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Topic:  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?

Topic:  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/24/2020 5:25:05 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
You've gone from Americans are resilient and we'll get through this to we're a doomed empire in a handful of posts. Interesting evolution there.

There's only one difference between your generation and the newest: what they want to spend the money on. Younger people think we should spend on housing, a social safety net and guaranteed healthcare. Your generation thought trillions of dollars dumped into literally endless wars was a good use of the money. Different strokes, I guess.

But it is funny how only one of those groups is written off as naive, while the other gets to treat 609 billion dollars in annual military spending as an inevitability because they made it one.

No, no. I've been saying America is doomed for at least the last 30 years. That is nothing new, and has nothing to do with the Corona virus. It's a known fact of history that Republics and Democracies all fail, and they all fail the same way, by committing suicide via spending. Our founding fathers were well aware of that problem, did their best to structure the Constitution so as to prevent it, but that all fell apart between 1913 and 1937.

I haven't favored the spending of my generation, either, and I've never said anywhere that the way they spent money was wise. Rather my point is that there is no more money to spend. If the following generations were advocating frugality, and complaining that they were saddled with the responsibility to pay off what other generations wasted, I'd feel sorry for them, and their complaints would be completely justified. That, however, isn't what they are doing.

Packing all sorts of garbage into the Coronavirus packing does sort of expedite things towards the inevitable end, though, doesn't it?

As I have told you before, I'm a Libertarian, not a Conservative, and not a Liberal, and not a Republican and not a Democrat. Libertarians in general believe in non-interventionist foreign policy, so your effort to pin the military escapades of the last 30 years on me are a fail. They also believe that Government should be limited in domestic policy as well. They believe personal freedom, and in economic freedom. They believe that government should be limited to only necessary functions, which would include maintaining order internally and domestically, and for pragmatic reasons, certain functions they are best able to perform, such as maintaining roads. Bailouts in general are contrary to Libertarian philosophy, which would be to let the weakest companies fail, setting the stage for the strongest ones to thrive in the recovery that follows. If an airline wanted to use all it's cash to buy stock, that would be fine, however, if they then fail for lack of cash, too bad for them. Those airlines that kept more cash would thrive and take over areas they used to service. Government bailouts encourage reckless behavior by corporations and individuals.

Last Edited: 3/24/2020 7:48:18 PM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/24/2020 5:27:37 PM 
Here's an interesting projection as to how various hospital systems will fare in the event we fail to flatten the curve:

https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/covid-hospitals?...

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/24/2020 11:15:27 PM 
At the proposed cost of $6 Trillion, the bailout will add a debt for each and every household in America of $46,656 (and that's if they don't bloat it even more, which they will). Will your household get $46,656 in benefits? These are crazy numbers. It isn't free money; it comes from all of us, and will saddle the country with a debt that can never be repaid.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/25/2020 8:49:31 AM 
L.C. wrote:
At the proposed cost of $6 Trillion, the bailout will add a debt for each and every household in America of $46,656 (and that's if they don't bloat it even more, which they will). Will your household get $46,656 in benefits? These are crazy numbers. It isn't free money; it comes from all of us, and will saddle the country with a debt that can never be repaid.


Comes from those of us who work, and will be redistributed to the CEO and shareholders. No worry though, at some point you will feel that Trickle!
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/25/2020 1:02:14 PM 
The US can recover from the coronavirus, but can we recover from the stimulus package? At least they cut it to $2t, but that's still outrageous. I feel $15,000 poorer today, but at least the big wigs who ran their companies poorly won't be out of work.

Last Edited: 3/26/2020 12:10:08 AM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/25/2020 4:59:21 PM 
I have a serious problem with bailing out Boeing, employer of probably dozens of managers and executives who belong in prison right now.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/25/2020 5:34:38 PM 
SBH wrote:
I have a serious problem with bailing out Boeing, employer of probably dozens of managers and executives who belong in prison right now.



+1

1000000%
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/25/2020 5:35:50 PM 
L.C. wrote:
The US can recover from the coronavirus, but can we recover from the stimulus package? At least the cut it to $2t, but that's still outrageous. I feel $15,000 poorer today, but at least the big wigs who ran their companies poorly won't be out of work.


On top of the $1Trillion in deficit we were already running. Notice the Tea Party has been in hiding for 3 years.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 12:09:31 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
The US can recover from the coronavirus, but can we recover from the stimulus package? At least the cut it to $2t, but that's still outrageous. I feel $15,000 poorer today, but at least the big wigs who ran their companies poorly won't be out of work.


