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Topic:  RE: The continued enrollment decline

Topic:  RE: The continued enrollment decline
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/16/2021 11:41:30 AM 
Pataskala wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Going back to OCF's point, Miami had something in 1970 that OU did not - graduation. 70 - 71 marked the high water mark in erollment with the low in 75 - 76.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/factbook/FACTENRL_HIST.HTML



I wonder how much the riots after the Kent shootings had to do with that. Ohio closed down for the rest of the spring after our riot, while Fiami shut down for only ten days after theirs. Other schools shut down for the spring as well, but the perception might've been that Fiami handled the situation better. The riot might've caused some parents and high school students to think twice about Ohio. I know my parents were concerned about me going back in the fall, but I went anyway.


Really good point. I think the situation wasn't necessarily that Miami handled it better but rather they had a much smaller percentage of students protesting against the war. It was a much more manageable situation for them than for us or OSU. And I think it's logical to assume that image as the calm conservative campus was reinforced throughout the state and like began to attract like, particularly as youth became more conservative in the late 70s and 80s. I went to college in the mid to late 80's, and by then, Miami's image really did live up to the stereotype. If you weren't a preppy, Greek business major from an upper middle class family, you stuck out like a sore thumb there.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/16/2021 7:28:25 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Going back to OCF's point, Miami had something in 1970 that OU did not - graduation. 70 - 71 marked the high water mark in erollment with the low in 75 - 76.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/factbook/FACTENRL_HIST.HTML



I wonder how much the riots after the Kent shootings had to do with that. Ohio closed down for the rest of the spring after our riot, while Fiami shut down for only ten days after theirs. Other schools shut down for the spring as well, but the perception might've been that Fiami handled the situation better. The riot might've caused some parents and high school students to think twice about Ohio. I know my parents were concerned about me going back in the fall, but I went anyway.


That's what I was insinutating with the what Miami had and what we didn't because of the riots here after Kent State. It took Kent many years to recover from that but as the opinions changed and the blame became that of the state, going to Kent was no longer a problem.

Continuing with this thread though, I worked with three OU seniors today as part of a mulching project here in Athens. We spent a couple hours together talking about a variety of topics. All three are about to graduate and plan to pursue professional degrees in health related fields. Their individual and collective opinions about the current state of affairs was telling and best summed up by one of the young men who wants to become a PA. He said "if I had a child right now I don't think I'd send them to OU." Telling and troubling.

Last Edited: 4/17/2021 11:02:27 AM by Alan Swank

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/16/2021 11:14:31 PM 
Pardon my rambling stream of conscience thinking, but there are a few things I would like to address in no particular order. Alan, Billy, OCF, myself and others have talked a great deal about the the demographic situation and marketing needed to stop the bleeding. As much as the the top leadership doesn't impress me, my contact with some of the deans and assistant deans has never been better. I realize I am a grown man now, but it seems to me that in the 80s and 90s some of these same indivuals, especially in some of the more vaunted colleges within our beloved Alma mater were far from accessible.

My work in high schools tell me that students have a pretty good opinion of the campus and all it has to offer. Our Medical school really is generating positive feedback. I would say as far as state schools, besides us I hear the usual admiration for Miami. It seems to me that many students (and their parents) have a love-hate relationship with Ohio State, especially due to the branch campus admission roundabout, which is confusing to say the least. Cincinnati seems to be coming on like gangbusters in so many ways with their marketing, apprenticeship programs etc. I know Bowling Green has been getting a lot of love, but I just don't sense it compared to what I hear about UC. I get the feeling that Akron is in a world of hurt, I just don't hear any students or their parents talking about talking Zip Nation, whereas a few years back, I thought they might be headed for a trunaround. Just not hearing anything good.

As far as private schools, besides the Ohio 5, Dayton sure gets a lot of love and surprising to me are places like Findlay who are really tailoring their programs to bring certain programs together like Equestrian and Veterinarian programs. It may be a bit different, but the experts tell me that combining certain unique fields can really grow your numbers if you are a small school.

