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Topic:  RE: Budget cuts

Topic:  RE: Budget cuts
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SBH
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Post Count: 3,747

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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/16/2019 9:16:04 AM 
This is true.
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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 562

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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/16/2019 9:32:56 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Talk about an economic model that makes no sense. First off, there are a plethora of public and private higher education institutions to pick from in this country, so while the demand is high, the supply is even higher. Secondly, the number of adjunct professors is at an all time high and they make a fraction of the money that their tenured colleagues make. Therefore, most institutions are saving a boatload. Add to that many corporations pour millions of dollars into research programs which actually saves themselves money, which in turn helps Higher Ed.

Now we come to the strange topic of endowments which range from the hundreds of millions of dollars like our beloved Alma mater has, to billions of dollars that the Ivy League enjoys. Incidentally, little ole Dennison which has about 10% of our student body has a larger endowment than we do. Why don't they use this money to ease ridiculous tuition levels? For example, the Catholic Diocese of Wichita charges no tuition for their high schools because long ago they began an endowment fund, the first of it's kind. Yet, most Higher Ed institutions had endowment funds in place when the Wyandotte Tribe outnumbered Catholics, long before the Diocese of Wichita came into being. If the Diocese of Wichita can do it, so can Higher Ed. These endowments are a shell game, where students, parents, most professors and taxpayers come out the losers.


Endowment funds are spent in the areas for which the donation was made. A very small portion of most university endowments are unrestricted. But some schools are targeting their fundraising towards affordability areas. Michigan and OSU are now tuition free for any in-state kid whose parents make 60K or less per year. Does this mean that Ohio should put more of an emphasis on raising funds for merit and need based scholarship funds than other areas? Or maybe not have an athletic subsidy that's equal to 10% of every student's tuition, and we're not even a particularly egregious offender in that regard.

Also, Denison is a private university, so that endowment has to go much further than at Ohio. As much as state aid has declined, it's still the second largest source of revenue for an Ohio public university after tuition dollars. Our endowment only generates about 25 million dollars a year in actual expenditures; that doesn't pay for a lot.
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cbus cat fan
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Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/16/2019 9:41:16 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Talk about an economic model that makes no sense. First off, there are a plethora of public and private higher education institutions to pick from in this country, so while the demand is high, the supply is even higher. Secondly, the number of adjunct professors is at an all time high and they make a fraction of the money that their tenured colleagues make. Therefore, most institutions are saving a boatload. Add to that many corporations pour millions of dollars into research programs which actually saves themselves money, which in turn helps Higher Ed.

Now we come to the strange topic of endowments which range from the hundreds of millions of dollars like our beloved Alma mater has, to billions of dollars that the Ivy League enjoys. Incidentally, little ole Dennison which has about 10% of our student body has a larger endowment than we do. Why don't they use this money to ease ridiculous tuition levels? For example, the Catholic Diocese of Wichita charges no tuition for their high schools because long ago they began an endowment fund, the first of it's kind. Yet, most Higher Ed institutions had endowment funds in place when the Wyandotte Tribe outnumbered Catholics, long before the Diocese of Wichita came into being. If the Diocese of Wichita can do it, so can Higher Ed. These endowments are a shell game, where students, parents, most professors and taxpayers come out the losers.



Ivy League students pay very little in actual tuition post aid. If venture to guess that the average tuition at Harvard's lower than the average at OU. Plenty of places put endowments to good use.


I will take your word for it that this occurs in the Ivy League. However, there are seven schools in the Ivy League. What about the hundreds of others schools that have large endowments. Do the students at Dennison, Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyan, Wooster and Oberlin of the Ohio 5 get affordable tuition? What about the public school system in the state?

A few years back, my wife and I stayed at a bed and breakfast on the Canadian side of Lake Erie. We spoke to a couple there who asked us about college costs. They were astounded. The odd thing is the provincial governments don't seem to subsidize Higher Ed any more than here in the US. Yet the cost is so much cheaper. You don't have a student debt problem, and you don't also have students getting a degree in under or unemployable majors. Sadly, Higher Ed is a mess here, and yet it doesn't have to be.

Sorry OUPride, I didn't see your post until now. Yet, I think there are lots of questions that need answered. Higher Ed shouldn't have to be in the mess that it finds itself in this country. As we have said so many times in other posts, I think we can all agree to an extent that it is unsustainable. The next economic downturn could see the end for some institutions, perhaps some in our own particular states and even our own conference.