On top of the $1Trillion in deficit we were already running. Notice the Tea Party has been in hiding for 3 years.

My ex-wife was big in the Tea Party. They feel abandoned.

Their position was hopeless from the start. By the time they started, the combination of Federal Government Employees, State Government Employees,Local government employees, Education Employees, and Big Business Employees who are dependent on Government contracts exceeded 50% of the US. None of those want to reduce government budgets, so even if the Tea Party had 100% of all the other voters (and obviously they didn't come close to that), they still could never win.

The horse is out of the barn. Government budgets and deficits must necessarily continue to expand until the system collapses. That's what has always happened before in history. This stimulus package is but one more inevitable nail. While I know where it's going to end, I try not to get too excited about it, and instead have a morbid curiosity in the process.

Last Edited: 3/26/2020 12:11:10 AM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 4:49:18 AM 
L.C. wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
L.C. wrote:
The US can recover from the coronavirus, but can we recover from the stimulus package? At least the cut it to $2t, but that's still outrageous. I feel $15,000 poorer today, but at least the big wigs who ran their companies poorly won't be out of work.


On top of the $1Trillion in deficit we were already running. Notice the Tea Party has been in hiding for 3 years.

My ex-wife was big in the Tea Party. They feel abandoned.

Their position was hopeless from the start. By the time they started, the combination of Federal Government Employees, State Government Employees,Local government employees, Education Employees, and Big Business Employees who are dependent on Government contracts exceeded 50% of the US. None of those want to reduce government budgets, so even if the Tea Party had 100% of all the other voters (and obviously they didn't come close to that), they still could never win.

The horse is out of the barn. Government budgets and deficits must necessarily continue to expand until the system collapses. That's what has always happened before in history. This stimulus package is but one more inevitable nail. While I know where it's going to end, I try not to get too excited about it, and instead have a morbid curiosity in the process.


I know a boat load of government employees that were diehard Tea Baggers, the Tea Party failed, because the leadership only cared about spending when the opposition was in party, it was a great sound bite. Now they have the ability to enrich themselves, and all they ever really wanted was a tax cut to benefit themselves. They were wildly effective in getting working poor people to defend the entire trickledown concept, even though it cost them more money. And no worries, Jim Jordan and those clowns will be out in full force crying about the debit and deficit the moment the opposition comes back into power. Those same clowns, don’t even mention such things today, it’s like the debt and deficit don’t matter, and it never did to them. Was simply a means to their end.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 7:57:35 AM 
So which side cares legitimately about debt and deficit?
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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 8:36:39 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
So which side cares legitimately about debt and deficit?


Niether. Some feign to, but none actually do.

How about these numbers, when breaking down the shear size of the package:

—If you spent more than $2.7 million dollars a DAY from the time Jesus was born, you still wouldn’t have spent $2 trillion yet.

—If you spent $22 million a DAY since we became a country (7/4/1776), you still wouldn’t have spent $2 trillion yet.

It’s a number so large, it’s hard to fathom. And to think, it wasn’t even on our radar a month ago and now it’s a reality.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 8:42:08 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
So which side cares legitimately about debt and deficit?


Well, that’s a great question, over the past 50 years there are trends in deficits based on parties, but do the trends prove valid? Personally for me, I’ll respect a person who’s just honest about not caring about it, versus those who give lip service and create narratives like they care.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 9:31:36 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
So which side cares legitimately about debt and deficit?

If any side legitimately cares, it is the Libertarians, who typically get <1% of the vote. Even there, the party members may believe, but if the Party actually came into power, I expect they would act the same.

And, that is why Democracies always fail in the end. We can pretend it will last forever, but the reality is that over time, politicians learn that they can get elected by promising that the government with do things for people, and they use the public wealth to reward the people that voted for them. It has always worked that way, and it will always work that way. It works, until it doesn't. Eventually the people start believing that their happiness, security, and wealth comes from government, and that the solution to all problems is more government, rather than less. Eventually, the few that actually produce get tired of doing all the producing, only to have it taken form them and re-distributed to everyone else, and they stop. And then the whole house of cards falls down.

If you look at South America and Africa, you can see that Democracies/Republics often don't even last 20 years before another collapse and revolution. If you look at other parts of the world, you see places where they don't have freedom, and don't have that problem - their government lasts a long time, but they don't have freedom. We have been very fortunate, and indeed blessed, to live in a time and a place where we have had both freedom and stability. That has been rare in history, and we should not make the mistake of believing it is inevitable, or that it will last forever.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 9:37:03 AM 
So are you for or against this 2T? Edit to add: my message and LC's overlapped. I was responding to Billy, but my question is open to all.

