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Topic:  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition

Topic:  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/30/2020 12:42:27 PM 
Kevin Finnegan wrote:
While I too dislike Miami, I take umbrage to the insinuation that equestrian sports are not real sports. My wife was on the OU Equestrian team that went to nationals in the early 2000s and did really well (she would be upset that I don't recall how well). I played lots of sports growing up and still do. Nothing is scarier for me than getting atop on of her horses. There's no way she could ever get me to attempt those jumps, that's for certain.


Equestrian sports are real sports.
For the horse. :-)

But,all kidding aside,jumping takes a lot of skill by both the rider and the horse.

I've done some small jumps,and that was scary.

If any one doesn't realize how dangerous a sport equestrian can be,just look at what happened to Christopher Reeve.
Perfect example of trying to jump,before you are ready.


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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/30/2020 1:00:16 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Agree to disagree, I guess. I respect your opinions and you're free to assume the best intentions on Miami's part. This, however, is the university that played Lucy to our Charlie Brown and yanked that football right out from under us in the 60s. I'll assume the worst intentions on their part, and their history tends to back me up.


What evidence are you basing all of this vitriol and hatred on? OCF, no fair helping him out.



In the 1960s, Jim Rhodes new chair of the regents, former Miami President John Millett, and the current Miami President Shriver talked the Ohio administration into joining them to present a unified front against OSU. OSU would be forced into open admissions while Miami and Ohio would backdoor their way into becoming selective by not building enough dorms for the oncoming baby boom enrollment surge. Well, OSU was forced into open admissions when the dust settled......and so was OU. Millett and Shriver then went ahead with their plan only for themselves leaving Miami as the only selective Ohio public until OSU told them to $@^* off in the early 80s when Celeste came into office. For all the hatred and vitriol towards OSU here, they never used, manipulated and screwed over Ohio the way that Millett and Shriver did.

Again, they were happy being part of the system when everything was rigged in their favor. Level field of play though, and they want to take their ball and run off to the Chicago suburbs.

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/30/2020 4:56:07 PM 
OUPride wrote:
. . . For all the hatred and vitriol towards OSU here, they never used, manipulated and screwed over Ohio the way that Millett and Shriver did. . . .


Oh yes, they did, but that was before both us were born. Please read the Hoover history of Ohio University for many, many examples. Here's but one example: The Eagleson Bill in 1914 which gave Ohio and Miami .025 mills for their general funds and .015 mills for their normal schools, and the "stripping," as Hoover called them, got .16 mills for all of its activities. At that point, the General Assembly also repealed the 1896 Sleeper Bill, named after former Speaker of the House David L. Sleeper (R-Athens), which had given Ohio and Miami their first regular appropriations as part of the state budget. That same year the junior institution had introduced in the General Assembly a bill to change its name to the "University of Ohio." It failed. They tried again in 1917. It failed again. It then had to settle for having the now-infamous "The" added to its name. And, thus began the equally infamous "name stealing" culminating in the "Battle of Ohio" lawsuit circa 2000.

To give you a flavor of the period, here's but one paragraph from Hoover's book: "Ellis' administration was marked by a growing friction between Ohio University and Ohio State University. This rivalry had begun in the late 'sixties [1860s] when efforts were being made to establish the younger school at Columbus. The legislation of 1896 and 1902 had magnified the dissension, which was only partially relieved by the law of 1906. A new source of irritation arose in 1914, when Ohio State authorities, seeking to obtain a name for their university that would correspond to the names of similar institutions in neighboring states, tried to change the name from Ohio State University to the University of Ohio."


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/30/2020 6:31:47 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
. . . For all the hatred and vitriol towards OSU here, they never used, manipulated and screwed over Ohio the way that Millett and Shriver did. . . .


Oh yes, they did, but that was before both us were born. Please read the Hoover history of Ohio University for many, many examples. Here's but one example: The Eagleson Bill in 1914 which gave Ohio and Miami .025 mills for their general funds and .015 mills for their normal schools, and the "stripping," as Hoover called them, got .16 mills for all of its activities. At that point, the General Assembly also repealed the 1896 Sleeper Bill, named after former Speaker of the House David L. Sleeper (R-Athens), which had given Ohio and Miami their first regular appropriations as part of the state budget. That same year the junior institution had introduced in the General Assembly a bill to change its name to the "University of Ohio." It failed. They tried again in 1917. It failed again. It then had to settle for having the now-infamous "The" added to its name. And, thus began the equally infamous "name stealing" culminating in the "Battle of Ohio" lawsuit circa 2000.

To give you a flavor of the period, here's but one paragraph from Hoover's book: "Ellis' administration was marked by a growing friction between Ohio University and Ohio State University. This rivalry had begun in the late 'sixties [1860s] when efforts were being made to establish the younger school at Columbus. The legislation of 1896 and 1902 had magnified the dissension, which was only partially relieved by the law of 1906. A new source of irritation arose in 1914, when Ohio State authorities, seeking to obtain a name for their university that would correspond to the names of similar institutions in neighboring states, tried to change the name from Ohio State University to the University of Ohio."


