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General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events Topic
Topic: The enrollment decline is for real
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BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/7/2019 10:45 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From the Post. At the end of the article the university is beginning to see the effects of CC+ students.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/10/transfer-ra...
Where do you see that CC+ students are having an effect? By the increase in 3 year graduation rates? That's a positive.
In this quote and in conversation with a recently retired dean or regional high education. While it may be saving families money, CC+ is killing the branch campus enrollments not to mention grossly inflating GPAs in high schools with weighted grades. Take for example your school - Athens High - I would much rather have a student enrolled there taking a CC+ class than at OU.

"Furthermore, there is a small dip in students who are staying at the university for four years, which also affects revenue."

“Ohio University has maintained four-year retention rates between 66 and 69% since 2010 and has a record-high 81.5% retention rate for second-year students in the Fall of 2019,” Jim Sabin, a university spokesperson, said in an email. “While we have seen a slight increase in the three-year graduation rate, it is a very small population.”
Good luck finding someone the University will accredit for teaching CC+ at the schools. My building actually have people who are adjuncts on campus, but the University will not allow them to teach CC+ at the local schools. By State law any college class has to be credited at the highest lGPA level

And are those figures a typo, down almost 5,000 students?
OU is way out of line on CC+ in terms of who in the local high school can teach it and quite hypocritical in granting adjunct status (you can be an adjunct here making pennies but you can't grant CC+ credit on a regular teaching salary). Rio is much friendlier and therefore kids are taking CC+ classes in their local high schools. Because there are so many ways to count students now - on campus, branch campus, CC+, online, undergraduate, graduate, medical college, etc., it's really tough to get a number. The Dispatch quoted the OU spokesperson as saying 33,000 in an article last week. All I know is that Athens isn't as crowded this year as it has been in past years. I can pretty much park wherever I want whenever I want.

Interesting my grandson was able to get OU credits while attending Fort Frye high school.
Any idea if he took the classes at OU or at the high school in Beverly? What subject? Do you know who the teacher was?
OU Belmont does the same as the Main Campus, much restriction. Lots of schools that way are giving credit through Zane State which transfers to any other state institution.
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Posted: 10/8/2019 6:37 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From the Post. At the end of the article the university is beginning to see the effects of CC+ students.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/10/transfer-ra...
Could someone please explain what exactly CC+ is ?
Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/8/2019 9:45 AM
rpbobcat wrote:expand_more
From the Post. At the end of the article the university is beginning to see the effects of CC+ students.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/10/transfer-ra...
Could someone please explain what exactly CC+ is ?
A student who is in 7th grade or older takes a "university" class either offered at his or her school or at a university. The school district pays for it and the associated books. The student gets high school and college credit for the course. For example, if a student takes one semester of English 1510 at OU, that counts as a whole year of high school English and the student gets the college hours. If he or she gets an A in that class, it counts as a 6.0 A at Athens High. In 2017-2018, Athens High kids took 366 courses at/through OU. In some cases, kids aren't even going to the local middle or high school and are taking all of their courses through a college online.
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/8/2019 10:24 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From the Post. At the end of the article the university is beginning to see the effects of CC+ students.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/10/transfer-ra...
Could someone please explain what exactly CC+ is ?
A student who is in 7th grade or older takes a "university" class either offered at his or her school or at a university. The school district pays for it and the associated books. The student gets high school and college credit for the course. For example, if a student takes one semester of English 1510 at OU, that counts as a whole year of high school English and the student gets the college hours. If he or she gets an A in that class, it counts as a 6.0 A at Athens High. In 2017-2018, Athens High kids took 366 courses at/through OU. In some cases, kids aren't even going to the local middle or high school and are taking all of their courses through a college online.
God Bless state law makers.
rpbobcat
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Posted: 10/8/2019 11:59 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From the Post. At the end of the article the university is beginning to see the effects of CC+ students.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/10/transfer-ra...
Could someone please explain what exactly CC+ is ?
A student who is in 7th grade or older takes a "university" class either offered at his or her school or at a university. The school district pays for it and the associated books. The student gets high school and college credit for the course. For example, if a student takes one semester of English 1510 at OU, that counts as a whole year of high school English and the student gets the college hours. If he or she gets an A in that class, it counts as a 6.0 A at Athens High. In 2017-2018, Athens High kids took 366 courses at/through OU. In some cases, kids aren't even going to the local middle or high school and are taking all of their courses through a college online.

