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Topic:  RE: TOS to Boston College?

Topic:  RE: TOS to Boston College?
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/18/2021 4:18:50 PM 
FearLeon wrote:

I don't care if Ohio played Jordan and the Bulls that night.....one of your best players can't get off a plane and not fire one shot over 40 minutes.


If a player wants to throw a Kobe Bryant hissy fit, that's on him.


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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/18/2021 8:51:25 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
FearLeon wrote:


I don't care if Ohio played Jordan and the Bulls that night.....



In fact, if the Bobcats were led by John Groce, they likely would defeat Jordan and the Bulls...provided the game were played in the month of March.


Sometimes it takes hyperbolic humor to make a point. Well played! ;-)


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mid70sbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/19/2021 5:33:36 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:


I think some of you envious because he lasted longer at BC than Groce did at Illinois.

Just facts from me .. but fun to read all the animosity some of you carry years later.



Ha.

Ask yourself this....is Illinois better off now after pulling the plug on Groce sooner than BC pulled the plug on Christian? I'm not envious of JC because he lasted 7 years at BC. I actually give Jimmy C a ton of credit. It takes true talent to last that long at a power five school and have one of the worst winning % in NCAA basketball history over that time.

I've gone through this entire thread and it looks like at least 90% of the people here agree that JC is a fraud and overrated.





I'd bet you you may be the only one here who would use the word" fraud". Or maybe you don't know what fraud means. In any even he's been successful at being a "fraud", as you call it.
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/19/2021 8:04:29 PM 
mid70sbobcat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:


I think some of you envious because he lasted longer at BC than Groce did at Illinois.

Just facts from me .. but fun to read all the animosity some of you carry years later.



Ha.

Ask yourself this....is Illinois better off now after pulling the plug on Groce sooner than BC pulled the plug on Christian? I'm not envious of JC because he lasted 7 years at BC. I actually give Jimmy C a ton of credit. It takes true talent to last that long at a power five school and have one of the worst winning % in NCAA basketball history over that time.

I've gone through this entire thread and it looks like at least 90% of the people here agree that JC is a fraud and overrated.





I'd bet you you may be the only one here who would use the word" fraud". Or maybe you don't know what fraud means. In any even he's been successful at being a "fraud", as you call it.


Ask Treg Setty and some other guys on those two Ohio teams if JC was a "fraud".




#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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ohiocatfan1
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/20/2021 9:15:16 AM 
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
mid70sbobcat wrote:


I think some of you envious because he lasted longer at BC than Groce did at Illinois.

Just facts from me .. but fun to read all the animosity some of you carry years later.



Ha.

Ask yourself this....is Illinois better off now after pulling the plug on Groce sooner than BC pulled the plug on Christian? I'm not envious of JC because he lasted 7 years at BC. I actually give Jimmy C a ton of credit. It takes true talent to last that long at a power five school and have one of the worst winning % in NCAA basketball history over that time.

I've gone through this entire thread and it looks like at least 90% of the people here agree that JC is a fraud and overrated.





I'd bet you you may be the only one here who would use the word" fraud". Or maybe you don't know what fraud means. In any even he's been successful at being a "fraud", as you call it.


Ask Treg Setty and some other guys on those two Ohio teams if JC was a "fraud".





Or Jon Smith.

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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/20/2021 11:43:05 AM 
I don't know if he's a fraud but he certainly is overrated. Since he left Kent 13 seasons ago he's had just four winning seasons overall and just two in three different conferences, both at Ohio and mostly with Groce's recruits. Even at Ohio there was a big dropoff in the MAC, from 14-2 in year one to 11-7 in year two. It seems like he's better at building off successful programs than turning unsuccessful programs around. He built off Kent's Elite Eight team and won with Groce's Sweet 16 team. But he flopped with downtrodden TCU and BC programs. That's why I think his next coaching gig will likely be at one that's having success now instead of trying to turn around a lousy program.


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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/20/2021 1:45:49 PM 
Fraud is definitely strong.

Christian is a fine coach. Not spectacular, not a disaster. He's basically performed at 'par' at every stop in his career. He inherited strong teams at Ohio and Kent, but the bar at those places is not Elite 8 and Sweet 16, solely because those were the peaks reached by prior coaches. His performance at those places was in line with the "steady state" of the programs.

Likewise, TCU and BC are tough, tough jobs. Christian is one of many in a long succession of coaches to fail to level up those programs. He's basically replacement level, maybe slightly above.

That's a long ways off from fraud.

As for the thoughts of Treg Setty, Jon Smith and others, it's unfortunate they felt that way, but I'm not sure how relevant they are to a discussion of Christian as a coach. Those guys were recruited to come here and play for a particular style of coach, and ended their careers playing for a different style of coach. It's natural there'd be tension and conflict.