I don't dispute that happened. The Eagleson though (I believe) was the 1906 bill that locked in OSU as the flagship by barring Ohio and Miami from having doctoral programs, professional schools or conducting basic research. Ten years later they were in both the Big Ten and the AAU. Now, OSU was certainly in favor of that, but the blame in those formative decades lies as much with the larger political and business interests that had been promoting OSU for that role from the beginning as much as the institution they created to fulfill it.

And as you point out, those decisions were made 100 to 150 years ago. Miami's treachery happened in our lifetimes.

Last Edited: 1/30/2020 6:33:33 PM by OUPride

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/30/2020 7:14:23 PM 
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
. . . For all the hatred and vitriol towards OSU here, they never used, manipulated and screwed over Ohio the way that Millett and Shriver did. . . .


Oh yes, they did, but that was before both us were born. Please read the Hoover history of Ohio University for many, many examples. Here's but one example: The Eagleson Bill in 1914 which gave Ohio and Miami .025 mills for their general funds and .015 mills for their normal schools, and the "stripping," as Hoover called them, got .16 mills for all of its activities. At that point, the General Assembly also repealed the 1896 Sleeper Bill, named after former Speaker of the House David L. Sleeper (R-Athens), which had given Ohio and Miami their first regular appropriations as part of the state budget. That same year the junior institution had introduced in the General Assembly a bill to change its name to the "University of Ohio." It failed. They tried again in 1917. It failed again. It then had to settle for having the now-infamous "The" added to its name. And, thus began the equally infamous "name stealing" culminating in the "Battle of Ohio" lawsuit circa 2000.

To give you a flavor of the period, here's but one paragraph from Hoover's book: "Ellis' administration was marked by a growing friction between Ohio University and Ohio State University. This rivalry had begun in the late 'sixties [1860s] when efforts were being made to establish the younger school at Columbus. The legislation of 1896 and 1902 had magnified the dissension, which was only partially relieved by the law of 1906. A new source of irritation arose in 1914, when Ohio State authorities, seeking to obtain a name for their university that would correspond to the names of similar institutions in neighboring states, tried to change the name from Ohio State University to the University of Ohio."


I don't dispute that happened. The Eagleson though (I believe) was the 1906 bill that locked in OSU as the flagship by barring Ohio and Miami from having doctoral programs, professional schools or conducting basic research. Ten years later they were in both the Big Ten and the AAU. Now, OSU was certainly in favor of that, but the blame in those formative decades lies as much with the larger political and business interests that had been promoting OSU for that role from the beginning as much as the institution they created to fulfill it.

And as you point out, those decisions were made 100 to 150 years ago. Miami's treachery happened in our lifetimes.


You are correct, the Eagleson Bill was 1906. I was confused because the even more restrictive Lybarger Bill, which was defeated, was introduced also in 1906. I had thought the Eagleson Bill was several years later, upon checking sources, my memory was wrong. The Lybarger Bill would have restricted Ohio and Miami to only their normal schools getting state support. Guy Potter Benson, president of Miami, said the blame for the introduction of this bill was certain OSU professors who had posed as Ohio and Miami alumni and told the legislators that they were in favor of this concept. According to Benton, these professors had sought to increase their personal incomes and build up the Columbus institution at the expense of the smaller universities. Hover says, "The defeat of the Lybarger Bill in early March [1906] was loudly celebrated in Athens.

Just found an interesting article about this from 20 Oct 2017 issue of the Toledo Blade: https://tinyurl.com/wmxy3nt

Here's a key quote from the article, about the Lybarger Bill:

"Miami and Ohio, both of which are substantially older than Ohio State, were furious at the bill. Walter Havighurst’s The Miami Years 1809-1969 noted that protests broke out in both Oxford and Athens, and supporters of the schools mobilized. In Athens, a meeting at the city courtroom led to a fund for concerned citizens to travel to Columbus to lobby against the bill."

Last Edited: 1/30/2020 7:16:34 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/30/2020 8:07:51 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
. . . For all the hatred and vitriol towards OSU here, they never used, manipulated and screwed over Ohio the way that Millett and Shriver did. . . .


Oh yes, they did, but that was before both us were born. Please read the Hoover history of Ohio University for many, many examples. Here's but one example: The Eagleson Bill in 1914 which gave Ohio and Miami .025 mills for their general funds and .015 mills for their normal schools, and the "stripping," as Hoover called them, got .16 mills for all of its activities. At that point, the General Assembly also repealed the 1896 Sleeper Bill, named after former Speaker of the House David L. Sleeper (R-Athens), which had given Ohio and Miami their first regular appropriations as part of the state budget. That same year the junior institution had introduced in the General Assembly a bill to change its name to the "University of Ohio." It failed. They tried again in 1917. It failed again. It then had to settle for having the now-infamous "The" added to its name. And, thus began the equally infamous "name stealing" culminating in the "Battle of Ohio" lawsuit circa 2000.

To give you a flavor of the period, here's but one paragraph from Hoover's book: "Ellis' administration was marked by a growing friction between Ohio University and Ohio State University. This rivalry had begun in the late 'sixties [1860s] when efforts were being made to establish the younger school at Columbus. The legislation of 1896 and 1902 had magnified the dissension, which was only partially relieved by the law of 1906. A new source of irritation arose in 1914, when Ohio State authorities, seeking to obtain a name for their university that would correspond to the names of similar institutions in neighboring states, tried to change the name from Ohio State University to the University of Ohio."


