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Topic: RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Topic: RE: Breaking down the disappointment

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greencat
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/14/2025 6:52:21 PM

Chicken George wrote:

Random Thoughts & Questions from the various comments throughout BA since last night:
*What is our NIL budget compared to the other MAC schools? That would be telling?
*I love Boals and his background suggested, now granted before NIL, that we we're going to be bringing some higher end talent to Athens. I'll be honest, I've been grossly disappointed and I'll be honest again, Groce appears to recruit WAY better. He reloads in a heartbeat and when we did go head-to-head on one recruit in particular this offseason, Groce got the guy. Again, back to point number one--is he just better at finding and getting them in, or does he just have more $$$ to work with?
*I will say, Boals & Company appear to get the most out of what they have in my opinion and the culture seems strong in guys for the most part appear to want to stay--but Akron again, just seems to have next level athletes.
*I sit behind the visitors bench, not our bench--but does Boals complain to refs on literally every, or every other, possession? Is that status quo for all coaches? If you asked MAC refs behind the curtain, would they say Boals is one of their favorites, or just a constant complainer? I just wonder if you complain every game, all game long, if your voice goes deaf? The refs impacted last nights game big time and Boals seemed PO'ed from the first whistle.
*In regards to Boals' salary, if NIL was our biggest hinderance to being better, I 100% would consider giving back some salary if I couldn't raise more resources, just like the top players in the NFL do. In the NFL, when a QB for instance takes top dollar, they don't often have enough cash for the players around them. On the other hand, guys like Brady were known for having team friendly contracts and having money to get better guys and in turn would win more, which leads to more endorsements, more winning and a better legacy. I wonder if in fact our NIL pot is something like $200,000 (just guessing) and another $100,000 gets you a center and PF you cant currently afford, if that money will pay itself back 10x with contract extensions, raises and maybe a better job down the road? If you decide to keep every dime and this trajectory continues, you could lose your job and go down a level after that. If a good center costs $35,000 per year and I was making $800,000 all in--I'd invest it to win as it will pay for itself if I believe in my other players and coaching.
*But yes, early in the season with everyone healthy, everyone in my section was under the belief that we were over rated, a bunch of mismatched parts, too reliant on 3 pointers and 1-on-1 play and way less athletic than what Akron, Kent, Toledo and even EMU appeared to be bringing in. Don't get me wrong--I came to every game, I went to Cleveland and I'm bummed tonight-I grew to like them, but it felt all along that we just weren't very good with or without everyone healthy.

I don't post these days...but last night and this entire season was a real buzz kills with some concerning trends.

And we need to stop enabling the recruitment of "better than nothing" scrubs. The next "4 points and 2 rebounds per game at Podunk Nazarene is pretty good, after all he's 6-foot-8" post is going to get called out as BS bigtime.

GraffZ06
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/14/2025 7:44:46 PM

Definitely a frustrating and disappointing season.

This team was hard to watch because they never did the little things, or important things, required to win well. Defense. Rebounding.

They were never healthy at the same time.

They never really got on a roll.

And at times it seemed even Boals was frustrated with the play - but even moreso - the lack of a true leader.

We had a bunch of really nice guys who will go on to great success in life. That's more important than basketball. But for this basketball season it just wasn't enough.

Not making the semis in Cleveland shouldn't be acceptable. Boals needs to put a team together that makes it to Saturday next year. Otherwise, 26-27 could get interesting as far as his job.

Also, Vic Searls needed to play more. He was our best big this year. Sure, he turned the ball over 3 times a night. So did half our guards.

As for offseason departures we know we're losing Clayton, Searls, Reef. I think it's possible we see Nicol move down a level, or that Ajay Sheldon moves somewhere else - but honestly, the one guy I can see transferring right now is Elmore James. The next guy might be Pavs.

Regardless, when looking at the roster, I think we see a MUCH different team next year. Especially if we land a big in the portal.

