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Topic:  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......

Topic:  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/8/2018 1:13:30 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
DublinCat wrote:


1- You don't have to walk far out of the US to find a far worse situation elsewhere. Gun violence is a major challenge here as it is in other countries. Its not just gun violence either; London "reports" a higher murder rate than NYC. The US is one country that reports every incident. Contrary to agenda driven articles, there are far more dangerous places than here.




You'd have to walk pretty far to find a far worse situation in a developed country, like forever. You are going on about critical thinking but you keep saying things that are absolutely false. The murder rate in London is roughly HALF that of NYC, and NYC is the safest big city in the United States. In 2017 there were 131 homicides in London and 292 in NYC and they have a similar sized population. St. Louis has a homicide rate that is almost 20 times that of NYC, and over 55 times that of London!

The US has 4.88 homicides per 100,000, over five times the rate in the UK. No developed country is more dangerous than the United States. That is a fact.



How does including Chicago with NYC affect the argument except for establishing that the United States needs to be considered city and country separately. The danger zones that a few cities are should not damn the entire United States.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/8/2018 3:43:48 PM 
Per capita, Chicago had the 25th highest murder rate in the country in 2015.

This is a problem in cities of all sizes, across the country. Places like Salinas, CA and South Bend, IN all rank in the top 30 nationally. This isn't an issue that's isolated to a few cities. It's a national issue.

The United States has a serious issue with gun violence, regardless of how you parse the data, and regardless of how badly you want to argue otherwise.

The data is clear. It's willful ignorance to pretend otherwise.

Last Edited: 9/8/2018 3:46:06 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/8/2018 5:45:49 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Per capita, Chicago had the 25th highest murder rate in the country in 2015.

This is a problem in cities of all sizes, across the country. Places like Salinas, CA and South Bend, IN all rank in the top 30 nationally. This isn't an issue that's isolated to a few cities. It's a national issue.

The United States has a serious issue with gun violence, regardless of how you parse the data, and regardless of how badly you want to argue otherwise.

The data is clear. It's willful ignorance to pretend otherwise.


St. Louis gets hammered statistically, per 100,000, when the city of 300,000 is counted without the metro area which is 2.85 mil. Chicago's numbers get diluted by rolling them into the entire metro area. Sadly it is hard to find good numbers for practically anything. Please correct me if I am wrong.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/8/2018 6:29:08 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Per capita, Chicago had the 25th highest murder rate in the country in 2015.

This is a problem in cities of all sizes, across the country. Places like Salinas, CA and South Bend, IN all rank in the top 30 nationally. This isn't an issue that's isolated to a few cities. It's a national issue.

The United States has a serious issue with gun violence, regardless of how you parse the data, and regardless of how badly you want to argue otherwise.

The data is clear. It's willful ignorance to pretend otherwise.


St. Louis gets hammered statistically, per 100,000, when the city of 300,000 is counted without the metro area which is 2.85 mil. Chicago's numbers get diluted by rolling them into the entire metro area. Sadly it is hard to find good numbers for practically anything. Please correct me if I am wrong.



I agree with this; it's basically the same point I've been making to DublinCat. Parsing these numbers into smaller samples dilutes their meaning.

DublinCat, for instance, cited a story about London's murder rate passing New York's. Which is true. Accept the 'rate' in this case was measured over a month, in which London had 15 murders to New York's 14. And it was the first time that had ever happened. Overall, as Del pointed out, New York's murder rate remains higher despite a lower instance of violent crimes. I bet you can guess what fewer violent crimes result in more deaths in America.

Per capita, across the entire population of the US, the murder rate is substantially higher than most other developed nations. It is 5X the rate if Great Britain, for instance. This is not because we are inherently violent; in fact, our rate if violent crimes it's not drastically different than Great Britain's. Instead, it's because guns are easy to get, and therefore our violent crimes are more likely to result in death.