I don't dispute that happened. The Eagleson though (I believe) was the 1906 bill that locked in OSU as the flagship by barring Ohio and Miami from having doctoral programs, professional schools or conducting basic research. Ten years later they were in both the Big Ten and the AAU. Now, OSU was certainly in favor of that, but the blame in those formative decades lies as much with the larger political and business interests that had been promoting OSU for that role from the beginning as much as the institution they created to fulfill it.

And as you point out, those decisions were made 100 to 150 years ago. Miami's treachery happened in our lifetimes.


You are correct, the Eagleson Bill was 1906. I was confused because the even more restrictive Lybarger Bill, which was defeated, was introduced also in 1906. I had thought the Eagleson Bill was several years later, upon checking sources, my memory was wrong. The Lybarger Bill would have restricted Ohio and Miami to only their normal schools getting state support. Guy Potter Benson, president of Miami, said the blame for the introduction of this bill was certain OSU professors who had posed as Ohio and Miami alumni and told the legislators that they were in favor of this concept. According to Benton, these professors had sought to increase their personal incomes and build up the Columbus institution at the expense of the smaller universities. Hover says, "The defeat of the Lybarger Bill in early March [1906] was loudly celebrated in Athens.

Just found an interesting article about this from 20 Oct 2017 issue of the Toledo Blade: https://tinyurl.com/wmxy3nt

Here's a key quote from the article, about the Lybarger Bill:

"Miami and Ohio, both of which are substantially older than Ohio State, were furious at the bill. Walter Havighurst’s The Miami Years 1809-1969 noted that protests broke out in both Oxford and Athens, and supporters of the schools mobilized. In Athens, a meeting at the city courtroom led to a fund for concerned citizens to travel to Columbus to lobby against the bill."


Ohio definitely has an interesting and convoluted history to its higher education system. And while I'm sure that OSU was no Saint in all this, I also find it logical that Ohio and Miami probably bear some responsibility for the fate that befell them and the decisions that went against them during this period. There had to have been some decent arguments to be made for why Ohio--alone among the Great Lakes states--chose to create a new university as the land grant university and then proceeded to consistently make decisions in the immediate following decades that would position that school as a singular, comprehensive research flagship a'la Illinois or Wisconsin. Do I wish that the historical chips had fallen differently and Ohio had been given that role? Of course.

But as things stand today, I do respect OSU. I do believe that they are committed to the well being of Ohioans and the economic development of Ohio, and I think they provide the state with a damned good AAU type flagship. I look at Miami, and I can't find that respect because I just don't see what the state gets out of maintaining a school that is pretty blatant about thinking it's too good to be part of the Ohio public university system and making conscious decisions that reflect that delusional arrogance.

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/30/2020 8:19:54 PM 
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
. . . For all the hatred and vitriol towards OSU here, they never used, manipulated and screwed over Ohio the way that Millett and Shriver did. . . .


Oh yes, they did, but that was before both us were born. Please read the Hoover history of Ohio University for many, many examples. Here's but one example: The Eagleson Bill in 1914 which gave Ohio and Miami .025 mills for their general funds and .015 mills for their normal schools, and the "stripping," as Hoover called them, got .16 mills for all of its activities. At that point, the General Assembly also repealed the 1896 Sleeper Bill, named after former Speaker of the House David L. Sleeper (R-Athens), which had given Ohio and Miami their first regular appropriations as part of the state budget. That same year the junior institution had introduced in the General Assembly a bill to change its name to the "University of Ohio." It failed. They tried again in 1917. It failed again. It then had to settle for having the now-infamous "The" added to its name. And, thus began the equally infamous "name stealing" culminating in the "Battle of Ohio" lawsuit circa 2000.

To give you a flavor of the period, here's but one paragraph from Hoover's book: "Ellis' administration was marked by a growing friction between Ohio University and Ohio State University. This rivalry had begun in the late 'sixties [1860s] when efforts were being made to establish the younger school at Columbus. The legislation of 1896 and 1902 had magnified the dissension, which was only partially relieved by the law of 1906. A new source of irritation arose in 1914, when Ohio State authorities, seeking to obtain a name for their university that would correspond to the names of similar institutions in neighboring states, tried to change the name from Ohio State University to the University of Ohio."


I don't dispute that happened. The Eagleson though (I believe) was the 1906 bill that locked in OSU as the flagship by barring Ohio and Miami from having doctoral programs, professional schools or conducting basic research. Ten years later they were in both the Big Ten and the AAU. Now, OSU was certainly in favor of that, but the blame in those formative decades lies as much with the larger political and business interests that had been promoting OSU for that role from the beginning as much as the institution they created to fulfill it.

And as you point out, those decisions were made 100 to 150 years ago. Miami's treachery happened in our lifetimes.


You are correct, the Eagleson Bill was 1906. I was confused because the even more restrictive Lybarger Bill, which was defeated, was introduced also in 1906. I had thought the Eagleson Bill was several years later, upon checking sources, my memory was wrong. The Lybarger Bill would have restricted Ohio and Miami to only their normal schools getting state support. Guy Potter Benson, president of Miami, said the blame for the introduction of this bill was certain OSU professors who had posed as Ohio and Miami alumni and told the legislators that they were in favor of this concept. According to Benton, these professors had sought to increase their personal incomes and build up the Columbus institution at the expense of the smaller universities. Hover says, "The defeat of the Lybarger Bill in early March [1906] was loudly celebrated in Athens.

