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General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events Topic
Topic: The budget and faculty unrest
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Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/18/2019 5:46 PM
Athens
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Posted: 11/19/2019 9:30 AM
A couple of big cost increase items missing from the paper; the increase of medical liability over the past 40 years and the 2% annual inflation which has to be figured into goods and services purchased by the university. The level of construction on campus has an impact and it intensified since the mid 90's.
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shabamon
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Posted: 11/19/2019 4:31 PM
Quote:expand_more
At the very least, there should be a reduction in the athletics subsidy proportional to the current decline in enrollment revenue.
Reasonable consideration. I can understand where that's coming from.

Quote:expand_more
In the longer term, we might consider moving to an
NCAA division that does not require the same level of funding.
Short-sighted suggestion. Would cause a domino effect that would cripple the university and city in ways that I don't believe faculty are ready to acknowledge.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/19/2019 4:34 PM
shabamon wrote:expand_more
At the very least, there should be a reduction in the athletics subsidy proportional to the current decline in enrollment revenue.
Reasonable consideration. I can understand where that's coming from.

In the longer term, we might consider moving to an
NCAA division that does not require the same level of funding.
Short-sighted suggestion. Would cause a domino effect that would cripple the university and city in ways that I don't believe faculty are ready to acknowledge.
Your first point is already happening and takes care of itself. Fewere students means fewer fees means a smaller budget.

The second point I've heard before but have yet to see if fully explained and backed up with anecdotal evidence. I think all they are saying is take football to I AA where budgets are less than D I.
Athens
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Posted: 11/19/2019 6:36 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
At the very least, there should be a reduction in the athletics subsidy proportional to the current decline in enrollment revenue.
Reasonable consideration. I can understand where that's coming from.

In the longer term, we might consider moving to an
NCAA division that does not require the same level of funding.
Short-sighted suggestion. Would cause a domino effect that would cripple the university and city in ways that I don't believe faculty are ready to acknowledge.
Your first point is already happening and takes care of itself. Fewere students means fewer fees means a smaller budget.

The second point I've heard before but have yet to see if fully explained and backed up with anecdotal evidence. I think all they are saying is take football to I AA where budgets are less than D I.
What so we can go from a coach that makes $524k to an FCS coach making $324k? Save a few hundred thousand while taking a sharp cut in revenue. If there was a way to keep football "around" without a big investment the model we have now is it.
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2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Fiami @ Peden with 25,086 fans
2023 10-7 near shutout of Iowa State @ Solich Field
2025 17-10 defeat of WVU @ Peden in front of 26,740
shabamon
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Posted: 11/20/2019 9:52 AM
Quote:expand_more
Faculty hiring has also remained flat relative to the number of faculty per student. The graph below illustrates this trend, showing a constant faculty-to-student ratio. There has not been 13 any general expansion of the faculty relative to students taught. The conclusion to draw from
these two factors—no increase in faculty wages in inflation-adjusted terms and no increase in the number of faculty per student—is that O.U. spending on direct education in inflation-adjusted terms has not changed substantially on a per student basis since the late 1970s despite a sharp increase in tuition and fees during this same period.

If spending on faculty salaries and the number of FTE faculty per student have remained constant over time despite significant increases in inflation-adjusted tuition and fees, what else might account for O.U.’s increased spending and its budget shortfall? The exponential growth in non-classified administrator ranks is one very real possibility. O.U. has seen a dramatic increase in the administration during the past 25 years. The graph below shows the spike in FTE administrators per FTE student and compares it with the stasis in the number of FTE faculty for every FTE student as shown in the graph above. In addition to earlier large increases, the 14 years since roughly 2010 have seen a 45 percent increase in FTE administrators per FTE
student.

The primary takeaway is that, since 1979, O.U. has made no major new investments in the direct teaching mission on a per student basis even though inflation-adjusted tuition and revenue at the University have raced upward during the same period. The sharp increase in administrators indicates much of the increases in revenue per-student has quite possibly gone toward the administrative structure rather than O.U.’s mission of teaching and research. In short, this is a story of how administration started eating the University.

