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Topic: RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Topic: RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/21/2020 5:25:53 PM

71 BOBCAT wrote:

I think that we need to think about the possible impact in our world renowned MBA, Sports Information Program.

GO BOBCATS

Not sure there is any connection. The alumni base is still there which is the key.

BillyTheCat
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/22/2020 12:17:44 AM

71 BOBCAT wrote:

I think that we need to think about the possible impact in our world renowned MBA, Sports Information Program.

GO BOBCATS

Yeah, too bad we don�t have a Sports Information Program. But if we did I bet it would be world renowned. Yes there is a big difference in Sports Information and Sports Administration.

Bobcat1996
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/22/2020 8:25:39 AM

CatsUp wrote:

In my case, I'm afraid that should we drop to FCS attending games would no longer be a priority for us. I might buy an occasional general admission ticket and go to a game if nothing else is happening. Might also check for a final score on the internet, but that would be about it.

As far as being able to compete for a national championship driving whether to stay put in the FBS or not, I think at least a quarter of the P5 schools have no real shot at a national championship either and another 25% don't have much of a chance. Should they all drop down to FCS too? Pretty sure a significant number of them aren't money making programs as has been mentioned on here.

Lastly, the way it is set up now, would we really want to take scholarships away from those who need them the most?

Catsup up I would take it a step further. I would suggest only about 25% of the current power five teams have a legit chance at a national title. Maybe 25% is overestimating as it could be less.

SBH
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/22/2020 8:57:05 AM

BillyTheCat wrote:

71 BOBCAT wrote:

I think that we need to think about the possible impact in our world renowned MBA, Sports Information Program.

GO BOBCATS

Yeah, too bad we don�t have a Sports Information Program. But if we did I bet it would be world renowned. Yes there is a big difference in Sports Information and Sports Administration.

If we did, I vote it be named after Frank Morgan.

OhioCatFan
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/22/2020 11:50:27 AM

SBH wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

71 BOBCAT wrote:

I think that we need to think about the possible impact in our world renowned MBA, Sports Information Program.

GO BOBCATS

Yeah, too bad we don�t have a Sports Information Program. But if we did I bet it would be world renowned. Yes there is a big difference in Sports Information and Sports Administration.

If we did, I vote it be named after Frank Morgan.

+1

And, the award for the top graduate each year would be a copy of Strunk and White's little book as well as a copy of the AP Style Guide! ;-)

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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Campus Flow
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/24/2020 8:26:50 AM

shabamon wrote:

My question is not whether you think it will happen, but does it change your enthusiasm for the program, attendance, donations, etc.

Its a question that has been asked many times before on this board in different ways and the economic argument behind moving to FCS is completely moot at this point as nobody knows what the structure of the sport will even look like 5 or 10 years from now.

For example a school of thought is out there that the P5 will inevitably break away from the NCAA. That happens and it would leave the G5 behind as an 85 scholarship division still playing in the NCAA. What would that do for Ohio's ability to win a national championship in the NCAA if the P5 picked up the ball and went home?

All bets are off making a comparison in a different future structure that we be driven by conferences bigger than the MAC.

Last Edited: 8/24/2020 8:46:05 AM by Campus Flow

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Campus Flow
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/24/2020 9:05:06 AM

The P5 leaves the NCAA and the G5 becomes the new "P5" for what is left behind in D1. They hold a vote as to what individual FCS schools can join it so a school like North Dakota St could join as an independent. They could make it a performance based thing where any program which averaged 10+ wins has an automatic shot to move up.

Move the NCAA tournament back to 64 without the P5 involved and it makes free about 30 at large bids to the tournament. This repeats itself in every sport.

Plenty of name D1 schools would still be in there to make a NCAA tournament exciting. MAC would be a 3 bid conference with the P5 schools removed.

The P5 could even add the AAC if they wanted for the breakaway and I'd still view it as a positive move for the left behinds. MAC as a Top 4 conference in a left behind D1 sounds like a good deal to me.

The MAC giving up its place in the G5 on the other hand would be a bad idea as its a loss of leverage in a future system.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUPride
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/24/2020 9:05:28 AM

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

I'm all in. Can't afford to roll the dice anymore in FBS, especially considering we pay for an extra 42 scholarships due to being FBS. In addition, cut costs all over the department, no reason we shouldn't be ran like the Oakland A's. Feel like I've laid out my plan for going FCS for a long time.