Hypothetical world where EJ4 is the only remaining departure. Here would be my ideal lineup for next year:

PG - Elijah Elliott - 6'3 So
SG - AJ Brown - 6'4 Jr
SF - JJ Kelly - 6'6 Fr (Dude looks like a freak)
PF - Aidan Hadaway - 6'8 Sr
C - Portal TBD

PG - Pavs - 5'10 Sr
SG - Jordan Fisher - 6'5 Fr (Can he develop into that Nick Kellogg role?)
SF - Jesse Burris - 6'5 Fr (He's better than ppl credit but gets forgotten)
PF - Kiir Kuany - 6'9 Fr (I think he could be our best backup big)
C - Ayden Evans - 6'9 So (He makes a jump next year, at least on D)

G - Ajay Sheldon
F - Zay Mosley (He could fight for minutes. Seems like an undersized PF to me)
F - Ben Nicol

I see 3 ballhandlers (Elliott, Pavs, Sheldon)
3-4 good and athletic wings (Elliott, Brown, Kelly, Fisher)
And 4-5 bigs (Hadaway, TBD, Kuany, Evans, Mosley)

That roster is going to have a LOT of new faces and a lot of new guys getting minutes. That means we won't be pre-season picked for anything (fine by me) and we should improve over the season (fine by me). And honestly, given how poor this season's team was, I'm good with next year looking drastically different.

greencat
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/14/2025 7:50:02 PM

Kuany isn't 6-9 and he isn't close.

Maybe 6-7. Maybe.

Cats5
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/14/2025 10:46:39 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

Switch Pav and Elijah. Then I�m sold.

71 BOBCAT
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/15/2025 10:54:35 AM

As I too am disappointed with the season, there was 1 stat that I read that summed up the season for me.

We played only 9 games fully staffed. Our record for these 9 games was 8-1.

GO BOBCATS

Andrew Ruck
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/15/2025 11:38:32 AM

71 BOBCAT wrote:

As I too am disappointed with the season, there was 1 stat that I read that summed up the season for me.

We played only 9 games fully staffed. Our record for these 9 games was 8-1.

Cherrypicking for me. If I am not mistaken, those wins were

NC Asheville (199)
Austin Peay (273)
Muskingum (25,847)
CMU (200)
Buffalo (340)
NIU (345)
Ball St (274)

I'm not sure what the 8th one would be. Nothing after the Akron game. And Reef missed Portland, Robert Morris & Morehead St.

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

ohiocatfan1
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/15/2025 11:39:31 AM

GraffZ06 wrote:

100% on lack of defense and rebounding. Both of which can be done with less than exceptional athletes. Both require grit & toughness and we simply didn't have it.

spongeBOB CATpants
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/15/2025 12:29:05 PM

ohiocatfan1 wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

100% on lack of defense and rebounding. Both of which can be done with less than exceptional athletes. Both require grit & toughness and we simply didn't have it.

Defense and rebounding were major weaknesses but I don't believe it was within our control. We played gritty and tough IMO, with a couple of exceptions. I think we simply got over powered most nights because we just lacked strength/size at most positions.

Losing Hadaway was costly as he contributed greatly to both defense/rebounding and overall toughness of the team.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/15/2025 2:32:01 PM

spongeBOB CATpants wrote:

ohiocatfan1 wrote:

GraffZ06 wrote:

100% on lack of defense and rebounding. Both of which can be done with less than exceptional athletes. Both require grit & toughness and we simply didn't have it.

I tend to agree with this. There were plenty of games where the effort was there, and during the stretch where both Clayton and Hadaway were out, the effort levels were great. Boals' issue as a coach has nothing to do with culture and motivation. He's great in those areas.

But the roster was poorly constructed and we weren't big enough or strong enough. Nowhere to look but at Boals, and without a pretty substantial overhaul this off-season next year's roster will be more of the same.