America, as a country, has an abnormally high murder rate. We also have a very high rate of gun ownership. The vast majority of those murders are committed with guns. It doesn't take perfect data to see the correlation between those two things.

By the way, you know why this data is hard to come by? The NRA lobbied to make sure Congress doesn't provide government funding to research gun violence. Which tells you exactly what the NRA's internal data says about all of this.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/8/2018 9:24:37 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Per capita, across the entire population of the US, the murder rate is substantially higher than most other developed nations. It is 5X the rate if Great Britain, for instance. This is not because we are inherently violent; in fact, our rate if violent crimes it's not drastically different than Great Britain's. Instead, it's because guns are easy to get, and therefore our violent crimes are more likely to result in death. ...

I'm just going to point out that this is a logical leap, a theoretical conclusion presented as a fact. Had you said "Many believe that it's because guns are easy to get", or "the most likely explanation is because guns..." I would have no quarrel with it. The problem is that correlation doesn't prove causation. For example, it's possible that causation is something different. Perhaps, for example, US youth play more violent video games, and are thus more inclined to use guns, and also more likely to commit violent crimes (i.e. an independent cause leads to both). Or, perhaps US youth watch more violent movies, and are thus inured to violence, and thus more apt to commit violent crime. Or, perhaps they are more atheistic, or perhaps more apt to be raised in day care rather than a family home, or perhaps people in the US are more apt to be excluded from social activities and become "loners", or perhaps something altogether different.

Again, I support reasonable gun control. I think gun control would be helpful, especially in the short run. I also favor researching what is going wrong in the particular people that is causing them to commit the violence because, if we don't find the answer to that, the violence will continue, but in other (quite probably worse) forms.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Maddog13
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 11:18:38 AM 
I was kind of hoping that a discussion thread called "Machine Gun at the Peden Gate...." was going to be actually about a newfound quarterback prospect that was going to help the Bobcats sweep the MAC this year, but, alas, it is another ongoing debate about guns. Look, the constitution clearly makes sure that everyone is going to be allowed to keep their flintlock muskets. As for a bunker busting bomb, I would think that the ATF might have some issues with that. As for the right to own automatic weapons, this seems like an absolutely pointless debate. Anyone, besides the military or law enforcement, who wants one of those bad boys is either up to no good, has a screw loose, or -- like those who still prefer to drive oversized trucks, who don't use them for work -- are clearly trying to make up for some personal deficit, which is why Sigmund Freud never drove an oversized truck or was he ever packing an automatic weapon. Simply put, can we get back to a discussion of football and leave this kind of debate to another forum.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 12:27:04 PM 
I thought Machine Gun might be some new rap artist performing before the game.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 1:58:48 PM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Per capita, across the entire population of the US, the murder rate is substantially higher than most other developed nations. It is 5X the rate if Great Britain, for instance. This is not because we are inherently violent; in fact, our rate if violent crimes it's not drastically different than Great Britain's. Instead, it's because guns are easy to get, and therefore our violent crimes are more likely to result in death. ...

I'm just going to point out that this is a logical leap, a theoretical conclusion presented as a fact. Had you said "Many believe that it's because guns are easy to get", or "the most likely explanation is because guns..." I would have no quarrel with it. The problem is that correlation doesn't prove causation. For example, it's possible that causation is something different. Perhaps, for example, US youth play more violent video games, and are thus more inclined to use guns, and also more likely to commit violent crimes (i.e. an independent cause leads to both). Or, perhaps US youth watch more violent movies, and are thus inured to violence, and thus more apt to commit violent crime. Or, perhaps they are more atheistic, or perhaps more apt to be raised in day care rather than a family home, or perhaps people in the US are more apt to be excluded from social activities and become "loners", or perhaps something altogether different.

Again, I support reasonable gun control. I think gun control would be helpful, especially in the short run. I also favor researching what is going wrong in the particular people that is causing them to commit the violence because, if we don't find the answer to that, the violence will continue, but in other (quite probably worse) forms.


