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Topic:  The continued enrollment decline

Topic:  The continued enrollment decline
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/11/2021 1:29:17 PM 
https://woub.org/2021/04/07/ohio-university-enrollment-on...
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/11/2021 2:00:33 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
https://woub.org/2021/04/07/ohio-university-enrollment-on...


Thanks for posting. As I've said repeatedly and in this article we admit it, we have been getting out sold. This is a well written article.


As enrollment declined, university leaders pointed to declining numbers of Ohio high school graduates as one of the reasons. For example, at a retreat last August to discuss the university’s enrollment and budget issues, the board was presented with a chart showing a sharp decline in Ohio high school graduates beginning about a decade ago and continuing through 2020 before starting to level off.

But that decline did not in fact happen. The alarming projections by the Western Interstate Commission for Higher Education were wrong, at least so far in Ohio. And so, declining enrollment at Ohio University was not the result of a shrinking pool of Ohio high school graduates.

Data from the Ohio Department of Education, which gets its numbers directly from the state’s high schools, show that the number of high school graduates has held fairly steady over the past decade. The data show 123,414 graduates in the 2018-19 school year, the most recent year for which data is available because of the time it takes to collect and compile the information. This was just a few students shy of the 123,437 graduates in the 2009-10 school year. In the years in between, the number of graduates did dip in the 2013-14 and the 2014-15 school years but then climbed back up.

Last Edited: 4/11/2021 2:06:05 PM by Alan Swank

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/11/2021 9:15:22 PM 
Lower enrollment is actually good as it will allow for increased social distancing. University’s maintaining enrollment are a public health threat.


I've seen crazier things happen.

Black 41 Flash Reverse

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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/11/2021 9:29:56 PM 
“Complaining about enrollment declines is a form of hazing”
—Jenny Hall Jones, probably—
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/12/2021 8:51:01 AM 
mf279801 wrote:
“Complaining about enrollment declines is a form of hazing”
—Jenny Hall Jones, probably—


I know the current administration's unpopular, and that the tendency will be to try and pin enrollment declines on them, but our slide down the national rankings began under the previous regime, and ultimately there's probably no greater factor.

High school students from Ohio who choose to attend an in-state school now have three choices that rank higher than OU. We're closer to Kent State in US News & World Report rankings than we are to Miami. The low end of their SAT score range is our high end.

I'm not an expert in higher ed, so I'm not going to pretend to know all of the factors as well as many here do. But parents are bribing university officials and a billion dollar industry of 'admissions consultants' exists where it didn't 15 years ago. These rankings, and the weight they carry, matter to people more than ever -- right or wrong. As controversial as those rankings are, they're important.

Anecdotally, I can say that my dad was the dean of faculty at a state college in Virginia. During his tenure, their US News ranking rose dramatically, enough so that they moved from the 'regional universities list' to the National Liberal Arts Colleges ranking. Application volume rose dramatically as well.

Last Edited: 4/12/2021 3:32:55 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame

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The Optimist
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/12/2021 1:08:09 PM 
mf279801 wrote:
“Complaining about enrollment declines is a form of hazing”
—Jenny Hall Jones, probably—


CEASE AND DESIST


I've seen crazier things happen.

Black 41 Flash Reverse

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/13/2021 9:28:42 AM 
So at the end of the day, what is the answer to reversing this precipitous decline? Using factual data, what is it that would lead a prospective student to come to OU? In other words, what are we about?
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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/13/2021 10:56:23 AM 
Are we aiming for more students or a better quality of students? Which do you believe to be the priority of the current administration?
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/13/2021 11:21:23 AM 
Kevin Finnegan wrote:
Are we aiming for more students or a better quality of students? Which do you believe to be the priority of the current administration?


Serious question, and kind of what I took from the article. Do we actually have a stratagey? A goal? An aim of anytype? My take was we are playing catch up in that arena.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/13/2021 12:45:58 PM 
The short-term goal should be to get bodies on campus as a revenue builder. Improving the quality of students is more a long-term goal, five to ten years.

Is it just a coincidence that the enrollment decline has occurred at the same time that Ohio has lost its party school image? We didn't make Princeton's list this year, but Dayton did. Not on the BestColleges.com top 15 party schools. We're only #13 in the Niche list (Fiami is #16). Schools like Wisconsin, Tulane and Alabama are making top five of these lists. Does not being viewed as a party school anymore hurt enrollment?


