, get them 3-4 games together, and let's see how they look. Me personally, that's when I'll start to pass judgement.

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