Barring one of the freshman coming in and being instantly a top 20 or so player in the league, or Elliott taking an unusually large leap, we don't have the high end talent to be anything other than what we've been the last few years. Suspect we're at least 2 seasons away from winning anything meaningful.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/15/2025 5:05:26 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

Hypothetical world where EJ4 is the only remaining departure. Here would be my ideal lineup for next year:

PG - Elijah Elliott - 6'3 So
SG - AJ Brown - 6'4 Jr
SF - JJ Kelly - 6'6 Fr (Dude looks like a freak)
PF - Aidan Hadaway - 6'8 Sr
C - Portal TBD

PG - Pavs - 5'10 Sr
SG - Jordan Fisher - 6'5 Fr (Can he develop into that Nick Kellogg role?)
SF - Jesse Burris - 6'5 Fr (He's better than ppl credit but gets forgotten)
PF - Kiir Kuany - 6'9 Fr (I think he could be our best backup big)
C - Ayden Evans - 6'9 So (He makes a jump next year, at least on D)

G - Ajay Sheldon
F - Zay Mosley (He could fight for minutes. Seems like an undersized PF to me)
F - Ben Nicol

I see 3 ballhandlers (Elliott, Pavs, Sheldon)
3-4 good and athletic wings (Elliott, Brown, Kelly, Fisher)
And 4-5 bigs (Hadaway, TBD, Kuany, Evans, Mosley)

This is still not a good team, and if Boals proceeds next year with only 4 bigs on the roster -- one of whom is Evans who earlier this season you were saying is a project who needs at least another year -- we're going to be worse next year than this year.

The roster and recruiting strategy is too heavily weighted towards guards and wings and Boals simply hasn't demonstrated a hit rate on bigs that's good enough to have much confidence in the approach above. We have to add at least two bigs to the roster this offseason, assuming none of Hadaway/Kuany/Evans leave.

Ideally, we have 3 or 4 players leave the program and Boals can take more swings at bringing in suitable frontcourt players. Nicol should be asked to leave. That seems pretty obvious given his inability to get on the floor. One of Sheldon or EJ4 should go, as much as it sucks to ask a senior to leave. I think we've seen enough from Evans to know he's unlikely to contribute and if he does, it won't be for a while.

If those three leave, Boals should target 3 bigs to add to Hadaway and Kuany. The last spot needs to go to a shooter.

GraffZ06
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/15/2025 5:24:58 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

There were plenty of games where the effort was there, and during the stretch where both Clayton and Hadaway were out, the effort levels were great. Boals' issue as a coach has nothing to do with culture and motivation. He's great in those areas.

"Plenty of games" and "during a stretch" - I agree with you. There were also plenty of games and tons of stretches where our defense was absolutely indefensible. Guys lunging at shot fakes and taking themselves out of the play. Guys not hedging hard on ball screens. Guys standing straight up with hands at their sides. Guys turning their heads from the ball and then getting magically beat back door or over the top (cough EJ4 constantly cough). Guys giving half-hearted efforts on switches or scramble rotations.

Then there was some of the just not athletic/big enough issues you mentioned as well. Where guys just didn't have the lateral quickness to stay in front of their man (Pavs, Clayton, EJ4) or guys who got bullied down low and backed down for easy buckets (Pavs, Clayton, Sheldon, Brown).

I agree Boals is a great motivator. Wish he'd recruit some more defensive-minded players like Reef and Miles Brown, Jaylin Hunter, Sears, BVP, Jason Carter, Lunden McDay. This years roster just didn't have those guys outside Reef and Hadaway IMO.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

But the roster was poorly constructed and we weren't big enough or strong enough.

Given the constant amount of injuries to key starters such that we never played with our expected healthy rotations all year, the roster wasn't big enough or strong enough. That's true.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Nowhere to look but at Boals, and without a pretty substantial overhaul this off-season next year's roster will be more of the same.