Last Edited: 7/16/2019 9:48:00 AM by cbus cat fan
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Mike Johnson
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Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
Post Count: 1,706

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/16/2019 9:54:33 AM 
A couple anecdotes. 20 or so years ago I was speaking with the mom of one of my son's friends. They were thinking seriously of OU and Ashland. They chose Ashland because, with need-based aid, it would be less expensive than OU.

About a mile from my home is Walsh University. As I've had some involvements there I receive its alumni/friends magazine. Perennially the majority of every freshman class is comprised of kids who are the first in their families to attend college - with those families typically being lower middle income. I'm thinking that most if not all of those frosh and their parents, with need-based aid, are finding Walsh less expensive than state-assisted schools.

How long can small, non-elite private schools survive? Many have closed and many more have found themselves on the edge of the financial abyss.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,280

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/16/2019 10:14:45 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:

Do the students at Dennison, Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyan, Wooster and Oberlin of the Ohio 5 get affordable tuition? What about the public school system in the state?


The answer to your first question is largely yes. Though it's hard to put exact numbers on it, because it's often need-based and can be hard to know the demographics of the student body. But to give you a sense, for the child of a family with an income between $75-110k, the average cost at Oberlin's $24k annually. The sticker price is $71k. At lower income levels, the average cost can be as low as $11,000 annually.

cbus cat fan wrote:

A few years back, my wife and I stayed at a bed and breakfast on the Canadian side of Lake Erie. We spoke to a couple there who asked us about college costs. They were astounded. The odd thing is the provincial governments don't seem to subsidize Higher Ed any more than here in the US. Yet the cost is so much cheaper. You don't have a student debt problem, and you don't also have students getting a degree in under or unemployable majors. Sadly, Higher Ed is a mess here, and yet it doesn't have to be.


As far as I can tell, there's no difference between the most common degrees awarded in Canada and the United States. What leads you to your conclusion that you "don't. . .have students getting a degree in under or unemployable majors"? Seems like the offerings and numbers are basically identical in the US and Canada.

As for subsidizing higher ed, Canada spends $9 billion dollars annually subsidizing higher ed costs. And that's not an arbitrary number. They spend $9 billion because students owe about $9 billion per year. So they're basically subsidizing higher ed at 100%, though distributing it on a need-based basis so as to allow universities to raise money and improve quality.

For what it's worth, the US subsidizes higher ed at a really huge rate, too. The difference is that we funnel our subsidies through a network of private lenders and allow them to make no-risk loans and make very nice margins off of those no-risk loans, for some reason.




Last Edited: 7/16/2019 10:17:53 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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cbus cat fan
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Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,169

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/16/2019 1:47:49 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:

Do the students at Dennison, Kenyon, Ohio Wesleyan, Wooster and Oberlin of the Ohio 5 get affordable tuition? What about the public school system in the state?


The answer to your first question is largely yes. Though it's hard to put exact numbers on it, because it's often need-based and can be hard to know the demographics of the student body. But to give you a sense, for the child of a family with an income between $75-110k, the average cost at Oberlin's $24k annually. The sticker price is $71k. At lower income levels, the average cost can be as low as $11,000 annually.

cbus cat fan wrote:

A few years back, my wife and I stayed at a bed and breakfast on the Canadian side of Lake Erie. We spoke to a couple there who asked us about college costs. They were astounded. The odd thing is the provincial governments don't seem to subsidize Higher Ed any more than here in the US. Yet the cost is so much cheaper. You don't have a student debt problem, and you don't also have students getting a degree in under or unemployable majors. Sadly, Higher Ed is a mess here, and yet it doesn't have to be.


As far as I can tell, there's no difference between the most common degrees awarded in Canada and the United States. What leads you to your conclusion that you "don't. . .have students getting a degree in under or unemployable majors"? Seems like the offerings and numbers are basically identical in the US and Canada.

As for subsidizing higher ed, Canada spends $9 billion dollars annually subsidizing higher ed costs. And that's not an arbitrary number. They spend $9 billion because students owe about $9 billion per year. So they're basically subsidizing higher ed at 100%, though distributing it on a need-based basis so as to allow universities to raise money and improve quality.