We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/13/2021 12:57:43 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
The short-term goal should be to get bodies on campus as a revenue builder. Improving the quality of students is more a long-term goal, five to ten years.

Is it just a coincidence that the enrollment decline has occurred at the same time that Ohio has lost its party school image? We didn't make Princeton's list this year, but Dayton did. Not on the BestColleges.com top 15 party schools. We're only #13 in the Niche list (Fiami is #16). Schools like Wisconsin, Tulane and Alabama are making top five of these lists. Does not being viewed as a party school anymore hurt enrollment?


I'd say this is likely a factor. I'm not from Ohio, and don't really know how OU was positioned to in-state high school students, but my sense as a student at OU was that our being the biggest party school in the state was a big part of our identity. Without that, I don't think we have much of an identity.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/13/2021 1:12:23 PM 
Pataskala wrote:
The short-term goal should be to get bodies on campus as a revenue builder. Improving the quality of students is more a long-term goal, five to ten years.

Is it just a coincidence that the enrollment decline has occurred at the same time that Ohio has lost its party school image? We didn't make Princeton's list this year, but Dayton did. Not on the BestColleges.com top 15 party schools. We're only #13 in the Niche list (Fiami is #16). Schools like Wisconsin, Tulane and Alabama are making top five of these lists. Does not being viewed as a party school anymore hurt enrollment?


Very interesting thoughts. Let me add two more possible contributors- the hazing death and the multi-part front page series in the Dispatch about it and the current fight between the faculty senate and the board of trustees over a faculty sexual harrassment and tenure revocation case.

I'd love to sit on the pato at Jacki O's taproom with a few folks on here and discuss this.

Last Edited: 4/13/2021 1:12:57 PM by Alan Swank

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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/13/2021 1:56:18 PM 
Kevin Finnegan wrote:
Are we aiming for more students or a better quality of students? Which do you believe to be the priority of the current administration?


These questions that you and Alan have posed beg another question: Does Ohio have a strategic plan that emphasizes measurable objectives, shows deadlines for meeting them, and uses key performance indicators to track progress on the objectives?


http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/13/2021 3:32:48 PM 
Mike Johnson wrote:


These questions that you and Alan have posed beg another question: Does Ohio have a strategic plan that emphasizes measurable objectives, shows deadlines for meeting them, and uses key performance indicators to track progress on the objectives?


And,what happens if measurable objectives, etc. aren't met ?

It seems ,in higher academics,the people who come up with the items you reference don't face any kind of penalties if goals they set aren't met.




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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/13/2021 6:54:56 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Mike Johnson wrote:


These questions that you and Alan have posed beg another question: Does Ohio have a strategic plan that emphasizes measurable objectives, shows deadlines for meeting them, and uses key performance indicators to track progress on the objectives?


And,what happens if measurable objectives, etc. aren't met ?

It seems ,in higher academics,the people who come up with the items you reference don't face any kind of penalties if goals they set aren't met.






And perhaps that's why we don't hear about measurable objectives in academia. That is to say that jobs could be lost if objectives aren't achieved.

Any business or other entity using measurable objectives should also be using Key Performance Indicators to track progress on the objectives. If the KPIs are, for example, tracking progress on objectives that are to be met by end of 2022 and the tracking figures are posted monthly, and if, say half way to the deadline it appears that objectives won't be met, instead of moping the situation should be treated as an opportunity to ask: What should we be doing more of or different from. Measurable objectives and KPIs should bring more rigor to planning and fuel more creative thinking.


http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/14/2021 10:28:55 AM 
That's interesting news about the demographics that I hadn't heard. It certainly puts more of a burden on the current administration for our enrollment problems, though it doesn't absolve the previous one for showing little to no quality increases during a demographic bubble.

As for measurable goals, I think most universities have strategic plans and benchmark universities that they judge themselves against. I just don't see a lot of accountability for failing to meet them. In the case of McDavis, he continually covered up his stagnation on the quality front by publicly throwing out the red meat in speeches and interviews about how Ohio would soon be passing OSU for freshman selectivity.
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Club Hyatt
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/14/2021 12:58:36 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Pataskala wrote:
The short-term goal should be to get bodies on campus as a revenue builder. Improving the quality of students is more a long-term goal, five to ten years.