No, it's not a logical leap or a theoretical conclusion presented as fact. It's a logical conclusion based on data and a comparison of that data to similar data in other societies.

These are facts:

1. Americans are not more inclined to violence, statistically speaking. There is not more crime than in other developed countries. There are just more homicides.

2. It has been generally accepted since 1999 that the major cause of this is the mere presence of guns. Violent crimes and altercations are much more likely to become lethal because of guns. This was the seminal work on the the topic: https://www.amazon.com/Crime-Is-Not-Problem-Violence/dp/0... .

3. The same types of crimes are 54 times as likely to be lethal in New York City than in London.

If you want to present some data that any of those three things are the case because of violent video games, lack of religion, or lack of family structure, feel free. I'd be very curious to see it.

I mean, Japan, China, South Korea, Germany and Great Britain join the US as the top 6 video game playing countries. What are their homicide rates compared to ours? There are about 400,000 US children in foster care. China has 20.6 million. Many, many western countries are less religious than the US and have much lower homicide rates.

I'm presenting data and explaining the obvious logic behind my conclusion. You're throwing our theories without any support in order to avoid the obvious conclusion staring everybody in the face. You might not want to be accusing others of logical leaps.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 4:01:28 PM 
Maddog13 wrote:


Look, the constitution clearly makes sure that everyone is going to be allowed to keep their flintlock muskets. As for a bunker busting bomb, I would think that the ATF might have some issues with that. As for the right to own automatic weapons, this seems like an absolutely pointless debate. Anyone, besides the military or law enforcement, who wants one of those bad boys is either up to no good, has a screw loose, or -- like those who still prefer to drive oversized trucks, who don't use them for work -- are clearly trying to make up for some personal deficit, which is why Sigmund Freud never drove an oversized truck or was he ever packing an automatic weapon. Simply put, can we get back to a discussion of football and leave this kind of debate to another forum.


First off,at the time the Constitution was written, the flint lock was the state of the art weapon.

If you want to take the position that the Second Amendment only applies to flint locks,then freedom of the press only applies to hand cranked printing presses or a town crier.

You can't pick and chose which amendments can evolve, based on advances in technology and which ones remain in the 1700's.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 4:38:15 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Per capita, across the entire population of the US, the murder rate is substantially higher than most other developed nations. It is 5X the rate if Great Britain, for instance. This is not because we are inherently violent; in fact, our rate if violent crimes it's not drastically different than Great Britain's. Instead, it's because guns are easy to get, and therefore our violent crimes are more likely to result in death. ...

I'm just going to point out that this is a logical leap, a theoretical conclusion presented as a fact. Had you said "Many believe that it's because guns are easy to get", or "the most likely explanation is because guns..." I would have no quarrel with it. The problem is that correlation doesn't prove causation. For example, it's possible that causation is something different. Perhaps, for example, US youth play more violent video games, and are thus more inclined to use guns, and also more likely to commit violent crimes (i.e. an independent cause leads to both). Or, perhaps US youth watch more violent movies, and are thus inured to violence, and thus more apt to commit violent crime. Or, perhaps they are more atheistic, or perhaps more apt to be raised in day care rather than a family home, or perhaps people in the US are more apt to be excluded from social activities and become "loners", or perhaps something altogether different.

Again, I support reasonable gun control. I think gun control would be helpful, especially in the short run. I also favor researching what is going wrong in the particular people that is causing them to commit the violence because, if we don't find the answer to that, the violence will continue, but in other (quite probably worse) forms.


No, it's not a logical leap or a theoretical conclusion presented as fact. It's a logical conclusion based on data and a comparison of that data to similar data in other societies.

These are facts:

1. Americans are not more inclined to violence, statistically speaking. There is not more crime than in other developed countries. There are just more homicides.