We have a good vibe with many students, but we just need to accentuate what we do well, because while the Medical School is bringing us a good deal of positive ink, the demise of the old Journalism world (our one time specialty) is probably never going to be what it once was, though I am sure the well paid faculty members would beg to differ. As strange as it may sound, if I were President Nellis I would send a team to Dayton, Cincinnati and even Findlay and try to emulate some of the good things they are accomplishing.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/17/2021 9:56:45 AM 
I have a hard time understanding the dynamic in which our med school would have much influence on high school kids and their parents choosing a college.

The love-hate relationship towards OSU though will certainly skew more towards hate if it is true that they are going to shrink the size of their freshman classes. OTOH, if kids and their parents hate you only because you're their first choice but you can't get in, that's not necessarily a bad place to be. Let OSU shrink. Let them go to the next level in selectivity. It helps OU if there are a thousand well qualified Ohio kids released out into the system to compete for.

It's hard to discuss Ohio's position and future within the state system without recognizing the impact of the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Having worked intimately on higher ed issues in the state senate, I'm as guilty of that as anyone. That being said, they shouldn't be the primary focus of the administration. The administration should be focused on getting our own house in order and developing a strategic plan for us to compete with Cincinnati and Miami for Ohio kids while upping our out of state recruiting.

Last Edited: 4/17/2021 10:20:07 AM by OUPride

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/17/2021 2:44:34 PM 
OU Pride, my guess is that a medical school carries a great deal of clout with students and their parents. Perhaps they think if the medical school is on the rise, it bodes well for the rest of the university.

Demographics have always been of interest to me, though my advanced math skills or lack thereof don't qualify me to draw up actuarial tables for future numeric tables, considering our region and nation's declining birth rate. This is why I brought up Cincinnati, Dayton and Findlay; three universities doing well with different sizes and challenges. In my previous post, I listed why that might be the case for each university. It would seem to me that we need to figure out what they have done and craft our own program. We are miles ahead of places like Akron. We need to keep in that way. This is why I suggested that President Nellis pick a team of qualified individuals to figure out what to do, drawing from those three successful universities, as well as others.

Last Edited: 4/17/2021 2:46:13 PM by cbus cat fan

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longtiimelurker
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/18/2021 9:13:38 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
OU Pride, my guess is that a medical school carries a great deal of clout with students and their parents. Perhaps they think if the medical school is on the rise, it bodes well for the rest of the university.



One of my Ohio State friends summed it up when I was talking about the school out on the Northwest Side. He said "it's a DO school, not real doctors like at THE (his emphasis) Ohio State University". I do not know if parents and students feel the same way but I have found that his words stayed with me these past few years.
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OUs LONG Driver
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/18/2021 10:49:36 AM 
longtiimelurker wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
OU Pride, my guess is that a medical school carries a great deal of clout with students and their parents. Perhaps they think if the medical school is on the rise, it bodes well for the rest of the university.



One of my Ohio State friends summed it up when I was talking about the school out on the Northwest Side. He said "it's a DO school, not real doctors like at THE (his emphasis) Ohio State University". I do not know if parents and students feel the same way but I have found that his words stayed with me these past few years.


This thinking still persists for sure and probably most prevalent within the medical community. The average Joe thinks about a doctor as a doctor not a MD or a DO. My wife is a DO so I've heard this discussed quite a bit. From the experiences she's been through applying from medical school to residency and then on to fellowship it seems when there are many highly qualified (almost all are at this level) the DO vs MD is a tiebreaker to eliminate candidates. The old guard in the most prestigious programs in the country are almost exclusively MD. They tend to pursue only MDs for their residency and fellowship programs which perpetuates this thought that MD is superior to DO. We were told more than one time that certain programs would not consider a DO.

As the body dummy for a lot of weird Year 1 DO stuff I might tend to believe DOs start a little behind as they focus some time on stuff that looks more like Chiropractic care than traditional medicine but as soon as that's over there is no difference in training and in some cases the testing.