Fiami on the other hand would stay FBS. Got enough friends there telling me they want to throw money around but the MAC doesn't give em a lot of reason to. Other schools won't step up, no reason to bother is what I've heard.

Miami doesn't have money to throw around at anything. Their fundraising (athletic and overall) is no better than Ohio's, and their endowment in somewhat smaller, and their athletic department takes a much bigger subsidy than Ohio's to stay afloat.

Just because a lot of their students come from rich families doesn't mean that Miami is a rich school. And speaking of that, I saw in a NYT interactive that Miami has a higher percentage of kids from top 1% families than any other public university except Michigan. Now combine that with the fact that they also have an average SAT score a hundred points lower than OSU, and I think that tells you everything you need to know about Fiami--safety school for rich kids who want to be surrounded by kids just like themselves.

ou79
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/24/2020 11:27:03 AM

If the P-5 would leave the NCAA/FBS it would make for some interesting arguments. For example, what would happen to all of their olympic/non-revenue sports when it comes time for national championships? Also, I do not see the AAC as a whole getting an invite to go along. What I think would happen is that the AAC may get cherry picked with a P-5 conference inviting a certain team to join that conference because of basketball. If that happened I think there would be certain P-5 schools leaving or being asked to leave their conference because basically they are dead weight. Obviously it would leave the MAC, Sun Belt, Mountain West, CUSA and AAC being the last FBS conferences standing. Then it would become a question of what ESPN would pay for the rights to the remaining FBS schools. Each of the P-5 already have their own sports networks in place and would not necessarily need ESPN's coverage. In addition thereto, certain P-5 schools may take a second look at whether or not they want to remain a P-5 school or go back to the FBS. Of course all of this would be $$$$ driven, but some of the lesser P-5 schools may come to the realization that their chance of winning a national title in the new P-5 program is somewhere between slim and none and decide to quite subsidizing their athletic programs in an obscene fashion opting instead to drop back to the FBS and let their respective programs have a fighting chance. Either way it makes for an interseting debate. BTW, our dropping to FCS is wrong on many levels.

Mike Johnson
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/24/2020 11:27:33 AM

OhioCatFan wrote:

SBH wrote:

BillyTheCat wrote:

71 BOBCAT wrote:

I think that we need to think about the possible impact in our world renowned MBA, Sports Information Program.

GO BOBCATS

Yeah, too bad we don�t have a Sports Information Program. But if we did I bet it would be world renowned. Yes there is a big difference in Sports Information and Sports Administration.

If we did, I vote it be named after Frank Morgan.

+1

And, the award for the top graduate each year would be a copy of Strunk and White's little book as well as a copy of the AP Style Guide! ;-)

I interned with Frank. My chief duty was assembling facts and figures for the next Ohio basketball season media guide. Later while I was soldiering in Korea, Frank occasionally sent me clippings on how Ohio was doing in basketball.

Last Edited: 8/24/2020 2:00:02 PM by Mike Johnson

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/24/2020 7:44:39 PM

Bobcat1996 wrote:

Mike Johnson wrote:

shabamon wrote:

My question is not whether you think it will happen, but does it change your enthusiasm for the program, attendance, donations, etc.

It would significantly dampen my enthusiasm.

I am with Kevin and Mike J as dropping down would make me sad. Playing Marietta College or Capital on HC won't do it for me. Sure MAC schools won't ever win a championship in football, but neither will a CUSA, Sun Belt or Mountain West team. Playing for a national championship in football isn't the goal for those leagues. The excitement of knocking off Pitt and Penn State in the regular season will disappear with dropping down.

For what it's worth, FCS teams beat FBS teams every year. Last year an ACC team lost to the Citadel, the year prior, a Big 12 team lost to Nichols State. A free years before that, North Dakota State beat a top 15 team. Before that, JMU beat VA Tech when they were number 13 in the country.

In other words, FCS teams have beat ranked teams more than we have. And without a bowl system that necessitates a certain number of wins, we'd actually probably be more inclined to play more P5 games than we do now.

Bobcat1996
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/24/2020 8:46:09 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Bobcat1996 wrote:

Mike Johnson wrote:

shabamon wrote:

My question is not whether you think it will happen, but does it change your enthusiasm for the program, attendance, donations, etc.

