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Topic: RE: Transfer Portal

Topic: RE: Transfer Portal

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 3,280

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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 2:53:01 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

But, the "actions" in those cases seem to invovle being paid for their "advertising or sales beneift," not for performing a particular task.

Isn't signing an autograph a task? Or giving a little talk about the opening of a new car dealership? What's the difference between those things and doing work in support of a non profit? And don't you think the the entire reason those charities want to be associated with these players is for the advertising and benefit to their organizations?

I'm not seeing the distinction you're drawing.

OhioCatFan wrote:

I don't think the Department of Labor would disagree, thought I'm not sure their definition, whatever it is, will really be all that salient to any future legal challenges.

The Department of Labor does disagree, based on what Billy's already explained. Players with NIL deals are issued a 1099, and the DOL enforces worker classification decisions. You're implying this is a job, which implies that the charity in question is an employer. If the DOL felt that was the case, the players would be issued W2s.

Truthfully man, I don't follow you here even a little bit. You've been referencing the "slippery slope" of the NIL for the last few months, and I think you're just inclined to see it wherever you look, and I'm having a ton of trouble understanding what distinction you're trying to draw here.

It's really pretty simple:

Dr. Pepper paid Bryce Young to be in a commercial because they wanted him associated with their brand because he's a very famous football player in the country's best conference. They're doing it to sell more Dr. Pepper.

A non-profit is paying players at Texas to do very public appearances in the form of community service because they want their non-profit associated with Texas football. They're doing so because it's going to increase their fundraising performance.

What's your take? That a non-profit is illegally funneling money to college football players and making them sweep floors? Is your instinct that 1) Non-profit accounting makes that easy to do? and 2) college football players are best used by non-profits to sweep floors?

cc-cat
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Location: matthews, NC
Post Count: 3,820

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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 2:58:22 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Showing up for a "job" at a homeless shelter and placing cans of food on a shelves and sweeping the floor, etc., is not being paid for their NIL but for a job that's being performed.

Is this what they are doing? Or is this a scenario you are projecting?

If it is what they are doing then....

"Come out to the Devens Food Shelter on Friday afternoon and help QB Sam Benchwarmer stock food cans for the needy. The Devens Food Shelter supports families in the Devens County region and can always use you financial and personal support. Go Team!!!"

footnote: Sam Benchwarmer does not need your financial assistance because his promotion and involvement with the Devens Food Shelter is part of an NIL agreement.

OhioCatFan
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Location: Athens, OH
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 3:06:21 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Being paid for community service makes it a job. There are a lot of dicey spliting of hairs going here. And, as a result, I do expect legal challenges down the line. This a far cry from the NIL was originally described.

I don't follow your logic.

Why are making set, scheduled appearances necessarily "a job"? Is it a job when a celebrity makes an appearance at ComicCon? Are they then an employee of ComicCon? What about when an athlete shows up at a car dealership for an event?

If you are being paid for doing some specific action, like the community service mentioned above, you are being paid for doing a job. I don't know about the other kinds of activies you cite. If they are being paid soley because the entity mentioned is getting some advertising or sales benefit because of their mere presence, I suppose it fits under a broad definition of NIL.

The other examples I cited are examples of people who are asked to do work at an event because of their celebrity, which is effectively a synonym for Name, Image, and likeness.

All of those things are actions, and "getting paid to do some specific action" is not how the department of labor determines employment. It's a much more thorough assessment. Why do you think this is different?

But, the "actions" in those cases seem to invovle being paid for their "advertising or sales beneift," not for performing a particular task. Showing up for a "job" at a homeless shelter and placing cans of food on shelves and sweeping the floor, etc., is not being paid for their NIL but for a job that's being performed. These are not the same thing. I don't think the Department of Labor would disagree, though I'm not sure their definition, whatever it is, will really be all that salient to any future legal challenges.

Why don�t you file a complaint then? Help these poor kids out and be their advocate to right the wrongs that these attorneys who are setting these deals up are obviously not up on the law.

It's not the kids that are being wronged, it's the whole system. NIL is becoming, it appears, almost any type of payment for almost anything. As originally construed it was a rather tight definition that was supposed protect universities from the charge that they were direclty paying athletes for work. They were to be paid for the use of their name, image and likeness. While showing up for job and being paid for it is not a direct payment by the university, it is also not a payment for NIL. If individual states have redefined NIL in a way that includes this type of behavior, I think this could eventually lead to charges that universities are indirectly paying players, and are hence runing a pro football operation that its inconsistent with their educaitonal mission. Also, that different states are defining NIL differently is also a potential problem.

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 3:09:33 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

It's not the kids that are being wronged, it's the whole system. NIL is becoming, it appears, almost any type of payment for almost anything.

You can't actually explain why you think this. Yet you've reached the conclusion already.

You're unable to draw a distinction between the two cases. I truly don't know what you're so concerned about here, aside from the fact that you decided the NIL would be a "slippery slope" when it was launched and now that's self-fulfilling for you.

