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Topic:  The Last Dance

Topic:  The Last Dance
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  The Last Dance
   Posted: 4/19/2020 11:10:10 PM 
I'm hoping all of the hoops fanatics on here under the age of 35 are watching the ESPN documentary that started tonight. LBJ is the GOAT of this generation but he is not THE GOAT.
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OhioBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 4/19/2020 11:40:18 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
I'm hoping all of the hoops fanatics on here under the age of 35 are watching the ESPN documentary that started tonight. LBJ is the GOAT of this generation but he is not THE GOAT.


I couldn't agree more.
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 4/20/2020 12:07:05 AM 
OhioBobcat wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
I'm hoping all of the hoops fanatics on here under the age of 35 are watching the ESPN documentary that started tonight. LBJ is the GOAT of this generation but he is not THE GOAT.


I couldn't agree more.


And the funny thing....it's not even close. MJ>LeBron




#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 4/20/2020 11:49:47 AM 
I'm 35 and I grew up in NE Ohio, so I went to a lot of Cavs games that featured Price, Daughtery, Brandon, Ehlo, Nance and even the weird years with Sura, Kemp and Potopenko. I vividly remember them getting victimized by Jordan over and over and over. And the thing was, you were afraid of it because you knew you couldn't stop it. I still think the Cavs' biggest mistake was trading Ron Harper way before they should have. His defensive prowess later on his career got better and better and he could have "helped" against MJ and the Bulls.

Flash forward and LeBron and I are about the same age. I saw him play all throughout high school and I thought eventually we were seeing what could be the best player ever. I've never seen a guy that size move that fast with a handle and court vision and raw strength (other than the Magic comparison). Eventually he's gonna overtake Jordan right?

I've said it 1,000 times I've thought LeBron was the better player. But man, I don't even think I can convince myself anymore. MJ was a DOG. He was a KILLER. LeBron always makes the right basketball play. MJ makes the winning basketball play. There's a HUGE difference in that.

I don't think LeBron, for as great as he is, has ever had that "I'm better than you and it's time for me to show it" killer instinct outside of a handful of times. MJ had that every game. Even preseason and middling regular season games. He ruined guys' careers.

I mean, the guy put up over 100 in two games on a trash team vs the #1 seed Celtics in his second year. A Celtics team that went on to win the title.



Last Edited: 4/20/2020 11:53:16 AM by GoCats105

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Mark Lembright '85
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 4/20/2020 1:29:00 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
I'm 35 and I grew up in NE Ohio, so I went to a lot of Cavs games that featured Price, Daughtery, Brandon, Ehlo, Nance and even the weird years with Sura, Kemp and Potopenko. I vividly remember them getting victimized by Jordan over and over and over. And the thing was, you were afraid of it because you knew you couldn't stop it. I still think the Cavs' biggest mistake was trading Ron Harper way before they should have. His defensive prowess later on his career got better and better and he could have "helped" against MJ and the Bulls.

Flash forward and LeBron and I are about the same age. I saw him play all throughout high school and I thought eventually we were seeing what could be the best player ever. I've never seen a guy that size move that fast with a handle and court vision and raw strength (other than the Magic comparison). Eventually he's gonna overtake Jordan right?

I've said it 1,000 times I've thought LeBron was the better player. But man, I don't even think I can convince myself anymore. MJ was a DOG. He was a KILLER. LeBron always makes the right basketball play. MJ makes the winning basketball play. There's a HUGE difference in that.

I don't think LeBron, for as great as he is, has ever had that "I'm better than you and it's time for me to show it" killer instinct outside of a handful of times. MJ had that every game. Even preseason and middling regular season games. He ruined guys' careers.

I mean, the guy put up over 100 in two games on a trash team vs the #1 seed Celtics in his second year. A Celtics team that went on to win the title.





Agreed! I even go back to the CAVS' days of the Miracle in Richfield-you want to talk LOUD crowd!

I always found the MJ vs. LBJ arguments interesting, who's the best player. I think there are 2 different angles to this, both taking natural ability into account; who has the best all-around basketball skill versus the best competitor. I think most would agree that comes to all around basketball skill, LBJ is better (better rebounder, passer) but isn't anywhere near MJ when it comes to competitor. MJ was an assassin and proud of it, day in and day out. Doesn't make LBJ any less of a player, because other than maybe Kobe in the modern era, no one else had or has MJ's drive. No one.

And as to overall "ability", I think Magic and Oscar need to be in the mix too when it comes to talk of greatest of all time.