DOs have the option to take a different test than MDs when finishing residency I believe, but most that plan to specialize further take the MD test knowing they will need it to help their case in gaining entry to fellowship. I forget what that's called but it is not the test for becoming Board Certified. If your physician is board certified they had to all pass the same test whether DO or MD so to me that is the point where this debate is moot. There is a written component followed typically a year down the road by an oral exam in front of a panel. If they pass both they are then board certified. Those that specialize can choose to pursue being double board certified if they complete Fellowship which is the same process but with the tests relating to the sub specialty. The oral exams require collecting case data and defending decisions made in medical care along their course of training or current work.

It's a long route, took my wife from graduating undergrad at OU in 2007 until finishing fellowship at the NIH in 2020 and she's still working on becoming double board certified. She had 2 "gap" years after not matching to a program for fellowship but kept at it. It is an insane amount of work to get to that level so if you have a Board certified doctor you can feel pretty good about it whether DO or MD. There are lots of doctors who are not board certified both DO & MD. Doesn't mean they are a bad doctor but if I had to choose I would always pick board certified over not. Docs under 40 may still be working towards it though.

I've learned way too much about this over the years.





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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/18/2021 1:01:22 PM 
OUs LONG Driver wrote:
longtiimelurker wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
OU Pride, my guess is that a medical school carries a great deal of clout with students and their parents. Perhaps they think if the medical school is on the rise, it bodes well for the rest of the university.



One of my Ohio State friends summed it up when I was talking about the school out on the Northwest Side. He said "it's a DO school, not real doctors like at THE (his emphasis) Ohio State University". I do not know if parents and students feel the same way but I have found that his words stayed with me these past few years.


This thinking still persists for sure and probably most prevalent within the medical community. The average Joe thinks about a doctor as a doctor not a MD or a DO. My wife is a DO so I've heard this discussed quite a bit. From the experiences she's been through applying from medical school to residency and then on to fellowship it seems when there are many highly qualified (almost all are at this level) the DO vs MD is a tiebreaker to eliminate candidates. The old guard in the most prestigious programs in the country are almost exclusively MD. They tend to pursue only MDs for their residency and fellowship programs which perpetuates this thought that MD is superior to DO. We were told more than one time that certain programs would not consider a DO.

As the body dummy for a lot of weird Year 1 DO stuff I might tend to believe DOs start a little behind as they focus some time on stuff that looks more like Chiropractic care than traditional medicine but as soon as that's over there is no difference in training and in some cases the testing.

DOs have the option to take a different test than MDs when finishing residency I believe, but most that plan to specialize further take the MD test knowing they will need it to help their case in gaining entry to fellowship. I forget what that's called but it is not the test for becoming Board Certified. If your physician is board certified they had to all pass the same test whether DO or MD so to me that is the point where this debate is moot. There is a written component followed typically a year down the road by an oral exam in front of a panel. If they pass both they are then board certified. Those that specialize can choose to pursue being double board certified if they complete Fellowship which is the same process but with the tests relating to the sub specialty. The oral exams require collecting case data and defending decisions made in medical care along their course of training or current work.

It's a long route, took my wife from graduating undergrad at OU in 2007 until finishing fellowship at the NIH in 2020 and she's still working on becoming double board certified. She had 2 "gap" years after not matching to a program for fellowship but kept at it. It is an insane amount of work to get to that level so if you have a Board certified doctor you can feel pretty good about it whether DO or MD. There are lots of doctors who are not board certified both DO & MD. Doesn't mean they are a bad doctor but if I had to choose I would always pick board certified over not. Docs under 40 may still be working towards it though.

I've learned way too much about this over the years.



Intereresting points, I will say this though. In the past, a childhood friend of mine who is a physician would roll his eyes when I mentioned our medical school. The changed about 10 years ago when he began to work with some of our graduates and the medical school began an affiliation with the Cleveland Clinic. Now, he has a couple of college age children who in the next couple of years will begin to apply to medical schools. When I asked him what if his kids would apply to our medical school? He said, "I hope they do, great school, good reputation."