Is it just a coincidence that the enrollment decline has occurred at the same time that Ohio has lost its party school image? We didn't make Princeton's list this year, but Dayton did. Not on the BestColleges.com top 15 party schools. We're only #13 in the Niche list (Fiami is #16). Schools like Wisconsin, Tulane and Alabama are making top five of these lists. Does not being viewed as a party school anymore hurt enrollment?


Very interesting thoughts. Let me add two more possible contributors- the hazing death and the multi-part front page series in the Dispatch about it and the current fight between the faculty senate and the board of trustees over a faculty sexual harrassment and tenure revocation case.

I'd love to sit on the pato at Jacki O's taproom with a few folks on here and discuss this.


The news events don't jive with the concept either that OU is the anti-Miami. Plenty of dbag activity down in Athens too. Lest not for get the biggest dbag of all time Roger Ailes was an alum.


Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/14/2021 8:30:11 PM 
Club Hyatt wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Pataskala wrote:
The short-term goal should be to get bodies on campus as a revenue builder. Improving the quality of students is more a long-term goal, five to ten years.

Is it just a coincidence that the enrollment decline has occurred at the same time that Ohio has lost its party school image? We didn't make Princeton's list this year, but Dayton did. Not on the BestColleges.com top 15 party schools. We're only #13 in the Niche list (Fiami is #16). Schools like Wisconsin, Tulane and Alabama are making top five of these lists. Does not being viewed as a party school anymore hurt enrollment?


Very interesting thoughts. Let me add two more possible contributors- the hazing death and the multi-part front page series in the Dispatch about it and the current fight between the faculty senate and the board of trustees over a faculty sexual harrassment and tenure revocation case.

I'd love to sit on the pato at Jacki O's taproom with a few folks on here and discuss this.


The news events don't jive with the concept either that OU is the anti-Miami. Plenty of dbag activity down in Athens too. Lest not for get the biggest dbag of all time Roger Ailes was an alum.



Roger Ailes, Matt Lauer, now Jake Paul. If you are an OU alum, male, and famous there's a shockingly high percentage chance you're going to be accused of sexual assault.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/14/2021 11:41:54 PM 
Just a quick observation that Mike can confirm. Back in the 1960s there really was not much perceived difference between Ohio and Miami in terms of make up of the student body. Not sure what the reality was, but the perception was that the two schools were pretty much similar and that one would get an equivalent education at either school, with the exception of a few disciplines where one or the other school excelled — for Ohio it was engineering and journalism. Miami had the better business school. (Of course, Miami sucked, that’s a different discussion.) It wasn’t until the 1970s that one began to hear statements like Miami students are preppy, snobby, elitist and that Ohio students were more working class, more sociable, less pretentious, etc. What I”m not sure of about is whether or not this had been true of Miami for a longer period of time and it just took time for the perception to catch up with reality, or if there was really a major demographic shift that occurred in the 1970s that resulted in Ohio and Miami attracting a different type of student than in the past. This history, if properly understood, probably has relevance to the current discussion about current recruiting strategy and the changes that need to made going forward. I don’t have the answers, just adding a little potentially relevant information that I think is not generally understood.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/15/2021 9:42:41 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Just a quick observation that Mike can confirm. Back in the 1960s there really was not much perceived difference between Ohio and Miami in terms of make up of the student body. Not sure what the reality was, but the perception was that the two schools were pretty much similar and that one would get an equivalent education at either school, with the exception of a few disciplines where one or the other school excelled — for Ohio it was engineering and journalism. Miami had the better business school. (Of course, Miami sucked, that’s a different discussion.) It wasn’t until the 1970s that one began to hear statements like Miami students are preppy, snobby, elitist and that Ohio students were more working class, more sociable, less pretentious, etc. What I”m not sure of about is whether or not this had been true of Miami for a longer period of time and it just took time for the perception to catch up with reality, or if there was really a major demographic shift that occurred in the 1970s that resulted in Ohio and Miami attracting a different type of student than in the past. This history, if properly understood, probably has relevance to the current discussion about current recruiting strategy and the changes that need to made going forward. I don’t have the answers, just adding a little potentially relevant information that I think is not generally understood.