Last Edited: 4/20/2020 1:29:23 PM by Mark Lembright '85

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OhioBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 4/20/2020 7:57:35 PM 
GoCats105 wrote:
But man, I don't even think I can convince myself anymore. MJ was a DOG. He was a KILLER. LeBron always makes the right basketball play. MJ makes the winning basketball play. There's a HUGE difference in that.


Well said.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 4/21/2020 12:21:47 AM 
FearLeon wrote:
OhioBobcat wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
I'm hoping all of the hoops fanatics on here under the age of 35 are watching the ESPN documentary that started tonight. LBJ is the GOAT of this generation but he is not THE GOAT.


I couldn't agree more.


And the funny thing....it's not even close. MJ>LeBron


Does it really matter? It's like arguing if Zeus or Odin is more powerful.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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OU_Country
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Location: On US33 between Athens and Madison Co., OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 4/21/2020 10:45:29 AM 
JSF wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
OhioBobcat wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
I'm hoping all of the hoops fanatics on here under the age of 35 are watching the ESPN documentary that started tonight. LBJ is the GOAT of this generation but he is not THE GOAT.


I couldn't agree more.


And the funny thing....it's not even close. MJ>LeBron


Does it really matter? It's like arguing if Zeus or Odin is more powerful.


+1. It doesn't matter. It's just unnecessarily ESPN'ing about something.

I'm probably an old man in this mind set, but I dislike using "GOAT" with the frequency that sports fans seem to like to these days. I've never been a believer that there is a "greatest of all time" -- in any sport, at any level. Sure, you can make argument for why one guy is, but unless they played head to head for a few years, there's really no way to truly determine it. And at that point, it's just opinion and conjecture.

MJ, Lebron, Kobe -- all among the best we've ever seen. But so were Magic, Larry, and others.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 4/21/2020 1:29:43 PM 
After one of Roger Federer's Wimbledon titles, Rod Laver was asked if Roger was the best of all-time. He had the best answer to that: All you can do is be the best player in your era.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/3/2020 11:14:40 PM 
Two thoughts after watching parts 5 and 6 tonight:

1. I'll take MJ over LBJ every time with one important exception - I love how LBJ doesn't shy away from speaking out against social injustices, not unlike Ali. Wish MJ had used his enormous platform to do the same.

2. I recall watching Ron Harper and Dan Majerle, both profiled tonight, play against Ohio in the Convo, as did other posters on here. Back when the MAC had some future NBA players.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/4/2020 9:47:46 AM 
OU_Country wrote:
JSF wrote:
FearLeon wrote:
OhioBobcat wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
I'm hoping all of the hoops fanatics on here under the age of 35 are watching the ESPN documentary that started tonight. LBJ is the GOAT of this generation but he is not THE GOAT.


I couldn't agree more.


And the funny thing....it's not even close. MJ>LeBron


Does it really matter? It's like arguing if Zeus or Odin is more powerful.


+1. It doesn't matter. It's just unnecessarily ESPN'ing about something.

I'm probably an old man in this mind set, but I dislike using "GOAT" with the frequency that sports fans seem to like to these days. I've never been a believer that there is a "greatest of all time" -- in any sport, at any level. Sure, you can make argument for why one guy is, but unless they played head to head for a few years, there's really no way to truly determine it. And at that point, it's just opinion and conjecture.

MJ, Lebron, Kobe -- all among the best we've ever seen. But so were Magic, Larry, and others.


Could not have said it better. In my day a goat was the guy who let the ball go between his legs for what would have been the last out of the game and or the guy who called time out at the end of the game when his team didn't have any. Not a big fan of acronyms anyway. Sat in too many meetings where they got thrown around like candy and you felt foolish if you didn't know what they were.

And as for the best there every was, well . . .

https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/3b72a126-74fe-4b3d-944e-f6ebb09...

Last Edited: 5/4/2020 9:49:06 AM by Alan Swank

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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/4/2020 11:00:22 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
Two thoughts after watching parts 5 and 6 tonight:

1. I'll take MJ over LBJ every time with one important exception - I love how LBJ doesn't shy away from speaking out against social injustices, not unlike Ali. Wish MJ had used his enormous platform to do the same.


How did LeBron's political stance on China go over? Call me crazy....but I watch these guys for sports enjoyment. I could care less about their politics.


#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/4/2020 11:36:53 AM 
Yes, he messed up on China.
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5KMD
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/4/2020 1:57:08 PM 
A difficult part in comparing current players with past players is that we forget the bad games of the past players and never see them again. My 11 year old son will never see a bad play from Jordan unless he goes back and watches entire games. Only highlights of MJ anymore. We deify the past players. Mike Trout is probably better than Mickey Mantle but the Mick has that yesteryear aura to him.