Last Edited: 4/18/2021 1:16:06 PM by cbus cat fan

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/18/2021 11:34:22 PM 
CBUS, LongDriver -- Good points and good information. I spent about 30 years as the director of communication at what is now OU-HCOM, so I'm well aware of the struggles of D.O.s to gain the recognition that they deserve. I've written extensively on the history of osteopathic medicine. For some background I can refer you to an article I wrote back in 1977 that won the AOA national medical journalism award that year; you can read it here: https://tinyurl.com/w4ap3zt9 Though somewhat dated today, it is accurate history up to that point, and will help you understand how we got to the current point with two separate medical professions in the United States. When OU-COM was established by the Ohio General Assembly in 1975 it was the tenth osteopathic college in the nation, and only the second at a state university -- the rest were private schools. The first state-supported osteopathic college was at Michigan State University. There are now about 30 D.O. schools with a mixture of private and state control. It has been deemed, as a result, the fastest growing health-care profession. In closing, I will point out that D.O.s have risen to the highest level in federal government with one D.O., now retired, having served many years as the director of one of the National Institutes of Health. He was Murray Goldstein, D.O., who was for many years the director of what was then the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke. [Stroke is now a separate institute.]

Last Edited: 4/18/2021 11:37:08 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/19/2021 1:15:40 AM 
One of the challenges in this discussion is its difficult to get accurate data on the net price when that is affected by a number of different variables. OU has signature awards for students with high ACT scores but apply only if a student is not part of another grant award.

This is off the university website as to the strategy for improving the enrollment.

Quote:
Marketing/enrollment update

Trustees received an update on University enrollment projections, including a discussion about the impact of COVID-19 on enrollment, preliminary Spring 2021 highlights and Fall 2021 projections. University leadership provided a comprehensive overview of active efforts to recruit and retain students, including multiple new visit strategies, such as expansion of COVID-safe in person campus visits through the new “OHIO Pawprint Tour.”

Vice President Candace Boeninger briefed the Trustees on work of the Strategic Enrollment Executive Committee (SEEC) to engage in strategic enrollment planning exercises that will respond to, reflect, and align with other key strategic initiatives.

Vice President Robin Oliver updated Trustees on expanded marketing strategies, such as an increase in targeted yield marketing, a new online undergraduate recruitment campaign, and an investment in layered digital advertising strategies.

https://www.ohio.edu/news/2021/04/ohio-university-board-t...


In the last paragraph they talk about targeted yield marketing. Ohio has a relatively low percentage of admitted students that decide to attend the university.

https://www.collegeevaluator.com/institute/ohio-universit... /

Ohio is at 19% and how does that stack up to in-state?

Toledo 31%
Youngstown St 31%
Kent State 31%
Cincinnati 30%
Ohio State 30%
Bowling Green 27%
Akron 26%
Wright State 25%
Denison 24%
Ohio Northern 22%
Kenyon 21%
Miami 19%
Ohio 19%
Case Western 17%
Dayton 16%
Ohio Wesleyan 14%

From yield rates of those admitted it seems as if the urban public universities faring better with a lower total price with Ohio and Miami competing in the space of the student looking at private colleges where they apply to more to see who gives them the best deal.


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2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/19/2021 1:44:06 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
CBUS, LongDriver -- Good points and good information. I spent about 30 years as the director of communication at what is now OU-HCOM, so I'm well aware of the struggles of D.O.s to gain the recognition that they deserve. I've written extensively on the history of osteopathic medicine. For some background I can refer you to an article I wrote back in 1977 that won the AOA national medical journalism award that year; you can read it here: https://tinyurl.com/w4ap3zt9 Though somewhat dated today, it is accurate history up to that point, and will help you understand how we got to the current point with two separate medical professions in the United States. When OU-COM was established by the Ohio General Assembly in 1975 it was the tenth osteopathic college in the nation, and only the second at a state university -- the rest were private schools. The first state-supported osteopathic college was at Michigan State University. There are now about 30 D.O. schools with a mixture of private and state control. It has been deemed, as a result, the fastest growing health-care profession. In closing, I will point out that D.O.s have risen to the highest level in federal government with one D.O., now retired, having served many years as the director of one of the National Institutes of Health. He was Murray Goldstein, D.O., who was for many years the director of what was then the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke. [Stroke is now a separate institute.]