The onus is sort of on you to describe what the issue is here, and your explanation doesn't make sense.

cc-cat
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 3:13:26 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

As originally construed it was a rather tight definition that was supposed protect universities from the charge that they were directly paying athletes for work. They were to be paid for the use of their name, image and likeness. While showing up for job and being paid for it is not a direct payment by the university, it is also not a payment for NIL.

"Come out to the Devens Food Shelter on Friday afternoon and help QB Sam Benchwarmer stock food cans for the needy. The Devens Food Shelter supports families in the Devens County region and can always use you financial and personal support. Go Team!!!"

footnote: Sam Benchwarmer does not need your financial assistance because his promotion and involvement with the Devens Food Shelter is part of an NIL agreement.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 3:16:54 PM

cc-cat wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Showing up for a "job" at a homeless shelter and placing cans of food on shelves and sweeping the floor, etc., is not being paid for their NIL but for a job that's being performed.

The scenario that you paint, I think, would be covered by NIL. From what I've read this is not always that case. Some of these jobs are being done without that kind of publicity, or an attempt to actually use the the players NIL. Now, if they run this "help QB Benchwarmer" promo once and then he continues to come to the Devens Food Shelter many other days by himself and he's still getting paid, I'm not sure that it's still a NIL operation. [Most Food Shelters have very few paid employees, and run almost exclusively with volunteer labor.]

OhioCatFan
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 3:19:54 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

But, the "actions" in those cases seem to invovle being paid for their "advertising or sales beneift," not for performing a particular task.

OhioCatFan wrote:

I don't think the Department of Labor would disagree, thought I'm not sure their definition, whatever it is, will really be all that salient to any future legal challenges.

See my answers to BTC and cc-cat. I wrote them while you were writing this reply. I think my answers to them cover much the same ground.

cc-cat
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 3:24:48 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

From what I've read this is not always that case. Some of these jobs are being done without that kind of publicity, or an attempt to actually use the the players NIL. Now, if they run this "help QB Benchwarmer" promo once and then he continues to come to the Devens Food Shelter many other days by himself and he's still getting paid, I'm not sure that it's still a NIL operation. [Most Food Shelters have very few paid employees, and run almost exclusively with volunteer labor.]

You state that you have heard differently, You'll need to share specifically what you have heard or read. And appreciate that even a post on Facebook or a flyer in the window counts as a "promotion." And if he continues to show up, I can easily place it under NIL. And remember, he is not getting paid to show up, he's getting paid to have his name associated with the shelter. Again, I'll wait for an example where the player is actually punching the clock at work. No one is denying it is all a game, but this game is really easy to make legal.

Last Edited: 12/20/2022 3:30:23 PM by cc-cat

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 3:29:50 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

See my answers to BTC and cc-cat. I wrote them while you were writing this reply. I think my answers to them cover much the same ground.

I don't think your answers are particularly compelling or clear, and I think you're missing a very obvious explanation because you don't want to see it.

In your response to cc-cat, you said "From what I have read this is not always the case." Can you share a link to what you're talking about? Your explanations aren't very clear and this feels super cut and dry to me.

Further, your response doesn't actually explain what you think is happening here. As I asked -- which wasn't even remotely covered in your response to others -- what do you think is happening?

Do you think non-profits are being used to illegally funnel money to players through the guise of NIL payments? Do you think non-profit accounting makes that possible? And if that's the purpose here -- why in god's name would they do it when instead of asking somebody to "sweep the floors" (citation needed) they could just have them show up and cut a ribbon or whatever and be totally onsides with the law?

You're insisting that what's happening here isn't right, but you're not even able to explain the logic behind what you say is happening.

rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 3:53:41 PM

I can't speak to all schools, but Rutgers is really pushing the NIL situation.

There was an article on nj.com about their NIL "collective's" (Knights of the Raritan ) fund raising campaign.

They want to raise $1 million dollars in 30 days to be used to promote NIL "opportunities " for students in all sports ,to receive NIL money.

They also talk about how Rutgers can use NIL opportunities and funds donated to this campaign to entice transfers, through the transfer portal.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 5:01:03 PM

OCF were you under the opinion that NIL was simply going to pay athletes to put their face on a billboard or posters? That appearances, speaking engagements, etc were not going to be a part of it, then you will have been very wrong.

BillyTheCat
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 5:05:02 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

But, the "actions" in those cases seem to invovle being paid for their "advertising or sales beneift," not for performing a particular task.

OhioCatFan wrote:

I don't think the Department of Labor would disagree, thought I'm not sure their definition, whatever it is, will really be all that salient to any future legal challenges.

See my answers to BTC and cc-cat. I wrote them while you were writing this reply. I think my answers to them cover much the same ground.