It would significantly dampen my enthusiasm.

For what it is worth ND State has played a BCS school one time since 2015 and they beat Iowa by a few points. The Bison can't get schools to schedule them. They are that good! I would not bank on playing more P5 teams if Ohio would drop a division. Not comparing the Bison to the Bobcats, but don't bank on a bunch of P5 games.

Last Edited: 8/24/2020 8:48:37 PM by Bobcat1996

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/24/2020 10:46:57 PM

Bobcat1996 wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Bobcat1996 wrote:

Mike Johnson wrote:

shabamon wrote:

My question is not whether you think it will happen, but does it change your enthusiasm for the program, attendance, donations, etc.

It would significantly dampen my enthusiasm.

I wouldn't expect it to be all that different than what we do now. One a year, rarely ranked, and occasionally a second in the form of Kansas. I'm just pointing out that currently, we don't really beat P5 schools. But some FCS teams do.

I mean, if the reason we need to stay in FBS is so we can beat a 5-6 Pitt team 15 years ago and knock off Penn State the fall after their whole team was allowed to transfer, that doesn't strike me as super compelling. We've spent a lot of money on football for a school that considers that Pitt game to be amongst it's best wins.

Last Edited: 8/24/2020 10:47:46 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

Jeff McKinney
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/24/2020 11:38:44 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Bobcat1996 wrote:

Mike Johnson wrote:

shabamon wrote:

My question is not whether you think it will happen, but does it change your enthusiasm for the program, attendance, donations, etc.

It would significantly dampen my enthusiasm.

Agree.

Re:the quoted statement about playing Marietta for Homecoming. I assume you're being tongue in cheek. If we were FCS, we would not be playing Div III schools. We could still have a good schedule. Competitively, I don't see anything super negative about moving to FCS. I am just not convinced that it would take care of the financial issues we are facing.

BillyTheCat
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/25/2020 8:35:56 AM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Bobcat1996 wrote:

Mike Johnson wrote:

shabamon wrote:

My question is not whether you think it will happen, but does it change your enthusiasm for the program, attendance, donations, etc.

It would significantly dampen my enthusiasm.

If we were FCS we could schedule DII schools though.

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/25/2020 2:09:54 PM

OUPride wrote:

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

The Miami donor base is richer than you think, and have heard from enough people they're just waiting for a reason to throw the money around. Haven't had a real reason to yet in terms of the conference they're in.

GoCats105
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/25/2020 2:45:10 PM

North Dakota State arguably has a more relevant program than Ohio and is in the FCS. Stop making it seem like a move down is a death nail to this program. You can make a successful program at that level and most teams in the MAC would automatically have a leg up on the rest if they moved down.

Competitively Ohio has no shot at a national championship in the FBS. Someone mentioned the 25% of teams that do...based off that number you're around 32-33 schools. I would argue you could cut that in half. The FBS belongs to 10-15 power brokers and that's it.

The Group of Five and lower tier Power Five are nothing more than schedule fillers. Schedule fillers for power schools. Schedule fillers for television. Schedule fillers for bowl games. They get handsome checks for doing so and if that's your MO, then you may as well try like hell to make the best of it.

More and more, I just don't see the point of schools like Ohio trying to keep up with the Joneses at this level, when in reality the power brokers will never let them into their party. What are we hoping for? To see an expansion in the playoff and then MAYBE one Group of Five champ gets let in? Is that worth it?

Bobcat1996
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/25/2020 3:14:06 PM

GoCats105 wrote:

Yes probably only 10-15 teams can actually win a football national title. Pretty much the same most seasons like Clemson, Bama, Auburn, Georgia, Oklahoma, Ohio State, LSU, Notre Dame and a few others. ND State could probably defeat lots of schools in those power five conferences. They beat Iowa a few seasons ago, Kansas St in 2013 and Iowa St in 2014. Not many schools in those power five leagues want to schedule ND State. The Bison are on another level. In the next ten years, I would like to see CUSA, MAC, Sun Belt, MWC and many American Athletic Conference schools join up to form that next tier. ND State would probably win many games vs those teams.

Alan Swank
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/25/2020 4:47:51 PM

Bobcat1996 wrote:

GoCats105 wrote:

We're already in a "next tier." That fact that people use terms like P 5 and G 5 clearly indicates that. Time to stop pretending.