2. It has been generally accepted since 1999 that the major cause of this is the mere presence of guns. Violent crimes and altercations are much more likely to become lethal because of guns. This was the seminal work on the the topic: https://www.amazon.com/Crime-Is-Not-Problem-Violence/dp/0... .

3. The same types of crimes are 54 times as likely to be lethal in New York City than in London.

If you want to present some data that any of those three things are the case because of violent video games, lack of religion, or lack of family structure, feel free. I'd be very curious to see it.

I mean, Japan, China, South Korea, Germany and Great Britain join the US as the top 6 video game playing countries. What are their homicide rates compared to ours? There are about 400,000 US children in foster care. China has 20.6 million. Many, many western countries are less religious than the US and have much lower homicide rates.

I'm presenting data and explaining the obvious logic behind my conclusion. You're throwing our theories without any support in order to avoid the obvious conclusion staring everybody in the face. You might not want to be accusing others of logical leaps.



Every gun owner I know would support actual policing, prosecution and severe punishments for the use of guns in the commission of a crime. 2016 Baltimore, Chicago and New Orleans cleared less than 28% of their homicides. An early August weekend Chicago recorded 70 shootings, 12 fatalities and one lousy arrest. Lack of effective policing, prosecution and punishment is the problem, however, in the problem areas police receive little cooperation. Taking back control of high violent crime areas will require giving a damn about strict adherence to the law, everywhere, violent and nonviolent. Use of a gun in the commission of any crime, lock em up, lose the key.

Last Edited: 9/9/2018 4:40:20 PM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Sam bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 4:57:26 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Per capita, across the entire population of the US, the murder rate is substantially higher than most other developed nations. It is 5X the rate if Great Britain, for instance. This is not because we are inherently violent; in fact, our rate if violent crimes it's not drastically different than Great Britain's. Instead, it's because guns are easy to get, and therefore our violent crimes are more likely to result in death. ...

I'm just going to point out that this is a logical leap, a theoretical conclusion presented as a fact. Had you said "Many believe that it's because guns are easy to get", or "the most likely explanation is because guns..." I would have no quarrel with it. The problem is that correlation doesn't prove causation. For example, it's possible that causation is something different. Perhaps, for example, US youth play more violent video games, and are thus more inclined to use guns, and also more likely to commit violent crimes (i.e. an independent cause leads to both). Or, perhaps US youth watch more violent movies, and are thus inured to violence, and thus more apt to commit violent crime. Or, perhaps they are more atheistic, or perhaps more apt to be raised in day care rather than a family home, or perhaps people in the US are more apt to be excluded from social activities and become "loners", or perhaps something altogether different.

Again, I support reasonable gun control. I think gun control would be helpful, especially in the short run. I also favor researching what is going wrong in the particular people that is causing them to commit the violence because, if we don't find the answer to that, the violence will continue, but in other (quite probably worse) forms.


No, it's not a logical leap or a theoretical conclusion presented as fact. It's a logical conclusion based on data and a comparison of that data to similar data in other societies.

These are facts:

1. Americans are not more inclined to violence, statistically speaking. There is not more crime than in other developed countries. There are just more homicides.

2. It has been generally accepted since 1999 that the major cause of this is the mere presence of guns. Violent crimes and altercations are much more likely to become lethal because of guns. This was the seminal work on the the topic: https://www.amazon.com/Crime-Is-Not-Problem-Violence/dp/0... .

3. The same types of crimes are 54 times as likely to be lethal in New York City than in London.

If you want to present some data that any of those three things are the case because of violent video games, lack of religion, or lack of family structure, feel free. I'd be very curious to see it.

I mean, Japan, China, South Korea, Germany and Great Britain join the US as the top 6 video game playing countries. What are their homicide rates compared to ours? There are about 400,000 US children in foster care. China has 20.6 million. Many, many western countries are less religious than the US and have much lower homicide rates.

I'm presenting data and explaining the obvious logic behind my conclusion. You're throwing our theories without any support in order to avoid the obvious conclusion staring everybody in the face. You might not want to be accusing others of logical leaps.