Last Edited: 2/20/2021 2:00:50 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/21/2021 1:27:41 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
I don't know if he's a fraud but he certainly is overrated. Since he left Kent 13 seasons ago he's had just four winning seasons overall and just two in three different conferences, both at Ohio and mostly with Groce's recruits. Even at Ohio there was a big dropoff in the MAC, from 14-2 in year one to 11-7 in year two. It seems like he's better at building off successful programs than turning unsuccessful programs around. He built off Kent's Elite Eight team and won with Groce's Sweet 16 team. But he flopped with downtrodden TCU and BC programs. That's why I think his next coaching gig will likely be at one that's having success now instead of trying to turn around a lousy program.


Yes its remarkable when you can discount what JC did in two years at Ohio with Groce's recruits. Perhaps its unfair to JC dismissing his coaching job at Ohio for two years but there is no way to prove otherwise. Nothing proves that JC is a decent coach by top 10 conference standards. He ran with loaded mid major teams at Kent and Ohio but did nothing at the next level.


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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/21/2021 3:13:10 PM 
I'm on the record saying I don't think he's a bad coach, he's just a coach whose time has passed. Grew up on the East Coast at a time when physical, ground-and-pound basketball was the trend. And that's largely his approach. It just happens basketball is a perimeter game now.


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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/21/2021 7:55:54 PM 
Anyone ever wonder why Groce didn’t win a National Championship at Illinois? His talent and ability is obviously heads and tails above all others.
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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/22/2021 2:32:35 AM 
JSF wrote:
I'm on the record saying I don't think he's a bad coach, he's just a coach whose time has passed. Grew up on the East Coast at a time when physical, ground-and-pound basketball was the trend. And that's largely his approach. It just happens basketball is a perimeter game now.


That style you are talking about with the physical play I can remember when it was huge in the 90's in the NBA. 80's were high scoring affairs in the NBA with pure shooters but for 20 foot jump shots. One three point specialist per team. The Detroit Pistons started out as a high scoring team but they realized they could mix in defense when they drafted Rodman and they put physical basketball on the map.

Pitino used that physical model to turn around Kentucky until he could get the blue chip guys in place. The strategy is most valuable when you don't have the athletes. JC might be running it for that reason because he thinks its his only chance at competing. In the perimeter era brilliant defense within the 3pt arc isn't going to do necessarily anything outside of it.

Its weird to think of a coach who's finished at only 56 but for certain types of coaches it can apply. TOS retired out at 56 from Bryant. He chose job security over pay.


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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/22/2021 9:31:27 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Can't wait to read the 281st edition of "Bobcat Attack argues about Jim Christian and if he should be vilified in Ohio history or not."


You mean the 280 previous editions since 2013 didn't cover all the angles adequately? ;-)
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Hawaiian Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/22/2021 4:09:05 PM 
The best thing about the Jim Christian era was him wearing the green turtle neck for the Miami games. Always thought it was a class act salute to Charlie Coles.

I am too lazy to find it but isn't Walt on record for having regret for not showing up to the Denver game. Something about the whole team only wanted to play in the NCAA? As for the 2013 MAC championship game, when things got tough, that team didn't trust JC and gave up.

I will never understand why Groce knowing what he had returning and what he had coming in (Caris LeVert). If Groce had a mulligan I think he would have stayed one more year and not taken the 5th or 6th best job in the Big Ten. Although there were not too many P5 job openings after the 2013 season (UCLA, USC, Texas Tech, Minnesota, Northwestern and Rutgers). One of those jobs is clearly better than Illinois.

The enigma of the 12-13 season will always be debated. On the surface the results were great but the what ifs are just too fascinating not to debate.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/22/2021 4:14:54 PM 
Hawaiian Bobcat wrote:
The best thing about the Jim Christian era was him wearing the green turtle neck for the Miami games. Always thought it was a class act salute to Charlie Coles.

I am too lazy to find it but isn't Walt on record for having regret for not showing up to the Denver game. Something about the whole team only wanted to play in the NCAA? As for the 2013 MAC championship game, when things got tough, that team didn't trust JC and gave up.

I will never understand why Groce knowing what he had returning and what he had coming in (Caris LeVert). If Groce had a mulligan I think he would have stayed one more year and not taken the 5th or 6th best job in the Big Ten. Although there were not too many P5 job openings after the 2013 season (UCLA, USC, Texas Tech, Minnesota, Northwestern and Rutgers). One of those jobs is clearly better than Illinois.

The enigma of the 12-13 season will always be debated. On the surface the results were great but the what ifs are just too fascinating not to debate.


Hard to fault Groce. You take the job when it comes. He was paid several million dollars to fail at Illinois, and the end result was a job in the same conference he was in previously with a similar salary.