I agree, but go look at the # of freshmen and new faces listed in my hypothetical rotation post above. I think pretty substantial overhaul is exactly what is happening to the roster.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

Barring one of the freshman coming in and being instantly a top 20 or so player in the league, or Elliott taking an unusually large leap, we don't have the high end talent to be anything other than what we've been the last few years. Suspect we're at least 2 seasons away from winning anything meaningful.

Certainly no incoming freshman at a mid-major is a guarantee to do anything year one. That being said, you can't look at JJ Kelly specifically - but the entire trio of Kelly/Fisher/Mosley and not see at least 2 guys ready to contribute immediately in some fashion. I really think Kelly is going to push to be a day one starter. I could be wrong.

Then throw in the fact we're getting Burris and Kuany off redshirts after another year older and in the program. I think Kuany could have helped this years team - so no reason to think he won't help next year.

Add a year of Evans development. I know many aren't high on him. I still am.

Throw in a big from the portal that you, me and everyone else is hoping for.

Also look at the heights I listed. I see a much BIGGER, more athletic, better rebounding team. The question I have is the defensive side. Don't know until they get in the gym and work next year to determine that.

Regardless I see an overhauled roster that addresses a lot of what illed us this year. Doesn't mean it WILL come together and work, but I see the plan. I expect to be playing on Saturday next year with that roster. If not, Boals job gets warm.

Last Edited: 3/15/2025 5:28:38 PM by GraffZ06

GoCats105
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/15/2025 5:54:10 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:

PG - Elijah Elliott - 6'3 So
SG - AJ Brown - 6'4 Jr
SF - JJ Kelly - 6'6 Fr (Dude looks like a freak)
PF - Aidan Hadaway - 6'8 Sr
C - Portal TBD

PG - Pavs - 5'10 Sr
SG - Jordan Fisher - 6'5 Fr (Can he develop into that Nick Kellogg role?)
SF - Jesse Burris - 6'5 Fr (He's better than ppl credit but gets forgotten)
PF - Kiir Kuany - 6'9 Fr (I think he could be our best backup big)
C - Ayden Evans - 6'9 So (He makes a jump next year, at least on D)

G - Ajay Sheldon
F - Zay Mosley (He could fight for minutes. Seems like an undersized PF to me)
F - Ben Nicol

I see 3 ballhandlers (Elliott, Pavs, Sheldon)
3-4 good and athletic wings (Elliott, Brown, Kelly, Fisher)
And 4-5 bigs (Hadaway, TBD, Kuany, Evans, Mosley)

Seriously dude what does Pav have to do to get in your good graces? He just put up 28 points in a MAC tournament game and your first order of business in your hypothetical lineup is to put him on the bench? He ended the season averaging almost just as much as Clayton (0.2 PPG off), scored the most total points on the team, was 4th in the MAC in APG, and seemingly was the only guy on the team who was willing to take it to the rim and get fouled - had the most FT attempts on the team.

His defense needs work, but he does so much offensively you have to put up with it. And that's easier to teach than his ability to score.

greencat
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/15/2025 6:24:59 PM

EJ shot 37% from three which was decent. 84% at the FT line too.

A solid veteran who will never get sand kicked in his face.

I hope he returns.

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/16/2025 10:04:05 AM

GraffZ06 wrote:

"Plenty of games" and "during a stretch" - I agree with you. There were also plenty of games and tons of stretches where our defense was absolutely indefensible.

Our defense was indefensible all year. We were a bottom 10 team defending the three, and in this day and age there's no way to be a good team when that's the case.

GraffZ06 wrote:

Given the constant amount of injuries to key starters such that we never played with our expected healthy rotations all year, the roster wasn't big enough or strong enough. That's true.

You're hedging here way more than I need to. The roster, even fully healthy, wasn't big enough or strong enough. We felt Hadaway's absence a ton, but let's call a spade a spade: Hadaway was recruited as a 3 and is playing up a position, Clayton was recruited as a 4 and playing up a position, AJB was recruited as a 2 and playing up a position. That's a choice by Boals, and it didn't work.