Just found an interesting article about this from 20 Oct 2017 issue of the Toledo Blade: https://tinyurl.com/wmxy3nt

Here's a key quote from the article, about the Lybarger Bill:

"Miami and Ohio, both of which are substantially older than Ohio State, were furious at the bill. Walter Havighurst’s The Miami Years 1809-1969 noted that protests broke out in both Oxford and Athens, and supporters of the schools mobilized. In Athens, a meeting at the city courtroom led to a fund for concerned citizens to travel to Columbus to lobby against the bill."


Ohio definitely has an interesting and convoluted history to its higher education system. And while I'm sure that OSU was no Saint in all this, I also find it logical that Ohio and Miami probably bear some responsibility for the fate that befell them and the decisions that went against them during this period. There had to have been some decent arguments to be made for why Ohio--alone among the Great Lakes states--chose to create a new university as the land grant university and then proceeded to consistently make decisions in the immediate following decades that would position that school as a singular, comprehensive research flagship a'la Illinois or Wisconsin. Do I wish that the historical chips had fallen differently and Ohio had been given that role? Of course.

But as things stand today, I do respect OSU. I do believe that they are committed to the well being of Ohioans and the economic development of Ohio, and I think they provide the state with a damned good AAU type flagship. I look at Miami, and I can't find that respect because I just don't see what the state gets out of maintaining a school that is pretty blatant about thinking it's too good to be part of the Ohio public university system and making conscious decisions that reflect that delusional arrogance.



So this begs the question. Were you rejected for admission to Miami?

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/30/2020 8:31:26 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride wrote:
. . . For all the hatred and vitriol towards OSU here, they never used, manipulated and screwed over Ohio the way that Millett and Shriver did. . . .


Oh yes, they did, but that was before both us were born. Please read the Hoover history of Ohio University for many, many examples. Here's but one example: The Eagleson Bill in 1914 which gave Ohio and Miami .025 mills for their general funds and .015 mills for their normal schools, and the "stripping," as Hoover called them, got .16 mills for all of its activities. At that point, the General Assembly also repealed the 1896 Sleeper Bill, named after former Speaker of the House David L. Sleeper (R-Athens), which had given Ohio and Miami their first regular appropriations as part of the state budget. That same year the junior institution had introduced in the General Assembly a bill to change its name to the "University of Ohio." It failed. They tried again in 1917. It failed again. It then had to settle for having the now-infamous "The" added to its name. And, thus began the equally infamous "name stealing" culminating in the "Battle of Ohio" lawsuit circa 2000.

To give you a flavor of the period, here's but one paragraph from Hoover's book: "Ellis' administration was marked by a growing friction between Ohio University and Ohio State University. This rivalry had begun in the late 'sixties [1860s] when efforts were being made to establish the younger school at Columbus. The legislation of 1896 and 1902 had magnified the dissension, which was only partially relieved by the law of 1906. A new source of irritation arose in 1914, when Ohio State authorities, seeking to obtain a name for their university that would correspond to the names of similar institutions in neighboring states, tried to change the name from Ohio State University to the University of Ohio."


I don't dispute that happened. The Eagleson though (I believe) was the 1906 bill that locked in OSU as the flagship by barring Ohio and Miami from having doctoral programs, professional schools or conducting basic research. Ten years later they were in both the Big Ten and the AAU. Now, OSU was certainly in favor of that, but the blame in those formative decades lies as much with the larger political and business interests that had been promoting OSU for that role from the beginning as much as the institution they created to fulfill it.

And as you point out, those decisions were made 100 to 150 years ago. Miami's treachery happened in our lifetimes.


You are correct, the Eagleson Bill was 1906. I was confused because the even more restrictive Lybarger Bill, which was defeated, was introduced also in 1906. I had thought the Eagleson Bill was several years later, upon checking sources, my memory was wrong. The Lybarger Bill would have restricted Ohio and Miami to only their normal schools getting state support. Guy Potter Benson, president of Miami, said the blame for the introduction of this bill was certain OSU professors who had posed as Ohio and Miami alumni and told the legislators that they were in favor of this concept. According to Benton, these professors had sought to increase their personal incomes and build up the Columbus institution at the expense of the smaller universities. Hover says, "The defeat of the Lybarger Bill in early March [1906] was loudly celebrated in Athens.

Just found an interesting article about this from 20 Oct 2017 issue of the Toledo Blade: https://tinyurl.com/wmxy3nt

Here's a key quote from the article, about the Lybarger Bill:

"Miami and Ohio, both of which are substantially older than Ohio State, were furious at the bill. Walter Havighurst’s The Miami Years 1809-1969 noted that protests broke out in both Oxford and Athens, and supporters of the schools mobilized. In Athens, a meeting at the city courtroom led to a fund for concerned citizens to travel to Columbus to lobby against the bill."