Last Edited: 3/26/2020 9:39:07 AM by Robert Fox
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 9:56:51 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
So are you for or against this 2T? Edit to add: my message and LC's overlapped. I was responding to Billy, but my question is open to all.


No, I am 110%for helping people in time of need, that is the role of government after all. Deficit spending is the recipe for stimulating the economy during recessions, depressions and economic hard times, we’ve got to prime the pump. My issue is growing deficits in times of low unemployment and economic expansion as well as market growth. What we have seen since the 80’s is troubling and going to bring serious issues. These past 3 years we should have been reducing the deficit (probably could have been in surplus territory by now), and then we’d be able to handle this stimulus package. However, now,we are going to be on pace to equal or surpass the Obama deficits dealing with the 2008 recessions, difference is the economy needed those deficits, currently our economy did not need them.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 10:10:45 AM 
Does anybody have a good resource about what's actually in this bill? Have had trouble finding anything super useful.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 10:10:49 AM 
L.C. wrote:
Robert Fox wrote:
So which side cares legitimately about debt and deficit?

If any side legitimately cares, it is the Libertarians, who typically get <1% of the vote. Even there, the party members may believe, but if the Party actually came into power, I expect they would act the same.

And, that is why Democracies always fail in the end. We can pretend it will last forever, but the reality is that over time, politicians learn that they can get elected by promising that the government with do things for people, and they use the public wealth to reward the people that voted for them. It has always worked that way, and it will always work that way. It works, until it doesn't. Eventually the people start believing that their happiness, security, and wealth comes from government, and that the solution to all problems is more government, rather than less. Eventually, the few that actually produce get tired of doing all the producing, only to have it taken form them and re-distributed to everyone else, and they stop. And then the whole house of cards falls down.

If you look at South America and Africa, you can see that Democracies/Republics often don't even last 20 years before another collapse and revolution. If you look at other parts of the world, you see places where they don't have freedom, and don't have that problem - their government lasts a long time, but they don't have freedom. We have been very fortunate, and indeed blessed, to live in a time and a place where we have had both freedom and stability. That has been rare in history, and we should not make the mistake of believing it is inevitable, or that it will last forever.


LC, political scientist would laugh at your comparison of US democracy to the versions that have failed in S America and Africa. Way more complicated than your simple comparison
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 10:17:11 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
[the economy needed those deficits, currently our economy did not need them.


I'd say that's the crux of LC's argument. Obama ran up the debt = OK. Trump ran up the debt = not OK.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 10:21:52 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
[the economy needed those deficits, currently our economy did not need them.


I'd say that's the crux of LC's argument. Obama ran up the debt = OK. Trump ran up the debt = not OK.



It's also the crux of Billy's argument though. Bush ran up the debt = OK. Obama ran up the debt = tea party rallies. Trump continuing to run up the debt AND passing huge tax cuts that reduce revenue = OK.

I agree with your larger point though: both sides are pretty hypocritical about it, but that's largely because when their folks are in power the spending goes towards things they like.
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 10:32:05 AM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

I agree with your larger point though: both sides are pretty hypocritical about it, but that's largely because when their folks are in power the spending goes towards things they like.


Glad you noticed my point on that. Hence the reason I often state I can't stand politicians. You won't, typically, get a vigorous debate from me defending a political who is spending money, whether it's on the military or the Kennedy Center.

Last Edited: 3/26/2020 10:34:34 AM by Robert Fox
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 10:33:02 AM 
Robert Fox wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
[the economy needed those deficits, currently our economy did not need them.


I'd say that's the crux of LC's argument. Obama ran up the debt = OK. Trump ran up the debt = not OK.



Lol, did you forget that the Tea Party revolution started by Obama’s deficit, which was a response to an economic crisis. Judge Obama on his last term and the deficit reduction that occurred, a reduction that Trump blew up in his 1st 6 months. And what did,
/do we have to show for it? Better infrastructure? Nope! To say, Obama’s deficits were accepted as ok, is ignoring the republican revolution that brought on the Tea Party.