I think you are delusional. 🤪

cc-cat
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 5:31:18 PM

BillyTheCat wrote:

Indeed. listen to sports radio. they�ll have an athlete as a call in guest. talk about their career. who they think is going to win the big game and then the host ask, �so i understand you are involved with xyz supplements. tell me what they are doing?�

I guess some people really think Emmitt Smith just felt compelled to call into a radio station to talk sports.

bobcatsquared
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 7:48:46 PM

Dang it, cc-cat. . . I check out this thread hoping to get news on the comings and goings happening in the portal. And all I get is a back-and-forth about NIL involving BLSS, OCF, BTC and you. This is the modus operandi of BLSS and OCF, and to a lesser extent BTC. And we're all used to that. But now you're stringing this along too? C'mon.

Let's get back to portal news in this thread. The NIL debate has been beaten to death, no?.

cc-cat
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 8:18:49 PM

I'm sorry. I'll stop

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrijF...

OhioCatFan
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/20/2022 9:52:22 PM

cc-cat wrote:

I'm sorry. I'll stop

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrijF...

#mestoptoo

rpbobcat
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/21/2022 6:50:12 AM

Interesting article in today's The Record (NIL Money A Wrinkle In Recruiting) by Steve Megaree of the A.P.

I didn't see it on Muckrack.

But if you Google the title, its all over.

rpbobcat
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/21/2022 9:26:55 AM

There's another article on http://www.northjersey.com by Darren Cooper about
how the Transfer Portal has taken a lot of the excitement out of "Signing Day".

Last Edited: 12/21/2022 9:27:43 AM by rpbobcat

RufusCat09
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/21/2022 6:34:32 PM

2 Former Bobcats signed with FCS teams

Tyler Mullins --> UT Martin
Jamison Collier --> East Tennessee State

mf279801
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/21/2022 11:51:54 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Universities are not paying players, directly or indirectly: Independent businesses are paying players, corporations (non-profit or for-profit) are paying players, among others. Are some of these organizations explicitly made up of people who want to help the university's athletics? Yes, and that doesn't change the fact that money is not moving from the university to the athlete.

In what way is running a professional football operation any more or less consistent with A STATE OWNED INSTITUTION'S mission [i.e. educational mission] than is:

-owning/operating sprawling healthcare operations that--for the most part--employ physicians, nurses, and other professionals who are solely or almost completely involved in patient care (of non-students) and have no meaningful interaction with students?

-operating large housing and dining operations (in some cases even doing so at a net gain)?

-organizing intercollegiate athletic events for which an admissions fee is charged? Surely any fitness or character based benefits could be achieved via intermural athletics, right?

OhioCatFan
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/22/2022 10:55:08 AM

mf279801 wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Well, I said that I would stop, but I'll make one more post before I implement #mestoptoo.

I realize that these are separate organizations providing NIL money. However, there was an interesting Ohio Supreme Court ruling several years ago that the University of Toledo Foundation was not a private organization and was, in essence, a part of the university and subject all the open records laws to which the university was subject. Those organizations specifically setup to raise NIL money certainly could at some point be considered no more than an arm of the university in terms of the law. This, of course, now applies to the foundations that all state university's in Ohio have set up.

Providing health care for the citizenry and at the same time providing medical education for the medical students, interns and residents seems to fit in with the essential purposes of an institution of higher education.

Providing housing for students seems to fit as well. Non-profit institutions are allowed to make money as long as it is applied in a way that's consistent with its central mission.

Intercollegiate athletics, as it has come to be structured, is more questionable. A D3 setup where you are not giving out athletic scholarships might actually be consistent with an educational institution's mission. But, in truth, even that is questionable. The original roots of inter-collegiate athletics where the students hired the coach, who was usually a graduate student, bought their own uniforms, and paid for transportation to away games, is probably the only really viable model for inter-collegiate athletics in a college setting. We've strayed away from that model and it's distorted the whole educational landscape. What NIL has done, IMHO, is to make a reductio ad absurdum argument against the whole current system.

In time, I think, the whole structure of ICA will crumble. I believe the only question is how long it will take.

#menowreallystoptoo

Kinggeorge4
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/22/2022 12:04:12 PM

Shane Hooks is back in portal land again.

GO BOBCATS
GEORGE

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/22/2022 12:06:45 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

mf279801 wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Personally, I think it's silly to stop discussing this because some random poster is trying to be the thread police and can't see the connection between the transfer portal and a massive new change to college sports that undoubtedly impacts the goings on in the transfer portal.

It's relevant to the discussion and if somebody wants news on the transfer portal they should go to a news site, not a discussion board.

bobcatsquared
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/22/2022 6:51:38 PM

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:

It's relevant to the discussion and if somebody wants news on the transfer portal they should go to a news site, not a discussion board.

Now who's being the thread police? And notice this reply avoids the unnecessary quote boxes.

Regardless, thanks for the effort OCF (although short-lived) and cc-cat.

Last Edited: 12/22/2022 7:02:34 PM by bobcatsquared

Ted Thompson
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RE: Transfer Portal

Posted: 12/22/2022 8:58:59 PM

I am in the portal!!!!! https://t.co/EbPtiuFYOm
— SHANE �Hollywood� HOOKS (@shanehooks6) December 22, 2022

Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

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