Ohio definitely has an interesting and convoluted history to its higher education system. And while I'm sure that OSU was no Saint in all this, I also find it logical that Ohio and Miami probably bear some responsibility for the fate that befell them and the decisions that went against them during this period. There had to have been some decent arguments to be made for why Ohio--alone among the Great Lakes states--chose to create a new university as the land grant university and then proceeded to consistently make decisions in the immediate following decades that would position that school as a singular, comprehensive research flagship a'la Illinois or Wisconsin. Do I wish that the historical chips had fallen differently and Ohio had been given that role? Of course.

But as things stand today, I do respect OSU. I do believe that they are committed to the well being of Ohioans and the economic development of Ohio, and I think they provide the state with a damned good AAU type flagship. I look at Miami, and I can't find that respect because I just don't see what the state gets out of maintaining a school that is pretty blatant about thinking it's too good to be part of the Ohio public university system and making conscious decisions that reflect that delusional arrogance.



So this begs the question. Were you rejected for admission to Miami?



Now, I know you're not a Miami alum, but that is exactly what they say to somebody who dares to criticize the place. As for me, never even thought of applying. I thought the place was too one-dimensional, too conservative, too greek and too "everybody majors in business." It wasn't my bag, baby.
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cc-cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/30/2020 10:56:06 PM 
Let's get back on topic here

Miami Sucks
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/31/2020 2:12:27 AM 
Well, it's also true that if Miami had been willing to compromise one session of the General Assembly earlier than actually happened, Ohio and Miami would have split the A and the M (as was permissible) and OSU would have died without ever having been a gleam in the eye of the State Legislature. So, even the creation of OSU can be blamed on Miami. They do, indeed, suck!


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/31/2020 10:37:26 AM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
Well, it's also true that if Miami had been willing to compromise one session of the General Assembly earlier than actually happened, Ohio and Miami would have split the A and the M (as was permissible) and OSU would have died without ever having been a gleam in the eye of the State Legislature. So, even the creation of OSU can be blamed on Miami. They do, indeed, suck!


Yes, Miami does indeed suck, and that's all that I was trying to say with this little thread and was a little taken aback by those who swiftly came to Miami's defense. Extremism in the service of pointing out Miami's suckitude is no vice.

As for the more serious issue of the attempted compromise, that must have happened before Hayes was Governor because my understanding of the history is that once he was in office, OSU was pretty much manifest destiny. He even went so far as to make a compromise with Cincinnati politicians and businessmen allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K population, which was only Cincy at the time. Cincinnati was subsequently able to cobble some existing colleges together and endow them as a singular municipal university while Hayes received their support in not only founding OSU but putting it in Columbus (away from the ag interests in Springfield) and giving it a comprehensive "classic" curriculum that included arts, sciences etc. Had he not made that compromise, there's a good chance that OSU would have been located in Springfield and under the thumb of the agricultural interests would have been much more of a practical "farmer training" school, which would have given Ohio (and Miami) much more breathing room to grow as comprehensive universities.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/31/2020 11:36:55 AM 
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Well, it's also true that if Miami had been willing to compromise one session of the General Assembly earlier than actually happened, Ohio and Miami would have split the A and the M (as was permissible) and OSU would have died without ever having been a gleam in the eye of the State Legislature. So, even the creation of OSU can be blamed on Miami. They do, indeed, suck!


Yes, Miami does indeed suck, and that's all that I was trying to say with this little thread and was a little taken aback by those who swiftly came to Miami's defense. Extremism in the service of pointing out Miami's suckitude is no vice.

As for the more serious issue of the attempted compromise, that must have happened before Hayes was Governor because my understanding of the history is that once he was in office, OSU was pretty much manifest destiny. He even went so far as to make a compromise with Cincinnati politicians and businessmen allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K population, which was only Cincy at the time. Cincinnati was subsequently able to cobble some existing colleges together and endow them as a singular municipal university while Hayes received their support in not only founding OSU but putting it in Columbus (away from the ag interests in Springfield) and giving it a comprehensive "classic" curriculum that included arts, sciences etc. Had he not made that compromise, there's a good chance that OSU would have been located in Springfield and under the thumb of the agricultural interests would have been much more of a practical "farmer training" school, which would have given Ohio (and Miami) much more breathing room to grow as comprehensive universities.


For caring little about or perhaps actually dispising them, you certainly have spent a great deal of time learning all about them.

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/31/2020 11:50:02 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Well, it's also true that if Miami had been willing to compromise one session of the General Assembly earlier than actually happened, Ohio and Miami would have split the A and the M (as was permissible) and OSU would have died without ever having been a gleam in the eye of the State Legislature. So, even the creation of OSU can be blamed on Miami. They do, indeed, suck!


Yes, Miami does indeed suck, and that's all that I was trying to say with this little thread and was a little taken aback by those who swiftly came to Miami's defense. Extremism in the service of pointing out Miami's suckitude is no vice.

As for the more serious issue of the attempted compromise, that must have happened before Hayes was Governor because my understanding of the history is that once he was in office, OSU was pretty much manifest destiny. He even went so far as to make a compromise with Cincinnati politicians and businessmen allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K population, which was only Cincy at the time. Cincinnati was subsequently able to cobble some existing colleges together and endow them as a singular municipal university while Hayes received their support in not only founding OSU but putting it in Columbus (away from the ag interests in Springfield) and giving it a comprehensive "classic" curriculum that included arts, sciences etc. Had he not made that compromise, there's a good chance that OSU would have been located in Springfield and under the thumb of the agricultural interests would have been much more of a practical "farmer training" school, which would have given Ohio (and Miami) much more breathing room to grow as comprehensive universities.