Maybe things would have been different at Minnesota or Northwestern, but I feel like the Illinois job was pretty ideal for him. He recruited Chicago well, could tap into the same recruiting network that he'd built at Ohio State, had a strong budget, etc. It's the sort of job you've got to take while you've got the chance.

It's really easy to imagine a world where LeVert joins, we go back to the Sweet 16, and Groce has his pick of jobs. It's equally easy -- and more statistically likely -- that Groce comes back, we lost in the MAC tournament, and his prospects are worse.
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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/22/2021 10:22:33 PM 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:
Hawaiian Bobcat wrote:
The best thing about the Jim Christian era was him wearing the green turtle neck for the Miami games. Always thought it was a class act salute to Charlie Coles.

I am too lazy to find it but isn't Walt on record for having regret for not showing up to the Denver game. Something about the whole team only wanted to play in the NCAA? As for the 2013 MAC championship game, when things got tough, that team didn't trust JC and gave up.

I will never understand why Groce knowing what he had returning and what he had coming in (Caris LeVert). If Groce had a mulligan I think he would have stayed one more year and not taken the 5th or 6th best job in the Big Ten. Although there were not too many P5 job openings after the 2013 season (UCLA, USC, Texas Tech, Minnesota, Northwestern and Rutgers). One of those jobs is clearly better than Illinois.

The enigma of the 12-13 season will always be debated. On the surface the results were great but the what ifs are just too fascinating not to debate.


Hard to fault Groce. You take the job when it comes. He was paid several million dollars to fail at Illinois, and the end result was a job in the same conference he was in previously with a similar salary.


Groce started at Ohio making $250k then bumped to $325k after his first NCAA win. Akron is paying him twice that.


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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/23/2021 9:28:49 AM 
Hawaiian Bobcat wrote:
I will never understand why Groce knowing what he had returning and what he had coming in (Caris LeVert). If Groce had a mulligan I think he would have stayed one more year and not taken the 5th or 6th best job in the Big Ten. Although there were not too many P5 job openings after the 2013 season (UCLA, USC, Texas Tech, Minnesota, Northwestern and Rutgers). One of those jobs is clearly better than Illinois.


There's just too much you can't predict. If he stayed at Ohio, he still could have just as easily had an NIT season or worse. When you're a MAC program, it just takes one game. Then there's less interest in him as a head coach elsewhere.
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Hawaiian Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/23/2021 2:37:00 PM 
UpSan Bobcat wrote:
Hawaiian Bobcat wrote:
I will never understand why Groce knowing what he had returning and what he had coming in (Caris LeVert). If Groce had a mulligan I think he would have stayed one more year and not taken the 5th or 6th best job in the Big Ten. Although there were not too many P5 job openings after the 2013 season (UCLA, USC, Texas Tech, Minnesota, Northwestern and Rutgers). One of those jobs is clearly better than Illinois.


There's just too much you can't predict. If he stayed at Ohio, he still could have just as easily had an NIT season or worse. When you're a MAC program, it just takes one game. Then there's less interest in him as a head coach elsewhere.


I understand the point but since it was a mess at Illinois in hindsight I believe Groce knowing what he had would do it differently. I have in my career turned down more money because I knew it wasn't a good fit for me. I have also taken a position solely based on money and I did end up regretting it. The more money is a tired argument. Any coach believes he can win anywhere, the chemistry the team and Groce had was undeniable. That is why the 2012-13 team is so debatable. That is why nobody liked Christian because he didn't capitalize as much as we wanted with that very special group. Bobcatattack also debates it for 281 times because one ingredient was missing. Now even more so then at the time because we know Groce's results at Illinois was not spectacular. The key word in my initial post is mulligan. Groce after knowing his results at Illinois may have taken the green pill instead. Before taking the Illinois job if someone told him if you take this job you'll be coaching at AKRON in 6 years, he MAY have reconsidered. We'll never know.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/23/2021 4:22:37 PM 
Coaches operate under a modified Peter Principle. While the rest of us rise to our level of incompetence, coaches rise to their incompetence level, then are knocked down a peg.


We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

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IceCat76
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/25/2021 1:40:00 PM 
In case you might have an interest here is a good article about what the next BC coach faces.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/02/25/sports/boston-coll...
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J.B.Hoy
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/25/2021 2:15:44 PM 
Quote:

Groce started at Ohio making $250k then bumped to $325k after his first NCAA win. Akron is paying him twice that.


I have a hard time buying the whole, “anyone would have gone to Illinois for that money” – “family setup forever… blah blah blah”.

Anyone with an ounce of fiscal insight can make $325K work very well in Athens, Ohio. Coaches take these jobs because of ego and desire to be a
Krzyzewski someday.