Note, that over this same time period there has been a drop in FTE classified staff (hourly employees—e.g. clerical staff, maintenance staff, technicians) per FTE student. So the relative shift in resources has been away from both faculty and classified staff toward regular administrators.
The graphs corresponding with this section are eye-opening. All the blame placed on coaching salaries from, let's call it, the Athens News crowd comes off as scapegoating. This, in my opinion, is what needs to be examined the most. Just how many senior associate directors does Ohio University need?
Last Edited: 11/20/2019 9:54:23 AM by shabamon
Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/20/2019 10:02 AM
shabamon wrote:expand_more
Faculty hiring has also remained flat relative to the number of faculty per student. The graph below illustrates this trend, showing a constant faculty-to-student ratio. There has not been 13 any general expansion of the faculty relative to students taught. The conclusion to draw from
these two factors—no increase in faculty wages in inflation-adjusted terms and no increase in the number of faculty per student—is that O.U. spending on direct education in inflation-adjusted terms has not changed substantially on a per student basis since the late 1970s despite a sharp increase in tuition and fees during this same period.

If spending on faculty salaries and the number of FTE faculty per student have remained constant over time despite significant increases in inflation-adjusted tuition and fees, what else might account for O.U.’s increased spending and its budget shortfall? The exponential growth in non-classified administrator ranks is one very real possibility. O.U. has seen a dramatic increase in the administration during the past 25 years. The graph below shows the spike in FTE administrators per FTE student and compares it with the stasis in the number of FTE faculty for every FTE student as shown in the graph above. In addition to earlier large increases, the 14 years since roughly 2010 have seen a 45 percent increase in FTE administrators per FTE
student.

The primary takeaway is that, since 1979, O.U. has made no major new investments in the direct teaching mission on a per student basis even though inflation-adjusted tuition and revenue at the University have raced upward during the same period. The sharp increase in administrators indicates much of the increases in revenue per-student has quite possibly gone toward the administrative structure rather than O.U.’s mission of teaching and research. In short, this is a story of how administration started eating the University.

Note, that over this same time period there has been a drop in FTE classified staff (hourly employees—e.g. clerical staff, maintenance staff, technicians) per FTE student. So the relative shift in resources has been away from both faculty and classified staff toward regular administrators.
The graphs corresponding with this section are eye-opening. All the blame placed on coaching salaries from, let's call it, the Athens News crowd comes off as scapegoating. This, in my opinion, is what needs to be examined the most. Just how many senior associate directors does Ohio University need?
Considering that the ANews is the only worthwhile paper in town, I guess you can put me in the ANews crowd whatever that means. That said, I agree 100% with your assessment in the bloat in administrators in all departments of the university. By the way, the Messenger is advertising for a new editor.
shabamon
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Posted: 11/20/2019 10:05 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Faculty hiring has also remained flat relative to the number of faculty per student. The graph below illustrates this trend, showing a constant faculty-to-student ratio. There has not been 13 any general expansion of the faculty relative to students taught. The conclusion to draw from
these two factors—no increase in faculty wages in inflation-adjusted terms and no increase in the number of faculty per student—is that O.U. spending on direct education in inflation-adjusted terms has not changed substantially on a per student basis since the late 1970s despite a sharp increase in tuition and fees during this same period.

If spending on faculty salaries and the number of FTE faculty per student have remained constant over time despite significant increases in inflation-adjusted tuition and fees, what else might account for O.U.’s increased spending and its budget shortfall? The exponential growth in non-classified administrator ranks is one very real possibility. O.U. has seen a dramatic increase in the administration during the past 25 years. The graph below shows the spike in FTE administrators per FTE student and compares it with the stasis in the number of FTE faculty for every FTE student as shown in the graph above. In addition to earlier large increases, the 14 years since roughly 2010 have seen a 45 percent increase in FTE administrators per FTE
student.

The primary takeaway is that, since 1979, O.U. has made no major new investments in the direct teaching mission on a per student basis even though inflation-adjusted tuition and revenue at the University have raced upward during the same period. The sharp increase in administrators indicates much of the increases in revenue per-student has quite possibly gone toward the administrative structure rather than O.U.’s mission of teaching and research. In short, this is a story of how administration started eating the University.