That being said, watching the Last Dance has made me remember how good of a shooter MJ became. He'd shoot over 40% from three in today's game with his work ethic and the priority of that shot now.

Tough call. I think Lebron cares about more stuff in his life other than basketball. MJ only cared about hoops at a similar point in his career.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/4/2020 2:32:35 PM 
FearLeon wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
Two thoughts after watching parts 5 and 6 tonight:

1. I'll take MJ over LBJ every time with one important exception - I love how LBJ doesn't shy away from speaking out against social injustices, not unlike Ali. Wish MJ had used his enormous platform to do the same.


How did LeBron's political stance on China go over? Call me crazy....but I watch these guys for sports enjoyment. I could care less about their politics.



Agreed. MJ just wanted to play basketball. I have no issue with that.
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 8:56:37 AM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
I love how LBJ doesn't shy away from speaking out against social injustices, not unlike Ali. Wish MJ had used his enormous platform to do the same.


You are very much in the minority here. The vast majority of us wishes our favorite athletes remain silent on all that crap.


Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 9:54:12 AM 
That's OK.

I appreciate those in the spotlight, be it athletes, actors, musicians, etc. . . who use their platform to speak out against social injustices. Me being in the minority doesn't change that. And I wouldn't call what Ali, Bill Russell, LBJ and others have spoken out against as "crap". Although, as stated earlier, LBJ's original stance concerning China was a swing and miss.

Last Edited: 5/5/2020 9:57:12 AM by bobcatsquared

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UpSan Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 9:56:13 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
I love how LBJ doesn't shy away from speaking out against social injustices, not unlike Ali. Wish MJ had used his enormous platform to do the same.


You are very much in the minority here. The vast majority of us wishes our favorite athletes remain silent on all that crap.


I'm happy to see players speak out about injustices and other world issues so long as it doesn't turn political, which is a very fine line.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 11:12:27 AM 
UpSan Bobcat wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
I love how LBJ doesn't shy away from speaking out against social injustices, not unlike Ali. Wish MJ had used his enormous platform to do the same.


You are very much in the minority here. The vast majority of us wishes our favorite athletes remain silent on all that crap.


I'm happy to see players speak out about injustices and other world issues so long as it doesn't turn political, which is a very fine line.


I would agree with that -- and it is a fine line. That being said, my favorite athlete of all time was Ernie Banks, and he hardly ever said anything about social issues. However, in retirement he started a foundation that helped children, especially those from the inner city, with self-esteem issues. He was more a man of action than words when it came to helping other people.

Last Edited: 5/5/2020 11:13:10 AM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 11:43:16 AM 
The Great Ernie Banks . . . Mr. Cub

If he was still alive during this pandemic, I wonder if he would modify his signature line to "What a beautiful day. Let's play one."

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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 1:10:44 PM 
UpSan Bobcat wrote:

I'm happy to see players speak out about injustices and other world issues so long as it doesn't turn political, which is a very fine line.


Most people like hearing players and entertainers speak out on issues...as long as they agree with them on said issues.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 1:15:35 PM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
I love how LBJ doesn't shy away from speaking out against social injustices, not unlike Ali. Wish MJ had used his enormous platform to do the same.


You are very much in the minority here. The vast majority of us wishes our favorite athletes remain silent on all that crap.


Speak for yourself, I love when athletes use their ability for the greater good. I bet you didnít mind Burrow when he spoke out against hunger in Appalachia. What it usually boils down too is people not liking the cause.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 1:16:47 PM 
OUVan wrote:
UpSan Bobcat wrote:

I'm happy to see players speak out about injustices and other world issues so long as it doesn't turn political, which is a very fine line.


Most people like hearing players and entertainers speak out on issues...as long as they agree with them on said issues.


As Russ would say: BANG!
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 1:45:19 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Andrew Ruck wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
I love how LBJ doesn't shy away from speaking out against social injustices, not unlike Ali. Wish MJ had used his enormous platform to do the same.


You are very much in the minority here. The vast majority of us wishes our favorite athletes remain silent on all that crap.


Speak for yourself, I love when athletes use their ability for the greater good. I bet you didnít mind Burrow when he spoke out against hunger in Appalachia. What it usually boils down too is people not liking the cause.


I respect someone who has it made and still can find time to speak out about social injustice. If you had enough money that you never had to work again, would you help others in such a way? Would you give a voice to those who have none? Would you do good for the world? Would you send the elevator back down for others?

The world has little use for "shut up and dribble" kind of people.
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: The Last Dance
   Posted: 5/5/2020 2:43:23 PM 
The problem I have is when these high profile athletes are more or less expected to have an opinion and be the leader on such matters. It should be their choice on whether or not to have a voice, not forced to pick a side.
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