For caring little about or perhaps actually dispising them, you certainly have spent a great deal of time learning all about them.



Miami or OSU? I know a great deal about both and the history of higher education in Ohio. You do know that I worked for a state Senator on the higher education committee.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/31/2020 12:41:54 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Well, it's also true that if Miami had been willing to compromise one session of the General Assembly earlier than actually happened, Ohio and Miami would have split the A and the M (as was permissible) and OSU would have died without ever having been a gleam in the eye of the State Legislature. So, even the creation of OSU can be blamed on Miami. They do, indeed, suck!


Yes, Miami does indeed suck, and that's all that I was trying to say with this little thread and was a little taken aback by those who swiftly came to Miami's defense. Extremism in the service of pointing out Miami's suckitude is no vice.

As for the more serious issue of the attempted compromise, that must have happened before Hayes was Governor because my understanding of the history is that once he was in office, OSU was pretty much manifest destiny. He even went so far as to make a compromise with Cincinnati politicians and businessmen allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K population, which was only Cincy at the time. Cincinnati was subsequently able to cobble some existing colleges together and endow them as a singular municipal university while Hayes received their support in not only founding OSU but putting it in Columbus (away from the ag interests in Springfield) and giving it a comprehensive "classic" curriculum that included arts, sciences etc. Had he not made that compromise, there's a good chance that OSU would have been located in Springfield and under the thumb of the agricultural interests would have been much more of a practical "farmer training" school, which would have given Ohio (and Miami) much more breathing room to grow as comprehensive universities.


For caring little about or perhaps actually dispising them, you certainly have spent a great deal of time learning all about them.



Miami or OSU? I know a great deal about both and the history of higher education in Ohio. You do know that I worked for a state Senator on the higher education committee.


Which Senator and in what time period?

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/31/2020 1:22:23 PM 
OUPride wrote:
. . . Extremism in the service of pointing out Miami's suckitude is no vice.


Well said!

OUPride wrote:
As for the more serious issue of the attempted compromise, that must have happened before Hayes was Governor . . .


Yes, much of this occurred before Hayes became governor in 1868. In fact, the lobbying in Columbus for Morrill Act funds by Ohio started before the end of the Rebellion -- on 28 Sep 1863 a special committee of the Trustees was chosen to work on the acquiring of Morrill Act funding. There were attempts to coordinate things with Miami from the beginning, and according to one historian an earlier compromise would probably have been successful, but as time wore on, the concept of a new separate university gained favor. Then, in 1868, perhaps as you suggest due to the leadership of Hayes, a committee of the Legislature asked for and received proposals for a new Morrill Act college from Worthington, Oxford, Urbana, Wooster and Newark. The committee favored either Urbana or Wooster. Two years later they choose the outskirts of Columbus, when Franklin County offered $300,000 in bonds for help start the school. It is interesting that Oxford, but not Athens, appeared on that 1868 list. Perhaps, after the failure of the earlier compromise efforts, Ohio had given up by that time. It would be interesting to look back at some of the primary source material relating to all of this. For the most part, I only have secondary sources. I did review some primary source material at OSU that related to the 1914-17, "University of Ohio" and the "The" business.

Last Edited: 1/31/2020 1:24:17 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/31/2020 6:39:02 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Well, it's also true that if Miami had been willing to compromise one session of the General Assembly earlier than actually happened, Ohio and Miami would have split the A and the M (as was permissible) and OSU would have died without ever having been a gleam in the eye of the State Legislature. So, even the creation of OSU can be blamed on Miami. They do, indeed, suck!


Yes, Miami does indeed suck, and that's all that I was trying to say with this little thread and was a little taken aback by those who swiftly came to Miami's defense. Extremism in the service of pointing out Miami's suckitude is no vice.

As for the more serious issue of the attempted compromise, that must have happened before Hayes was Governor because my understanding of the history is that once he was in office, OSU was pretty much manifest destiny. He even went so far as to make a compromise with Cincinnati politicians and businessmen allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K population, which was only Cincy at the time. Cincinnati was subsequently able to cobble some existing colleges together and endow them as a singular municipal university while Hayes received their support in not only founding OSU but putting it in Columbus (away from the ag interests in Springfield) and giving it a comprehensive "classic" curriculum that included arts, sciences etc. Had he not made that compromise, there's a good chance that OSU would have been located in Springfield and under the thumb of the agricultural interests would have been much more of a practical "farmer training" school, which would have given Ohio (and Miami) much more breathing room to grow as comprehensive universities.


For caring little about or perhaps actually dispising them, you certainly have spent a great deal of time learning all about them.



Miami or OSU? I know a great deal about both and the history of higher education in Ohio. You do know that I worked for a state Senator on the higher education committee.


Which Senator and in what time period?



119th General Assembly 91-92, and that's all the personal info that I feel like giving out. And besides, giving you a name proves nothing in the age of Google.
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/31/2020 10:16:10 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Well, it's also true that if Miami had been willing to compromise one session of the General Assembly earlier than actually happened, Ohio and Miami would have split the A and the M (as was permissible) and OSU would have died without ever having been a gleam in the eye of the State Legislature. So, even the creation of OSU can be blamed on Miami. They do, indeed, suck!