GraffZ06 wrote:

I agree, but go look at the # of freshmen and new faces listed in my hypothetical rotation post above. I think pretty substantial overhaul is exactly what is happening to the roster.

I'll be more specific: Boals needs a strategic overhaul. His roster's far too weighted to guards and wings, and Boals isn't a good enough bigs recruiter to get away with such a short rotation in the frontcourt. The roster overhaul you outlined includes a single new big -- and it's a hypothetical one who isn't actually signed. Otherwise, the only addition is Kuany coming off a redshirt. There's also a freshman that may end up playing as a small 4.

GraffZ06 wrote:

That's all well and good; it doesn't address the frontcourt issues.

GraffZ06 wrote:

I think Kuany could have helped this years team - so no reason to think he won't help next year.

There is absolutely a reason to think he won't help next year: Boals' track record recruiting young bigs. What's his hit rate bringing 4/5s into the program as freshman? I appreciate your polyannaism, but your optimism isn't well supported by the track record.

GraffZ06 wrote:

Add a year of Evans development. I know many aren't high on him. I still am.

Of course you are. You are hopelessly optimistic about what Boals is doing. But I hate to be the hearer of bad news, but based on his freshman year production, the odds that Evans becomes a starting caliber big are very low at this point. Can you find any comps for somebody with those rate stats developing into a true starting big in the MAC?

GraffZ06 wrote:

Also look at the heights I listed. I see a much BIGGER, more athletic, better rebounding team. The question I have is the defensive side. Don't know until they get in the gym and work next year to determine that.

But only if you ignore Evans' rebounding rate, ignore that Kuany is actually 6'6, and make a massive assumption about the unnamed portal big that slots into the starting lineup. It seems like we might be a little bigger on the wings, but you're also assuming a freshman breaks into the starting lineup to support that position. In other words, tons and tons of assumptions and very rosy glasses to make the case.

GraffZ06 wrote:

Regardless I see an overhauled roster that addresses a lot of what illed us this year. Doesn't mean it WILL come together and work, but I see the plan. I expect to be playing on Saturday next year with that roster. If not, Boals job gets warm.

I fail to see the "ills" addressed. I see a recruiting strategy that involves offering 85% of available scholarships to wings and guards, and an on-court product that is smaller and not as strong as the best teams in our conference.

We've fallen behind. People will give Boals a pass on this year because of injuries, and he'll get another pass next year because the team will be young. And then he'll be 10 years in and the track record will no longer be defensible.

greencat
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/16/2025 10:21:18 AM

I think next years team can be surprisingly decent....if.....

a couple of good bigs (NOT scrubs) show up...the kid from North Dakota should be a priority unless Auburn and North Carolina unload a Brinks truck of $$$ at his door in which case there is a certain 6-11 juco center down south I won't name (you never know who is lurking) that would do just fine and can't take NIL money due to being international which puts us on even footing with all other mid-majors in his recruitment.

I reject the premise that we "can't" get a decent big from the portal. It's BS.

Last Edited: 3/16/2025 10:39:01 AM by greencat

GraffZ06
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RE: Breaking down the disappointment

Posted: 3/16/2025 3:05:39 PM

greencat wrote:

Kuany isn't 6-9 and he isn't close.

Maybe 6-7. Maybe.

This is all somewhat subjective without standing next to him with a measuring tape. He was listed at 6'7 2 years ago in HS. We list him at 6'9 now.

With my eyeballs from the stands, he's definitely taller than Hadaway (listed at 6'8) and is at least as tall, if not slightly taller than Clayton and Evans (listed at 6'8 and 6'9). In the huddle, he looked like the tallest guy on the team to me this year.

Again, that's unscientific and subjective. So maybe you're right. I'm just going with what they say and I saw.

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