D.A.
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/25/2020 5:17:32 PM

https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2020/08/14/athl...

"Football has been the biggest driver of athletic revenue in the sector. (FBS institutions) Football contributed $5.8 billion in 2018, a whopping 40 percent of the $14.6 billion in total athletic revenue counted by Moody�s. Growth in revenue has been driven by media rights like the payments television networks make for the right to broadcast games."

"Men�s basketball accounted for about 15 percent of 2018 athletic revenue across higher education. Women�s basketball was 7 percent."

The athletic department is a business. Revenues drive the decisions. To increase the "prominence" of our basketball program beyond it's present state, which IMHO is historically slightly above average among the 350 D1 programs, and peaks once every fifteen years or so, would require a cash infusion that this institution does not have.

Couple that with the lost donor support (read: donations) if we drop to FCS, and this premise is a financial L...O...S...E...R. No offense, but you won't see more donor dollars hit the Foundation coffers if we try to throw in and be the next Butler/Gonzaga, and our program doesn't have the pedigree and infrastructure to sniff that business model. Want to talk about throwing money away and trying to keep up with the Joneses? DOA

I know the basketball lovers here love to hate football, but this institution is far and away better off playing FBS football TODAY and in the future...empirically. If you were making this decision fifty or sixty years ago, then perhaps time would have treated this posit differently. But in the now, this is a non starter.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/25/2020 5:39:06 PM

D.A. wrote:

Doesn't our football program lose money though? I don't doubt that football is the biggest revenue driver in college athletics; I just question how much of that revenue we're getting.

And I think the idea of putting football money into basketball and trying to be Butler or Gonzaga is a pre-Covid one. The new reality in higher ed, to me, seems to be about reducing spending where you can reduce spending.

Last Edited: 8/25/2020 6:17:33 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

ZIPsCAT
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/25/2020 7:13:11 PM

D.A. wrote:

This is a classical case of cherry-picking. Athletics "revenue" at most institutions outside the 30 or so programs that can fund themselves, have some sort of subsidy in the form of student fees that is counted as "revenue" for the athletics departments.

It's absurd to use Donations to athletics to justify the actual costs. If Donations were substantive enough to justify athletics, then the programs wouldn't need to depend on student fees just to be solvent. Most of the MAC is 70% subsidized by the student body; which therefore means 70% of the "revenue" isn't donations, pay-day games etc.

It's such a scam to present Sport % Revenue as a legitimate argument to keeping up with the jonses. This is EXACTLY why college has become absurdly expensive.

Akron alone collects a $26-million subsidy from it's students. Last time I checked they're running an operational hole of something around $26-million. That subsidy could EASILY be diverted to things that actually matter to students/education. I doubt the loss in donations from Akron Alumni would even be seen on a financial ledger.

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2020/02/why-univers...

Last Edited: 8/25/2020 7:18:00 PM by ZIPsCAT

Alan Swank
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/25/2020 8:26:01 PM

D.A. wrote:

For sake of the discussion, can you give us a link to an itemized accounting of football revenue and expenses? And I'm a basketball lover and I DO NOT HATE football. Few do. We just spend too much money on a sport where we are playing for a 7 and 5 record to go to an inconsequential bowl game. I and others devoted over 15 years of fall Saturdays to make sure Bobcat fans had the best gameday experience possible only to have it swept out from under our collective feet by a carpetbagging AD.

OUPride
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/26/2020 8:41:49 AM

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

OUPride wrote:

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

The school's track record and numbers just don't show it. At all. If you're going by the word-of-mouth of Fiami alums, take that with a grain of salt. There's no school in America whose people so grossly over inflate their school's reputation, resources and prestige than Miami. The gap between what they think Miami is and what Miami really is i delusional.

Like I said above, smaller endowment than Ohio and smaller SAT scores than OSU. That's the reality of Fiami.

BillyTheCat
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RE: How would you feel if the MAC dropped to FCS?

Posted: 8/26/2020 8:50:42 AM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

D.A. wrote:

Do NOT confuse "revenue" with "profit"!

I do agree with DA, eliminating FBS football will hurt the University in many ways, and you will not see us become the next anything, other than who we are by jettisoning FBS football. As for us having a leg up, that would be short lived, as we would stop getting the quality of recruits we currently get due to being an FBS school. It's not like recruiting will stay the same.

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