Late sixties or early seventies would correlate exactly with the period where Miami's image as "the only selective school in Ohio" would have been solidified. Technically, they were open admission like everyone else. The difference was that the chair of the board of regents was a former Miami President who maneuvered them into selective admissions by deliberately not building enough dorms to handle the baby boom enrollment surge in the mid to late 60s. Rhodes went along with it--his primary higher ed goals were turning OSU into a 100K open admission university and building a college in every corner of the state--and the rest is history. That image probably fueled a surge in more affluent and conservative students. By the time I was in college, Miami was absolutely a place to go if you were a preppy, Greek business major and wanted to be surrounded by other preppy, Greek business majors.

I think the snobbery/elitist aspect is insecurity. My feelings in dealing with them is that a large percentage of Miami students try to get into actual highly selective/elite schools and are turned down. They then spend the rest of their lives trying to convince everyone else that Miami is the kind of school they couldn't get into.

Last Edited: 4/15/2021 9:43:45 AM by OUPride

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/15/2021 12:24:39 PM 
One very interesting thing that I took away from the original article is learning that OSU feels that their freshman classes have become too large (over 7K recently), and are looking to cap or shrink their classes. I have to think that those cuts will be primarily Ohio kids, so that could free up anywhere from a couple hundred to a thousand well qualified kids for Ohio to go after.

As many know, I've long been an advocate for cutting some deal with OSU to cap their freshman classes at 6K to help enrollment at other schools in the system, and it looks like they're moving in that direction on their own. I doubt it has anything to do with helping anyone other than OSU (selectivity, faculty-student ratios and rankings since their admin is continually frustrated that they've been parked just outside the top 50 USNWR for over twenty years), but the side effect for other schools could be substantial.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/15/2021 3:08:27 PM 
Going back to OCF's point, Miami had something in 1970 that OU did not - graduation. 70 - 71 marked the high water mark in erollment with the low in 75 - 76.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/factbook/FACTENRL_HIST.HTML

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/16/2021 12:14:20 AM 
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Just a quick observation that Mike can confirm. Back in the 1960s there really was not much perceived difference between Ohio and Miami in terms of make up of the student body. Not sure what the reality was, but the perception was that the two schools were pretty much similar and that one would get an equivalent education at either school, with the exception of a few disciplines where one or the other school excelled — for Ohio it was engineering and journalism. Miami had the better business school. (Of course, Miami sucked, but that’s a different discussion.) It wasn’t until the 1970s that one began to hear statements like Miami students are preppy, snobby, elitist and that Ohio students were more working class, more sociable, less pretentious, etc. What I'm not sure about is whether or not this had been true of Miami for a longer period of time and it just took time for the perception to catch up with reality, or if there was really a major demographic shift that occurred in the 1970s that resulted in Ohio and Miami attracting a different type of student than in the past. This history, if properly understood, probably has relevance to the current discussion about current recruiting strategy and the changes that need to made going forward. I don’t have the answers, just adding a little potentially relevant information that I think is not generally understood.


Late sixties or early seventies would correlate exactly with the period where Miami's image as "the only selective school in Ohio" would have been solidified. Technically, they were open admission like everyone else. The difference was that the chair of the board of regents was a former Miami President who maneuvered them into selective admissions by deliberately not building enough dorms to handle the baby boom enrollment surge in the mid to late 60s. Rhodes went along with it--his primary higher ed goals were turning OSU into a 100K open admission university and building a college in every corner of the state--and the rest is history. That image probably fueled a surge in more affluent and conservative students. By the time I was in college, Miami was absolutely a place to go if you were a preppy, Greek business major and wanted to be surrounded by other preppy, Greek business majors.

I think the snobbery/elitist aspect is insecurity. My feelings in dealing with them is that a large percentage of Miami students try to get into actual highly selective/elite schools and are turned down. They then spend the rest of their lives trying to convince everyone else that Miami is the kind of school they couldn't get into.


Interesting observations, and it appears that our timelines do mesh. I might add, and I think I shared this once before: I have a little insight into at least one of the reasons that Jim Rhodes wanted open admissions across the state. He felt very insecure about his own time at OSU where he flunked out. I believe he carried a grudge about that that left him wanting to make admission as easy as possible to help kids like himself -- who deserved a second chance. My father-in-law was a pal of Rhodes at the time, and flunked out of OSU with him. I suspect that they probably were enablers for each other. My father-in-law later got his act together, enrolled in Franklin College and graduated. He later became the head of their alumni association for a whlle. Rhodes never did graduate. I think that continued to bother him, though he would probably have never admitted it.