For what it's worth, the US subsidizes higher ed at a really huge rate, too. The difference is that we funnel our subsidies through a network of private lenders and allow them to make no-risk loans and make very nice margins off of those no-risk loans, for some reason.






I don't have the specific answers to your questions. It was mainly based on my conversation with that couple and other similar situations. The article linked below seems to indicate that Canadian colleges and universities are much cheaper. Also, it seems to indicate that more experimental majors are offered in the US compared to Canada.

https://www.insider.com/college-canada-us-differences-201...

Mike Johnson wrote:


How long can small, non-elite private schools survive? Many have closed and many more have found themselves on the edge of the financial abyss.


I think we can name a whole host of these institutions in Ohio alone. There is definitely going to be a winnowing down of these places by 2040.

Last Edited: 7/16/2019 1:51:32 PM by cbus cat fan
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/17/2019 3:01:38 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
And this problem of bureaucratic overburden isn't just confined to higher education. Take a look at your average city school district. This is a deep, societal problem. We don't trust teachers to teach, so we have to hire all sorts of administrators to coordinate and insure that things are done in a manner that is acceptable to the various constituencies, the most important of which is the federal government's educational bureaucracy. A good first step would be abolishing the U.S. Department of Education, and return a greater measure of control to the state and local levels. However, the state education bureaucracies in many cases are nearly as bad as the federal ones. This will be no easy chore, and it can't be done overnight; it's a systemic problem and will require a complete reset of our national will in order to correct it.


Read this article in The Atlantic today. One point that it makes concerns local control. I would contend that local control as opposed to a national curriculum is one of the many reasons we're in the mess we are today. Ohio just passed a budget bill that among other things makes the threshhold for high school graduation Algebra 1 (9th grade math and in some districts, 8th grade) and English 2 (sophomore English).

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/08/the-... /
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/19/2019 4:54:35 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
Talk about an economic model that makes no sense. First off, there are a plethora of public and private higher education institutions to pick from in this country, so while the demand is high, the supply is even higher. Secondly, the number of adjunct professors is at an all time high and they make a fraction of the money that their tenured colleagues make. Therefore, most institutions are saving a boatload. Add to that many corporations pour millions of dollars into research programs which actually saves themselves money, which in turn helps Higher Ed.

Now we come to the strange topic of endowments which range from the hundreds of millions of dollars like our beloved Alma mater has, to billions of dollars that the Ivy League enjoys. Incidentally, little ole Dennison which has about 10% of our student body has a larger endowment than we do. Why don't they use this money to ease ridiculous tuition levels? For example, the Catholic Diocese of Wichita charges no tuition for their high schools because long ago they began an endowment fund, the first of it's kind. Yet, most Higher Ed institutions had endowment funds in place when the Wyandotte Tribe outnumbered Catholics, long before the Diocese of Wichita came into being. If the Diocese of Wichita can do it, so can Higher Ed. These endowments are a shell game, where students, parents, most professors and taxpayers come out the losers.



Ivy League students pay very little in actual tuition post aid. I'd venture to guess that the average tuition at Harvard's lower than the average at OU. Plenty of places put endowments to good use.



Exactly! The average cost at Harvard is just under $14k, aid is 100% need based on a sliding scale, and over 90% pay less than they would at their State school. Yale’s model is much the same. Bottom line, these schools are using their endowments and are producing degrees with a lot lower debt load.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/05/it-costs-78200-to-go-to-h...
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,022

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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/19/2019 3:46:02 PM 
https://admissions.yale.edu/financial-aid-prospective-stu...

Probably pertains to most on this board.

Families earning between $65,000 and $200,000 (with typical assets) contribute a percentage of their yearly income towards their child’s Yale education, on a sliding scale that begins at 1% and moves toward 20%.

Last Edited: 7/19/2019 3:46:51 PM by Alan Swank
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,454

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  Message Not Read  RE: Budget cuts
   Posted: 7/19/2019 10:43:40 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
https://admissions.yale.edu/financial-aid-prospective-stu...

Probably pertains to most on this board.

Families earning between $65,000 and $200,000 (with typical assets) contribute a percentage of their yearly income towards their child’s Yale education, on a sliding scale that begins at 1% and moves toward 20%.


Exactly! And the ratio of the economic disadvantaged that is getting in is actually a refreshing thing. The IVY League is no longer just a blue blood institution. When kids on average are paying less there then they are OHIO University, yeah that’s an issue.
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