Yes, Miami does indeed suck, and that's all that I was trying to say with this little thread and was a little taken aback by those who swiftly came to Miami's defense. Extremism in the service of pointing out Miami's suckitude is no vice.

As for the more serious issue of the attempted compromise, that must have happened before Hayes was Governor because my understanding of the history is that once he was in office, OSU was pretty much manifest destiny. He even went so far as to make a compromise with Cincinnati politicians and businessmen allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K population, which was only Cincy at the time. Cincinnati was subsequently able to cobble some existing colleges together and endow them as a singular municipal university while Hayes received their support in not only founding OSU but putting it in Columbus (away from the ag interests in Springfield) and giving it a comprehensive "classic" curriculum that included arts, sciences etc. Had he not made that compromise, there's a good chance that OSU would have been located in Springfield and under the thumb of the agricultural interests would have been much more of a practical "farmer training" school, which would have given Ohio (and Miami) much more breathing room to grow as comprehensive universities.


For caring little about or perhaps actually dispising them, you certainly have spent a great deal of time learning all about them.



Miami or OSU? I know a great deal about both and the history of higher education in Ohio. You do know that I worked for a state Senator on the higher education committee.


Which Senator and in what time period?



And besides, giving you a name proves nothing in the age of Google.


I have no idea what this means. Just wanted to know the name of the Senator to see what party he was in.

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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 1/31/2020 10:35:29 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
Well, it's also true that if Miami had been willing to compromise one session of the General Assembly earlier than actually happened, Ohio and Miami would have split the A and the M (as was permissible) and OSU would have died without ever having been a gleam in the eye of the State Legislature. So, even the creation of OSU can be blamed on Miami. They do, indeed, suck!


Yes, Miami does indeed suck, and that's all that I was trying to say with this little thread and was a little taken aback by those who swiftly came to Miami's defense. Extremism in the service of pointing out Miami's suckitude is no vice.

As for the more serious issue of the attempted compromise, that must have happened before Hayes was Governor because my understanding of the history is that once he was in office, OSU was pretty much manifest destiny. He even went so far as to make a compromise with Cincinnati politicians and businessmen allowing municipal universities in cities over 150K population, which was only Cincy at the time. Cincinnati was subsequently able to cobble some existing colleges together and endow them as a singular municipal university while Hayes received their support in not only founding OSU but putting it in Columbus (away from the ag interests in Springfield) and giving it a comprehensive "classic" curriculum that included arts, sciences etc. Had he not made that compromise, there's a good chance that OSU would have been located in Springfield and under the thumb of the agricultural interests would have been much more of a practical "farmer training" school, which would have given Ohio (and Miami) much more breathing room to grow as comprehensive universities.


For caring little about or perhaps actually dispising them, you certainly have spent a great deal of time learning all about them.



Miami or OSU? I know a great deal about both and the history of higher education in Ohio. You do know that I worked for a state Senator on the higher education committee.


Which Senator and in what time period?



And besides, giving you a name proves nothing in the age of Google.


I have no idea what this means. Just wanted to know the name of the Senator to see what party he was in.



Dem,though he worked closely with one of the most conservative Republican members of the Senate (Gene Watts) with whom he shared a common ground on higher ed issues.

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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 5,812

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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 2/1/2020 3:21:45 PM 
Quote:


Dem,though he worked closely with one of the most conservative Republican members of the Senate (Gene Watts) with whom he shared a common ground on higher ed issues.



Good old Gene, Gene the dancing machine. God rest his soul but he was far right before there was a far right. No friend of LGBT folks. On the flip side he was ahead of his time calling for accountability through state testing. A friend of mine and fellow Bobcat worked on one of his early campaigns.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 2/1/2020 11:51:16 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Quote:


Dem,though he worked closely with one of the most conservative Republican members of the Senate (Gene Watts) with whom he shared a common ground on higher ed issues.



Good old Gene, Gene the dancing machine. God rest his soul but he was far right before there was a far right. No friend of LGBT folks. On the flip side he was ahead of his time calling for accountability through state testing. A friend of mine and fellow Bobcat worked on one of his early campaigns.


By accountability through state testing, do you mean the state laws and policies that only public schools and public school students had to abide by? And now, voucher students have been exempted from. Kind of easy to always be seen as superior when you are not judge by the same standards.

https://fordhaminstitute.org/ohio/commentary/ohios-vouche...

The entire system is rigged to show public schools as failing and stacking the deck for success of private and charter schools. Today voucher students are not even held to the same standards of other students.

“ These are big losses, not just for policy wonks and researchers, but also for Ohio families and taxpayers. Vouchers are an integral part of a robust school choice system, but they’re still a taxpayer-funded option. The state has a fiscal responsibility to ensure that these funds are spent well, and that means ensuring that students who use vouchers are receiving a quality education compared to their public school peers”

Last Edited: 2/1/2020 11:55:13 PM by BillyTheCat

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 2/2/2020 9:29:37 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Quote:


Dem,though he worked closely with one of the most conservative Republican members of the Senate (Gene Watts) with whom he shared a common ground on higher ed issues.