Great article and no doubt OU-HCOM is a great asset to the state.


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2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/19/2021 2:50:02 AM 
OUPride wrote:
I have a hard time understanding the dynamic in which our med school would have much influence on high school kids and their parents choosing a college.

The love-hate relationship towards OSU though will certainly skew more towards hate if it is true that they are going to shrink the size of their freshman classes. OTOH, if kids and their parents hate you only because you're their first choice but you can't get in, that's not necessarily a bad place to be. Let OSU shrink. Let them go to the next level in selectivity. It helps OU if there are a thousand well qualified Ohio kids released out into the system to compete for.

It's hard to discuss Ohio's position and future within the state system without recognizing the impact of the 800 pound gorilla in the room. Having worked intimately on higher ed issues in the state senate, I'm as guilty of that as anyone. That being said, they shouldn't be the primary focus of the administration. The administration should be focused on getting our own house in order and developing a strategic plan for us to compete with Cincinnati and Miami for Ohio kids while upping our out of state recruiting.


Ohio increased its merit aid with the Ohio Signature Award starting in 2014 and it appeared to pay dividends with larger freshman classes at first. For this past year only 11% of those admitted have accepted a spot so its a dramatic decline in yield that is happening right now.

Colleges are generally in 3 tiers; top, mid and lower tier. Ohio was always from what I can remember in that middle tier. Its a very good mid tier university with a great campus, big university research library and exceptional individual colleges. Marketing the journalism school to a perspective student than Ohio as a whole might be a better choice because its not that you are just going to Ohio but to the Scripps school of journalism.

The prospective student could receive marketing from their college of their choice, a full breakdown on the scholarships available those colleges offer, and an understanding of the student groups and networking opportunities within those colleges. Build a personal connection with the student at the college level.

Ohio has nice facilities across its campus to work with but as you can see with sports the personal connection can go a long way.

Last Edited: 4/19/2021 2:51:00 AM by Club Hyatt


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2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/20/2021 9:36:52 AM 
I think the medical school helps with the overall image of the university. I just don't think it matters quite as much in specifically recruiting undergraduates. When I was younger, people referred to UC as a "Big Ten level medical school attached to a community college." It didn't really do much much to enhance their reputation as an undergraduate college. UC began to improve and attract more and better students only when they specifically focused on increasing the quality and experience of being an undergraduate there.
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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/20/2021 10:40:12 AM 
OUPride wrote:
I think the medical school helps with the overall image of the university. I just don't think it matters quite as much in specifically recruiting undergraduates. When I was younger, people referred to UC as a "Big Ten level medical school attached to a community college." It didn't really do much much to enhance their reputation as an undergraduate college. UC began to improve and attract more and better students only when they specifically focused on increasing the quality and experience of being an undergraduate there.


UC got a lot of press for its basketball team when Bob Huggins was there. Then they joined the Big East at a time when college sports was at its peak.

They had a mandatory 5 year engineering program where students would be placed into a co-op. That's appealing to students because they earn like 20 dollars an hour at those co-ops and lock up job placement after graduation.

UC also has zero rep as a party school compared to Ohio, Miami and Ohio State. Miami of course its focused on greek parties and OSU has the Big Ten label to offset.


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2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/20/2021 11:24:24 AM 
UC's basketball press in the 90s was as much negative (UNLV-East) as positive. I don't think it did a damned thing to move the college forward either, as Huggins was long gone when UC began to move forward as an undergraduate college. While that may have coincided peripherally with their brief stint in the Big East, the real underlying reason was that they got serious about being a quality undergraduate school, moved to selective admissions and invested in the campus and in financial aid.
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