Last Edited: 4/16/2021 12:18:38 AM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/16/2021 11:12:32 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Just a quick observation that Mike can confirm. Back in the 1960s there really was not much perceived difference between Ohio and Miami in terms of make up of the student body. Not sure what the reality was, but the perception was that the two schools were pretty much similar and that one would get an equivalent education at either school, with the exception of a few disciplines where one or the other school excelled — for Ohio it was engineering and journalism. Miami had the better business school. (Of course, Miami sucked, but that’s a different discussion.) It wasn’t until the 1970s that one began to hear statements like Miami students are preppy, snobby, elitist and that Ohio students were more working class, more sociable, less pretentious, etc. What I'm not sure about is whether or not this had been true of Miami for a longer period of time and it just took time for the perception to catch up with reality, or if there was really a major demographic shift that occurred in the 1970s that resulted in Ohio and Miami attracting a different type of student than in the past. This history, if properly understood, probably has relevance to the current discussion about current recruiting strategy and the changes that need to made going forward. I don’t have the answers, just adding a little potentially relevant information that I think is not generally understood.


Late sixties or early seventies would correlate exactly with the period where Miami's image as "the only selective school in Ohio" would have been solidified. Technically, they were open admission like everyone else. The difference was that the chair of the board of regents was a former Miami President who maneuvered them into selective admissions by deliberately not building enough dorms to handle the baby boom enrollment surge in the mid to late 60s. Rhodes went along with it--his primary higher ed goals were turning OSU into a 100K open admission university and building a college in every corner of the state--and the rest is history. That image probably fueled a surge in more affluent and conservative students. By the time I was in college, Miami was absolutely a place to go if you were a preppy, Greek business major and wanted to be surrounded by other preppy, Greek business majors.

I think the snobbery/elitist aspect is insecurity. My feelings in dealing with them is that a large percentage of Miami students try to get into actual highly selective/elite schools and are turned down. They then spend the rest of their lives trying to convince everyone else that Miami is the kind of school they couldn't get into.


Interesting observations, and it appears that our timelines do mesh. I might add, and I think I shared this once before: I have a little insight into at least one of the reasons that Jim Rhodes wanted open admissions across the state. He felt very insecure about his own time at OSU where he flunked out. I believe he carried a grudge about that that left him wanting to make admission as easy as possible to help kids like himself -- who deserved a second chance. My father-in-law was a pal of Rhodes at the time, and flunked out of OSU with him. I suspect that they probably were enablers for each other. My father-in-law later got his act together, enrolled in Franklin College and graduated. He later became the head of their alumni association for a whlle. Rhodes never did graduate. I think that continued to bother him, though he would probably have never admitted it.



Rhodes always said publicly that he voluntarily left OSU to help out his family. When he decided to run again in 1974, The Plain Dealer ended up getting his transcripts leaked to them showing that he was dismissed for academic reasons. It's long been rumored that the OSU administration themselves leaked the doc.

As for Miami's myth making, they used to--not sure if they still do--tell their students that they were the "designated honors campus" for the state system. I know this to be complete b.s. because I lost a weekend of my life researching it for my boss in the state Senate. This was a few years after OSU had gone to official selective admissions, and one of the Miami trustees was quietly lobbying our office to have the state reverse OSU's selective admissions (they saw the writing on the wall), and one of the things he brought up was the "honors campus" nonsense. Well, it was a pure myth that they had made up. There was never any act of the legislature, no policy of the Regents nor any executive order by any Governor declaring them that. It was purely self-aggrandizing b.s. that they made up about themselves out of thin air. In fact the only historical record by the state establishing any campus as separate and above the rest were the ones (Eagleson Bill, early state funding models etc) relating to OSU.

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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: The continued enrollment decline
   Posted: 4/16/2021 11:31:08 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Going back to OCF's point, Miami had something in 1970 that OU did not - graduation. 70 - 71 marked the high water mark in erollment with the low in 75 - 76.

https://www.ohio.edu/instres/factbook/FACTENRL_HIST.HTML



I wonder how much the riots after the Kent shootings had to do with that. Ohio closed down for the rest of the spring after our riot, while Fiami shut down for only ten days after theirs. Other schools shut down for the spring as well, but the perception might've been that Fiami handled the situation better. The riot might've caused some parents and high school students to think twice about Ohio. I know my parents were concerned about me going back in the fall, but I went anyway.


We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

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