Inconvenient facts.... or as some like to call them “fake news”.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 6:17:40 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Per capita, Chicago had the 25th highest murder rate in the country in 2015.

This is a problem in cities of all sizes, across the country. Places like Salinas, CA and South Bend, IN all rank in the top 30 nationally. This isn't an issue that's isolated to a few cities. It's a national issue.

The United States has a serious issue with gun violence, regardless of how you parse the data, and regardless of how badly you want to argue otherwise.

The data is clear. It's willful ignorance to pretend otherwise.


But it’s too easy to point at the high numbers of Chicago, understanding % and per population ratios is not convenient for some narritavies.
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Bcat2
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 6:26:25 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Per capita, Chicago had the 25th highest murder rate in the country in 2015.

This is a problem in cities of all sizes, across the country. Places like Salinas, CA and South Bend, IN all rank in the top 30 nationally. This isn't an issue that's isolated to a few cities. It's a national issue.

The United States has a serious issue with gun violence, regardless of how you parse the data, and regardless of how badly you want to argue otherwise.

The data is clear. It's willful ignorance to pretend otherwise.


But it’s too easy to point at the high numbers of Chicago, understanding % and per population ratios is not convenient for some narritavies.


Not sure why he would choose to report the 2015 numbers when 2017 numbers are available, except that in 2017 Chicago is ninth not 25th.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 6:53:26 PM 
Bcat2 wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Per capita, Chicago had the 25th highest murder rate in the country in 2015.

This is a problem in cities of all sizes, across the country. Places like Salinas, CA and South Bend, IN all rank in the top 30 nationally. This isn't an issue that's isolated to a few cities. It's a national issue.

The United States has a serious issue with gun violence, regardless of how you parse the data, and regardless of how badly you want to argue otherwise.

The data is clear. It's willful ignorance to pretend otherwise.


But it’s too easy to point at the high numbers of Chicago, understanding % and per population ratios is not convenient for some narritavies.


Not sure why he would choose to report the 2015 numbers when 2017 numbers are available, except that in 2017 Chicago is ninth not 25th.



Those were the first results that came up on Google, and frankly, it isn't worth the time to dig further. Because whether Chicago is 9th or 25th is completely irrelevant to my overall point.

If you think I'm trying to lie to you or mislead with the data I'm presenting, feel free to say so directly. But you're going to have to show your math.

Last Edited: 9/9/2018 6:54:12 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/9/2018 7:14:06 PM 
I enjoyed reading this largely civil conversation

But...Siberia, baby.
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/10/2018 9:46:47 AM 
What is Siberia's violent crime rate?


Edit: I think we're done here -- "Vodka and Violence: Alcohol Consumption and Homicide Rates in Russia"(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447353 /)

Last Edited: 9/10/2018 12:21:58 PM by OhioStunter
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Day Tripper
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/10/2018 9:56:08 AM 
Does this have to do to the price of rice in China?
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/10/2018 10:35:28 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...
No, it's not a logical leap or a theoretical conclusion presented as fact. It's a logical conclusion...

I think we disagree on semantics, only. Whether you call it a leap or conclusion, it's still a hypothesis that is supported by the data.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...
If you want to present some data that any of those three things are the case because of violent video games, lack of religion, or lack of family structure, feel free. I'd be very curious to see it.
...

Note that I'm not saying that any of the specific items I listed is the cause. I simply said that reasonable gun control is not enough. I think we should be researching social aspects of the problem to find out what is going wrong. Fifty years ago there were guns, and yet we never had people going into schools shooting people. Many things have changed over the last fifty years. Which of them are significant contributors to this problem? I do not know. What I do know is that if someone wants to come infamous for a mass killing, and he can't get a gun, he will find another way. I prefer if we can avoid that by figuring out what is going wrong.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...
I'm presenting data and explaining the obvious logic behind my conclusion. You're throwing our theories without any support in order to avoid the obvious conclusion staring everybody in the face. You might not want to be accusing others of logical leaps.