In short, the GOP version of fiscal conservatism is lower taxes and increased spending. Has been for 40 years. Trickle down does not work!
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Robert Fox
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 10:36:54 AM 
You can't separate "spending" from the Dems. You and I both know that. Congress holds the purse strings.
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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 11:04:54 AM 
Billy, I totally agree that when the economy is running "normally", we need to be running surpluses. If you are going to stimulate it at times like these, you need to run a surplus to prepare ahead at times when there is not a crisis. In my view, Carter was the last President to make a serious effort at balancing the budget. There were some good years under Clinton as well, but they were the product of booming tax revenues from a massive bull market, combined with government inaction due to conflict between the Republican Congress and the Democrat President, and not really due to a systematic attempt at fiscal prudence.

BillyTheCat wrote:
LC, political scientist would laugh at your comparison of US democracy to the versions that have failed in S America and Africa. Way more complicated than your simple comparison

The core difference is that our founding fathers were well aware of the weaknesses of Republics and Democracies, and discussed them at length in the Federalist Papers. They tried to carefully craft the Constitution so as to prevent giving the Federal Government enough power to destroy itself. They included five protections against it, four of which are now gone. The South American and African democracies fail because they model themselves on what we have now, with all our protections removed, and not on what we started with. Thus, they start out with an unrestrained central government, without the traditions that we have, so they go far more quickly down the path to corruption and destruction.

What were those five protections?
1. Congressmen were unpaid. The idea was, no one would want to be a career politician if they weren't paid. They would do it as a public service, and would therefore vote for what was good for the country, rather than what would get them re-elected. They later concluded that, if they weren't paid, they might be more prone to accepting bribes, so it was decided that they should be paid. Now they are very well paid indeed, and we do have career politicians, and indeed, multi-generational political families, just as the founding fathers feared.
2. Government would have no power to levy broad-based taxes. If the government couldn't assess taxes, they would have no large source of money, and they couldn't spend. With only limited sources of revenue, they were very constrained in what they could do. To fund WWI, we passed a Constitutional Amendment allowing an Income Tax, which was expected to be temporary. We all know how that went.
3. Government was limited in its ability to print money and borrow. To get around it, they created authorized the Federal Reserve, a private corporation owned by the banks. The money we circulate as "US Dollars" are actually Federal Reserve Notes. By working with the Federal Reserve, there are no restrictions on what the government can do now. They can print money, create money, and borrow money freely.
4. Government was to have only three specific enumerated powers. They had the military power, since governments need to maintain order. They had the postal power, since (at that time), the mail was critical. The third power was the power to regulate commerce among the several states. That was envisioned as they power to standardize things, such as the width of carriages, so the roads would be the same in all states, and commerce could flow freely. In 1937, in the middle of the Depression, FDR found a flaw in the Constitution. Nowhere does it say how many Justices should be on the Supreme Court. He called in the Justices, and told them that, either they would re-interpret the Constitution in a way of his liking, or he would continue to appoint more and more Justices until they eventually outnumbered the existing Justices, and inevitably the power of government would be expanded. Faced with the prospect of the Constitution becoming a mockery, Justice Roberts switched sides, and the interpretation of the Constitution abruptly changed. Since 1937, the Commerce clause has been interpreted to mean that the Government has unlimited power. They can do anything, or regulate anything, that might somehow have even the tiniest affect on interstate commerce, and since anything and everything might affect interstate commerce, the government's power is no longer limited.
5. The Separation of powers - This doesn't restrict what government can do. It merely is a delaying tactic. It doesn't halt our trend to destruction, but rather slows it.

Since 1937, the government has had unlimited power, but we have had the Separation of powers to slow things down, and we have our long traditions. Traditions of people working hard, pride in the country, and traditions of overcoming obstacles and persevering should not be underestimated. Those are the things that separate us from new startup democracies. Had we started up in the 18th Century without the protections we originally had, we would have suffered the same fate.

Now that the protections are gone, we will eventually get there, but it will just take longer. Rewriting history, to stop focusing on the American successes, and instead focus on an idealistic view of government as our protector has led to a new generation that has a very different view of history than I have. Time will tell whether I am right, or they are. Will they convert the US to a utopia, or to Venezuela?

To quote a prayer by Reinhold Niebuhr from 1933, "Father, give us courage to change what must be altered, serenity to accept what cannot be helped, and the insight to know the one from the other." There is little I can change, so I try to stay out of most political arguments, and am simply content to observe the downhill spiral.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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L.C.
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  Message Not Read  RE: Does Dewine know something that we don’t. Was the MAC tournament a significant risk?
   Posted: 3/26/2020 11:10:01 AM 
Here's a slightly modified old joke for you all:
What's the difference between a Politician?

One party is both the same.

Last Edited: 3/26/2020 11:10:14 AM by L.C.

“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” ― Epictetus

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