Note, that over this same time period there has been a drop in FTE classified staff (hourly employees—e.g. clerical staff, maintenance staff, technicians) per FTE student. So the relative shift in resources has been away from both faculty and classified staff toward regular administrators.
The graphs corresponding with this section are eye-opening. All the blame placed on coaching salaries from, let's call it, the Athens News crowd comes off as scapegoating. This, in my opinion, is what needs to be examined the most. Just how many senior associate directors does Ohio University need?
Considering that the ANews is the only worthwhile paper in town, I guess you can put me in the ANews crowd whatever that means. That said, I agree 100% with your assessment in the bloat in administrators in all departments of the university. By the way, the Messenger is advertising for a new editor.
You prefer the ANews over the Messenger?
Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/20/2019 10:58 AM
shabamon wrote:expand_more
Faculty hiring has also remained flat relative to the number of faculty per student. The graph below illustrates this trend, showing a constant faculty-to-student ratio. There has not been 13 any general expansion of the faculty relative to students taught. The conclusion to draw from
these two factors—no increase in faculty wages in inflation-adjusted terms and no increase in the number of faculty per student—is that O.U. spending on direct education in inflation-adjusted terms has not changed substantially on a per student basis since the late 1970s despite a sharp increase in tuition and fees during this same period.

If spending on faculty salaries and the number of FTE faculty per student have remained constant over time despite significant increases in inflation-adjusted tuition and fees, what else might account for O.U.’s increased spending and its budget shortfall? The exponential growth in non-classified administrator ranks is one very real possibility. O.U. has seen a dramatic increase in the administration during the past 25 years. The graph below shows the spike in FTE administrators per FTE student and compares it with the stasis in the number of FTE faculty for every FTE student as shown in the graph above. In addition to earlier large increases, the 14 years since roughly 2010 have seen a 45 percent increase in FTE administrators per FTE
student.

The primary takeaway is that, since 1979, O.U. has made no major new investments in the direct teaching mission on a per student basis even though inflation-adjusted tuition and revenue at the University have raced upward during the same period. The sharp increase in administrators indicates much of the increases in revenue per-student has quite possibly gone toward the administrative structure rather than O.U.’s mission of teaching and research. In short, this is a story of how administration started eating the University.

Note, that over this same time period there has been a drop in FTE classified staff (hourly employees—e.g. clerical staff, maintenance staff, technicians) per FTE student. So the relative shift in resources has been away from both faculty and classified staff toward regular administrators.
The graphs corresponding with this section are eye-opening. All the blame placed on coaching salaries from, let's call it, the Athens News crowd comes off as scapegoating. This, in my opinion, is what needs to be examined the most. Just how many senior associate directors does Ohio University need?
Considering that the ANews is the only worthwhile paper in town, I guess you can put me in the ANews crowd whatever that means. That said, I agree 100% with your assessment in the bloat in administrators in all departments of the university. By the way, the Messenger is advertising for a new editor.
You prefer the ANews over the Messenger?
No comparison. When is the last time you read an indepth story in the Messenger plus Friday's news might be in Sunday's paper and Sunday's news might be in Tuesday's paper. The folks out there are fine - they are just part of a large conglomerate that is very far removed from "local news."
Last Edited: 11/20/2019 11:00:44 AM by Alan Swank
Ohio69
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Posted: 11/20/2019 12:42 PM
I don't think we learned anything new from this AAUP document. The Higher Education industry (including OU) has more non-faculty than 40 years ago. And the AAUP doesn't like athletics. Hell Richard Vedder is mini-celebrity for just saying that over and over for like a decade+ now. Am I missing something?
Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....
Last Edited: 11/20/2019 12:43:43 PM by Ohio69
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 11/20/2019 9:57 PM
I'm in Alden Library working right now and AAUP has blanketed the library with propaganda sheets on these issues.

In my opinion, the complaining would be happening even if we were Div III.