Again, you are missing my point. I'm not arguing your point. I'm going beyond it. Reasonable gun control is a logical necessity. Gun buyback programs are also reasonable, and an excellent place to start. What I'm saying is that, that isn't enough. We can't just do that, and pat ourselves on the back and say that we've solved the problem.

This, perhaps is where we disagree. You believe gun violence is the problem. I believe it is a symptom. Treating a symptom is useful, but doesn't cure the problem, and eventually the problem will resurface in some even worse form. I want to treat the symptom, but also research the cause, so that we can address that as well.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/10/2018 2:14:36 PM 
L.C. wrote:

Note that I'm not saying that any of the specific items I listed is the cause. I simply said that reasonable gun control is not enough. I think we should be researching social aspects of the problem to find out what is going wrong. Fifty years ago there were guns, and yet we never had people going into schools shooting people. Many things have changed over the last fifty years. Which of them are significant contributors to this problem? I do not know. What I do know is that if someone wants to come infamous for a mass killing, and he can't get a gun, he will find another way. I prefer if we can avoid that by figuring out what is going wrong.


This, perhaps is where we disagree. You believe gun violence is the problem. I believe it is a symptom. Treating a symptom is useful, but doesn't cure the problem, and eventually the problem will resurface in some even worse form. I want to treat the symptom, but also research the cause, so that we can address that as well.


I'm guessing the mention of the last fifty years was just a blind time frame, but if you use the last 50 years, there's an interesting reality. Our murder rate is lower now than it was 50 years ago (1968). In 1968, our murder rate was 6.9/100,000. In the last year with data, it was 5.4/100,000. Now, of course you were talking about mass killings, not homicides as a whole, and that's something where the data is not nearly as clear. However, murders of one or two people are more common than our mass shootings, so you would think that, if the problem were video games or religion, our overall murder rate would be higher. However, it's not nearly as high as the late 60's or early 70's.
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ts1227
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/10/2018 2:19:25 PM 
Bobcat Love wrote:
Most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.

Great for my 9 year olds to open that conversation.

Unless there is a documented threat against the long awaited Ohio/Howard tilt, someone should be ashamed of themselves for approving that show of force. Like a normal hand gun among the 97 police officers onsite wasnt’t good enough to hold off a drunk college student or rowdy alum.....

Not to mention, lets say a Vegas-like incident did break out...does the APD really think one lowly cop with an AK-47 is going to snuff it out?

Pathetic. If someone in Athletics approved this, they too should be ashamed.

I dont need to go back to Fallujah, I mean Peden... this year.


Sorry to bring this back to the beginning, I wasn’t around last week and missed it, but was it APD or OUPD? Most of the “militarize the crap out of it” initiativesthe past few years have come from the OUPD Chief.
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/10/2018 3:50:26 PM 
ts1227 wrote:


Sorry to bring this back to the beginning, I wasn’t around last week and missed it, but was it APD or OUPD? Most of the “militarize the crap out of it” initiativesthe past few years have come from the OUPD Chief.


I looked up the statutes under which the O.U. police department operates.

They are considered "State University Law Enforcement Officers".

I just wonder if anyone knows if,on school property,their authority is any different then any other police officer ?




Last Edited: 9/10/2018 3:51:57 PM by rpbobcat
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/10/2018 5:14:21 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
I'm guessing the mention of the last fifty years was just a blind time frame, but if you use the last 50 years, there's an interesting reality. Our murder rate is lower now than it was 50 years ago (1968). In 1968, our murder rate was 6.9/100,000. In the last year with data, it was 5.4/100,000. Now, of course you were talking about mass killings, not homicides as a whole, and that's something where the data is not nearly as clear. However, murders of one or two people are more common than our mass shootings, so you would think that, if the problem were video games or religion, our overall murder rate would be higher. However, it's not nearly as high as the late 60's or early 70's.