I could be wrong. Maybe it is all about money. For me, quality of life and less stress is much more important than money. See Geography degree from Ohio for reference.

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/25/2021 3:29:35 PM 
It's easy to say it's not about the money until they put seven figures in front of you. You also get the reputation and prestige that comes with coaching in a major conference.


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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/25/2021 4:15:40 PM 
J.B.Hoy wrote:
Quote:

Groce started at Ohio making $250k then bumped to $325k after his first NCAA win. Akron is paying him twice that.


I have a hard time buying the whole, “anyone would have gone to Illinois for that money” – “family setup forever… blah blah blah”.

Anyone with an ounce of fiscal insight can make $325K work very well in Athens, Ohio. Coaches take these jobs because of ego and desire to be a
Krzyzewski someday.

I could be wrong. Maybe it is all about money. For me, quality of life and less stress is much more important than money. See Geography degree from Ohio for reference.



$1M in Urbana-Champaign works a even better than $325K in Athens. Illinois is no blue blood, but that's a program that can get to the Final Four. It would be insane not to take that opportunity.
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/25/2021 5:41:36 PM 
J.B.Hoy wrote:
Quote:

Groce started at Ohio making $250k then bumped to $325k after his first NCAA win. Akron is paying him twice that.


I have a hard time buying the whole, “anyone would have gone to Illinois for that money” – “family setup forever… blah blah blah”.

Anyone with an ounce of fiscal insight can make $325K work very well in Athens, Ohio. Coaches take these jobs because of ego and desire to be a
Krzyzewski someday.

I could be wrong. Maybe it is all about money. For me, quality of life and less stress is much more important than money. See Geography degree from Ohio for reference.



The money's not all of it but it's a big part of it. But the other factors are that almost everything else is easier at the larger schools. The competition is definitely not easier but even that has it's benefits come selection Sunday. But you have better facilities, your assistants get better salaries and working conditions. And this may be hard to believe but Athens as a final destination may not be optimum for everyone no matter how well you can make your salary work. But you are correct, ego does play a large part into the decisions because I'm pretty sure almost every coach out there thinks he can be successful no matter where he goes. Contrary to what several people have claimed Illinois is a very good college basketball job. It may not be on the level of what their fanbase thinks it is but it is definitely in a different world than Ohio. You won't see many potential conference POTY candidates going the grad transfer route away from Illinois.

How many MAC coaches that have grasped at the brass ring haven't landed safely even if they failed in doing so?

Groce - Akron
Christian - Us and BC
Heath - USF
McCallum - Detroit
Nee - Duquesne

I can't think offhand of other coaches that have left for bigger jobs other than Dakich's WVU disaster.
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longtiimelurker
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/25/2021 6:12:02 PM 
shabamon wrote:
J.B.Hoy wrote:
[QUOTE]
Groce started at Ohio making $250k then bumped to $325k after his first NCAA win. Akron is paying him twice that.


I have a hard time buying the whole, “anyone would have gone to Illinois for that money” – “family setup forever… blah blah blah”.

Anyone with an ounce of fiscal insight can make $325K work very well in Athens, Ohio. Coaches take these jobs because of ego and desire to be a
Krzyzewski someday.

I could be wrong. Maybe it is all about money. For me, quality of life and less stress is much more important than money. See Geography degree from Ohio for reference.



$1M in Urbana-Champaign works a even better than $325K in Athens. Illinois is no blue blood, but that's a program that can get to the Final Four. It would be insane not to take that opportunity. [/QUOTEI)

It would be interesting to scare up that discussion of Bobcat fans raising money and the amount needed to keep Groce here while every one was trying to track flights to Champaign. He has done well financially even if it means ultimately ending up and living in Akron.

From the outside it is interesting to see where Groce ended up compared to his friends and family after we told him he could not hire his brother Travis Steele to fill out the staff alongside his college running mate Holtmann. Both are doing well financially and professionally where they have been and are presently. I think when all is said and done both will end up with more rewarding careers and finances. I am with the thought about fit more than money. That makes more sense to find a place like a Gonzaga or Belmont or even Dayton under Donoher where you can be successful and develop athletes both skill wise and as humans over the long haul. Seems that the stories out of Illinois and the government mismanagement would call into question whether the 1M would be even better than that lesser amount in Athens. I am not sure I would tell those same folks bailing out their crooked politicians that they are not a Blue Blood. Every Illinois fan I have ever met thinks their rivals are Kansas, Kentucky and North Carolina and can't quite understand why Chicago kids choose Duke over U of I.

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: TOS to Boston College?
   Posted: 2/25/2021 6:43:29 PM 
He probably lives in Bath, where a lot of local pros also live.


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