Good old Gene, Gene the dancing machine. God rest his soul but he was far right before there was a far right. No friend of LGBT folks. On the flip side he was ahead of his time calling for accountability through state testing. A friend of mine and fellow Bobcat worked on one of his early campaigns.


Gene(Gene, Gene the Pancaking Machine) was pretty reprehensible on a lot of things, but he was good on higher ed reform and restructuring, and it was a time when pols could overlook their differences and work together on the things they did agree on. Unfortunately, Voinovich was not the Governor under whom to get anything constructive done with higher ed. He just viewed it as a piggy bank for his budget cuts. And of course, there's his famous address to the statewide Young Republicans convention where he went on talking about how his administration was going to turn all of I-71 into a giant Silicon Valley and in the very next sentence says, "and we'll get those professors out of their research labs and into your classrooms." Insert facepalm meme.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 2/2/2020 12:52:45 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Quote:


Dem,though he worked closely with one of the most conservative Republican members of the Senate (Gene Watts) with whom he shared a common ground on higher ed issues.



Good old Gene, Gene the dancing machine. God rest his soul but he was far right before there was a far right. No friend of LGBT folks. On the flip side he was ahead of his time calling for accountability through state testing. A friend of mine and fellow Bobcat worked on one of his early campaigns.


By accountability through state testing, do you mean the state laws and policies that only public schools and public school students had to abide by? And now, voucher students have been exempted from. Kind of easy to always be seen as superior when you are not judge by the same standards.

https://fordhaminstitute.org/ohio/commentary/ohios-vouche...

The entire system is rigged to show public schools as failing and stacking the deck for success of private and charter schools. Today voucher students are not even held to the same standards of other students.

“ These are big losses, not just for policy wonks and researchers, but also for Ohio families and taxpayers. Vouchers are an integral part of a robust school choice system, but they’re still a taxpayer-funded option. The state has a fiscal responsibility to ensure that these funds are spent well, and that means ensuring that students who use vouchers are receiving a quality education compared to their public school peers”


Not a fan of tax dollars going to any sort of private school. I am a fan of holding schools accountable in all phases of tax payer spending. I don't buy the union boilerplate mantra of "whoa are we." That and local control have set up great disparities in school offerings and performances. As an educator who has worked in several school districts, you're well aware of that. As for what the Fordham article points out, I'm sure our local boy Jay voted to change the rules that are far from being beneficial to his constituents. When you're Larry's lapdog, you go along with the master.

Last Edited: 2/2/2020 12:55:10 PM by Alan Swank

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 2/2/2020 6:43:02 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Quote:


Dem,though he worked closely with one of the most conservative Republican members of the Senate (Gene Watts) with whom he shared a common ground on higher ed issues.



Good old Gene, Gene the dancing machine. God rest his soul but he was far right before there was a far right. No friend of LGBT folks. On the flip side he was ahead of his time calling for accountability through state testing. A friend of mine and fellow Bobcat worked on one of his early campaigns.


By accountability through state testing, do you mean the state laws and policies that only public schools and public school students had to abide by? And now, voucher students have been exempted from. Kind of easy to always be seen as superior when you are not judge by the same standards.

https://fordhaminstitute.org/ohio/commentary/ohios-vouche...

The entire system is rigged to show public schools as failing and stacking the deck for success of private and charter schools. Today voucher students are not even held to the same standards of other students.

“ These are big losses, not just for policy wonks and researchers, but also for Ohio families and taxpayers. Vouchers are an integral part of a robust school choice system, but they’re still a taxpayer-funded option. The state has a fiscal responsibility to ensure that these funds are spent well, and that means ensuring that students who use vouchers are receiving a quality education compared to their public school peers”


Not a fan of tax dollars going to any sort of private school. I am a fan of holding schools accountable in all phases of tax payer spending. I don't buy the union boilerplate mantra of "whoa are we." That and local control have set up great disparities in school offerings and performances. As an educator who has worked in several school districts, you're well aware of that. As for what the Fordham article points out, I'm sure our local boy Jay voted to change the rules that are far from being beneficial to his constituents. When you're Larry's lapdog, you go along with the master.


Well, the state legislature doesn’t care what you think (or anyone not lining their pockets), bottom line, privates are rewarded for not being judged by the same standards and test, which have been designed by non-educators for the most part. So no offense, but no one cares what any of us think. And yes Jay voted against public tax payers. Interesting you seem to believe teachers unions are at fault here.

Last Edited: 2/2/2020 6:44:53 PM by BillyTheCat

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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Is It Real Or Is It The Onion: Miami of Ohio Edition
   Posted: 2/4/2020 8:00:04 PM 
Quote:


Well, the state legislature doesn’t care what you think (or anyone not lining their pockets), bottom line, privates are rewarded for not being judged by the same standards and test, which have been designed by non-educators for the most part. So no offense, but no one cares what any of us think. And yes Jay voted against public tax payers. Interesting you seem to believe teachers unions are at fault here.



I left out a word - what I meant to say was "I don't buy the union leadership's boilerplate mantra of "whoa are we." including Randi Weingarten's piece in every Sunday's NY Times. In no way shape or form did I say or imply that teachers unions, i.e., their rank and file membership, are or were at fault.
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