Yes, fifty years ago was an arbitrary number, and yes, I was only speaking in terms of the mass murders. I don't recall any of them, ever, prior to the shooter in the Texas clock tower in 1966, and even after that, it was a very long time before I heard of another.

Still, it's very interesting that the overall homicide rate was actually higher back then. Maybe it's just a visibility thing in the news, but back then, I rarely heard of murders in my local area, but now they occur with some regularity. I wonder what the local statistics really are, and if it's just perception that there are more murders today?

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/10/2018 5:37:39 PM 
There is something very curious about the United States compared to other Westernized countries, and I don't know the reasoning behind it. I do think it casts doubts on the thoughts that it is religious or video game-based, but maybe not.

In the United States, the victim of a murder is nearly four times more likely to be a male than a female. (3.8 for males, 1.0 for females). However, in other Western countries such as France, Germany, UK, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Italy, the numbers are much closer to 50/50.

And, while 96% of men are likely to be the perpetrators of homicidal violence in the world, there is not a spike in female murders in the US as compared to other countries. So, the US men are more likely to commit murders than other Westernized men, but US women are not any more likely than other Westernized women.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/10/2018 8:11:57 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
There is something very curious about the United States compared to other Westernized countries, and I don't know the reasoning behind it. I do think it casts doubts on the thoughts that it is religious or video game-based, but maybe not. ..

Again, those were only a couple of the possible ideas I threw out there. We agree, I think, that there are one or more cultural differences. Hopefully there is research already under way to try to figure out what those are, and on what sorts of cultural changes might have a beneficial impact.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Machine Gun at the Peden Gate......
   Posted: 9/11/2018 8:22:01 AM 
L.C. wrote:
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...
No, it's not a logical leap or a theoretical conclusion presented as fact. It's a logical conclusion...

I think we disagree on semantics, only. Whether you call it a leap or conclusion, it's still a hypothesis that is supported by the data.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...
If you want to present some data that any of those three things are the case because of violent video games, lack of religion, or lack of family structure, feel free. I'd be very curious to see it.
...

Note that I'm not saying that any of the specific items I listed is the cause. I simply said that reasonable gun control is not enough. I think we should be researching social aspects of the problem to find out what is going wrong. Fifty years ago there were guns, and yet we never had people going into schools shooting people. Many things have changed over the last fifty years. Which of them are significant contributors to this problem? I do not know. What I do know is that if someone wants to come infamous for a mass killing, and he can't get a gun, he will find another way. I prefer if we can avoid that by figuring out what is going wrong.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
...
I'm presenting data and explaining the obvious logic behind my conclusion. You're throwing our theories without any support in order to avoid the obvious conclusion staring everybody in the face. You might not want to be accusing others of logical leaps.

Again, you are missing my point. I'm not arguing your point. I'm going beyond it. Reasonable gun control is a logical necessity. Gun buyback programs are also reasonable, and an excellent place to start. What I'm saying is that, that isn't enough. We can't just do that, and pat ourselves on the back and say that we've solved the problem.

This, perhaps is where we disagree. You believe gun violence is the problem. I believe it is a symptom. Treating a symptom is useful, but doesn't cure the problem, and eventually the problem will resurface in some even worse form. I want to treat the symptom, but also research the cause, so that we can address that as well.


At no point have I argued that this is an issue that will be purely solved with gun control. But gun control is the obvious first step given that, beyond that, nobody can put forth hypotheses that have data supporting them. Social causes are undoubtedly important. I haven't argued against researching them.

While we're on the subject of logical leaps:

"What I do know is that if someone wants to come infamous for a mass killing, and he can't get a gun, he will find another way."

Isn't this a logical leap? The data does not support your conclusion. Why are you so certain it's the case?

Last Edited: 9/11/2018 8:29:02 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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