There has been a lot of complaining lately about Boals' and Solich's salaries....and based on conversations I've overheard, it's largely coming from people who have little knowledge of athletics. That said, it is hard to rationally justify coaches being the highest paid employees of ANY school. But since I like athletics, I'm not on the AAUP side.
Last Edited: 11/20/2019 10:02:06 PM by Jeff McKinney
Athens
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Posted: 11/20/2019 11:17 PM
The consideration I'd say is less that Solich & Boals salaries are super high which they aren't for a university competing in a Top 10 Division 1 conference as much as they are in the upper range of reasonable given the mission of the university. For this reason I don't think we will see another 500% increase in head coaching salaries as we have since 2000 moving forward.
Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Fiami @ Peden with 25,086 fans
2023 10-7 near shutout of Iowa State @ Solich Field
2025 17-10 defeat of WVU @ Peden in front of 26,740
Last Edited: 11/20/2019 11:18:39 PM by Athens
Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/25/2019 10:05 AM
Interesting article in today's Post. Click on the link ($500,000) in the article. It lists the salaries of 4371 people at OU. Lots of administration.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/11/budget-cris...
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 11/25/2019 12:33 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Interesting article in today's Post. Click on the link ($500,000) in the article. It lists the salaries of 4371 people at OU. Lots of administration.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/11/budget-cris...
$249,000 for the President's Chief of Staff???? Are you freaking kidding?

117 people making over $150K and 80% of them do not have daily contact with a student or education

538 making over $100K
Last Edited: 11/25/2019 12:42:24 PM by BillyTheCat
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 11/25/2019 12:35 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Interesting article in today's Post. Click on the link ($500,000) in the article. It lists the salaries of 4371 people at OU. Lots of administration.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/11/budget-cris...
$249,000 for the President's Chief of Staff???? Are you freaking kidding?

117 people making over $150K and 80% of them do not have daily contact with a student or education
Chief of Staff in an org this large is typically equivalent to a COO. Somebody who runs day-to-day operations; that's particularly common in roles where a President's main function is around fund raising, etc. That's a very senior role.
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Posted: 11/25/2019 12:45 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
Interesting article in today's Post. Click on the link ($500,000) in the article. It lists the salaries of 4371 people at OU. Lots of administration.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/11/budget-cris...
$249,000 for the President's Chief of Staff???? Are you freaking kidding?

117 people making over $150K and 80% of them do not have daily contact with a student or education
Chief of Staff in an org this large is typically equivalent to a COO. Somebody who runs day-to-day operations; that's particularly common in roles where a President's main function is around fund raising, etc. That's a very senior role.
I know what a Chief of Staff is, I do not agree with the need for a position at such a high salary. I am sure we will disagree on that, but truth is, OHIO has the 2nd highest tuition in Ohio, and our academic reputation has not kept pace with the bloat of upper level management. The question is what has been the return on this investment towards the actual clients of this University.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 11/25/2019 12:50 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Interesting article in today's Post. Click on the link ($500,000) in the article. It lists the salaries of 4371 people at OU. Lots of administration.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/11/budget-cris...
$249,000 for the President's Chief of Staff???? Are you freaking kidding?

117 people making over $150K and 80% of them do not have daily contact with a student or education
Chief of Staff in an org this large is typically equivalent to a COO. Somebody who runs day-to-day operations; that's particularly common in roles where a President's main function is around fund raising, etc. That's a very senior role.
I know what a Chief of Staff is, I do not agree with the need for a position at such a high salary. I am sure we will disagree on that, but truth is, OHIO has the 2nd highest tuition in Ohio, and our academic reputation has not kept pace with the bloat of upper level management. The question is what has been the return on this investment towards the actual clients of this University.
What role does the Chief of Staff play in this case? What are her main responsibilities and ultimately how responsible is she for our academic reputation?

I don't pretend to be an expert in higher ed, but my father was Dean of Faculty of a public college and academic rankings were one of the primary ways his performance was measured. I would think that would fall more on the Dean's office than President's, but like I said, I'm not an expert.
Last Edited: 11/25/2019 12:52:07 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 11/25/2019 2:01 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Interesting article in today's Post. Click on the link ($500,000) in the article. It lists the salaries of 4371 people at OU. Lots of administration.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/11/budget-cris...
$249,000 for the President's Chief of Staff???? Are you freaking kidding?

117 people making over $150K and 80% of them do not have daily contact with a student or education

538 making over $100K
+1

There's a lot of bloat in higher education, but it's not just an OHIO problem. It's an epidemic. It's not long ago that the president's chief of staff was his secretary, not a $250K assistant. And, I'll bet that that assistant has an assistant, and each of them has a secretary.
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Posted: 11/25/2019 2:09 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Interesting article in today's Post. Click on the link ($500,000) in the article. It lists the salaries of 4371 people at OU. Lots of administration.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/11/budget-cris...
$249,000 for the President's Chief of Staff???? Are you freaking kidding?

117 people making over $150K and 80% of them do not have daily contact with a student or education

538 making over $100K
+1

There's a lot of bloat in higher education, but it's not just an OHIO problem. It's an epidemic. It's not long ago that the president's chief of staff was his secretary, not a $250K assistant. And, I'll bet that that assistant has an assistant, and each of them has a secretary.
Exactly, I can name the last couple, good people, did a great job and did so for good money but not obscene money for the job.

As to the other comment on our academic reputation, in the undergrad world, I am not seeing results that correspond with the price of these people. We are set up like a Fortune 500 Company, problem is we are not and should not be in that model, we have Presidents, VP, COO’s, CFO’s and 400 others and at the end of the day the University still implements stupid practices like billing each other for time and materials.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 11/25/2019 2:21 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Interesting article in today's Post. Click on the link ($500,000) in the article. It lists the salaries of 4371 people at OU. Lots of administration.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/11/budget-cris...
$249,000 for the President's Chief of Staff???? Are you freaking kidding?

117 people making over $150K and 80% of them do not have daily contact with a student or education

538 making over $100K
+1

There's a lot of bloat in higher education, but it's not just an OHIO problem. It's an epidemic. It's not long ago that the president's chief of staff was his secretary, not a $250K assistant. And, I'll bet that that assistant has an assistant, and each of them has a secretary.
Exactly, I can name the last couple, good people, did a great job and did so for good money but not obscene money for the job.

As to the other comment on our academic reputation, in the undergrad world, I am not seeing results that correspond with the price of these people. We are set up like a Fortune 500 Company, problem is we are not and should not be in that model, we have Presidents, VP, COO’s, CFO’s and 400 others and at the end of the day the University still implements stupid practices like billing each other for time and materials.
Presumably we're set up that way -- or at least, started down that road -- because of need, right? I mean, Fortune 500 company or not, the university still has ~3,000 employees. That creates a need for departments like HR, Finance, etc.

Not saying there's not bloat, I just wouldn't even know where to start trying to figure out who is essential, who isn't, and who deserves to be cut as a result of our academic rankings slipping. And until I know where to start, color me hesitant to single out a particular employee and call her overpaid.
Last Edited: 11/25/2019 2:24:32 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 11/25/2019 2:22 PM
As I've posted,I work with FDU,including Chairing their Industrial Advisory Committee for Civil Engineering and Civil and Construction Engineering Technology programs.

That has given me a chance to see first hand the "bloat" in higher education.

F.D.U. is a private university.So they doen't have the same kind of taxpayer money as a public institution.

We rely on tuition.
So I figured that they'd be less "top heavy".

Nah.
Just as many deans,asst.deans,chairs,co chairs,administrators etc..
About the only thing they don't have a lot of are tenured professors who actually teach.

They rely on adjuncts.
Adjunct seems to be a synonym for low pay,no benefits.
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Posted: 11/25/2019 2:22 PM
New Political and The Post are covering the protest going on now. You can find updates on their Twitter accounts or @ufunfacts
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 11/25/2019 2:31 PM
rpbobcat wrote:expand_more
They rely on adjuncts.
Adjunct seems to be a synonym for low pay,no benefits.
This is correct. More and more, universities rely on adjuncts. Most are W2 employees so would become eligible for benefits at a certain hour threshold, so schools work to avoid giving them a class schedule that leads to 30+ hours per week.

Also worth noting that adjuncts are only paid for in-class time, which makes it easier to keep them below the benefits threshold.
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Posted: 11/25/2019 2:47 PM
ChiCat2018 wrote:expand_more
New Political and The Post are covering the protest going on now. You can find updates on their Twitter accounts or @ufunfacts
Nothing wrong with students making their feelings known.

Thing is,I don't know how much their protest,whose size didn't look awe inspiring on the webcam,will accomplish.
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Posted: 11/25/2019 6:02 PM
There's a ton of grift in the college game. I've been complaining about this for a while. We need great teachers, not more administrators. Not sure how we fix this.

I'd rather the faculty union focus on that and not athletic spending. They're getting distracted by their own shinies; I suspect they're scared of taking on the administration.
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