Thanks for the answer.
Now I've got more questions.

If a kid fails a college level class,does he/she have to take the class in
high school ?

Can a kid take college level classes in any subject including things like calculus,chemistry and physics ?
Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/8/2019 12:38 PM
rpbobcat wrote:expand_more
From the Post. At the end of the article the university is beginning to see the effects of CC+ students.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/10/transfer-ra...
Could someone please explain what exactly CC+ is ?
A student who is in 7th grade or older takes a "university" class either offered at his or her school or at a university. The school district pays for it and the associated books. The student gets high school and college credit for the course. For example, if a student takes one semester of English 1510 at OU, that counts as a whole year of high school English and the student gets the college hours. If he or she gets an A in that class, it counts as a 6.0 A at Athens High. In 2017-2018, Athens High kids took 366 courses at/through OU. In some cases, kids aren't even going to the local middle or high school and are taking all of their courses through a college online.

Thanks for the answer.
Now I've got more questions.

If a kid fails a college level class,does he/she have to take the class in
high school ?

Can a kid take college level classes in any subject including things like calculus,chemistry and physics ?
Billy could best answer question number one but I assume so. As for which classes can they take, most any "academic" class can be taken (PE classes are excluded). The three you mention fall into that category and in my mind, are what CC+ should be about - kids taking classes that their local high school does not offer or for a select few, classes that are more advanced than what their high school offers. In many if not most cases, the classes being taken are in place of classes that are actually offered at their local high school. It's tough to argue with free college credits.
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Posted: 10/8/2019 12:41 PM
I presume Ohio also has a "seamless" transfer of credits from Community Colleges to state colleges or universities.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/8/2019 1:25 PM
rpbobcat wrote:expand_more
I presume Ohio also has a "seamless" transfer of credits from Community Colleges to state colleges or universities.
Believe it some colleges won't accept credits from other colleges. I've been told that English 1510 at OU won't transfer to Miami.
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/8/2019 7:17 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From the Post. At the end of the article the university is beginning to see the effects of CC+ students.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/10/transfer-ra...
Could someone please explain what exactly CC+ is ?
A student who is in 7th grade or older takes a "university" class either offered at his or her school or at a university. The school district pays for it and the associated books. The student gets high school and college credit for the course. For example, if a student takes one semester of English 1510 at OU, that counts as a whole year of high school English and the student gets the college hours. If he or she gets an A in that class, it counts as a 6.0 A at Athens High. In 2017-2018, Athens High kids took 366 courses at/through OU. In some cases, kids aren't even going to the local middle or high school and are taking all of their courses through a college online.

Thanks for the answer.
Now I've got more questions.

If a kid fails a college level class,does he/she have to take the class in
high school ?

Can a kid take college level classes in any subject including things like calculus,chemistry and physics ?
Billy could best answer question number one but I assume so. As for which classes can they take, most any "academic" class can be taken (PE classes are excluded). The three you mention fall into that category and in my mind, are what CC+ should be about - kids taking classes that their local high school does not offer or for a select few, classes that are more advanced than what their high school offers. In many if not most cases, the classes being taken are in place of classes that are actually offered at their local high school. It's tough to argue with free college credits.
Students have to achieve a qualifying ACT score and make placement test for some core classes. No you cannot take whatever you want, classes must be in core subject matter and applicable to HS graduation. You also, must maintain appropriate hours if you are in extracurricular activities to maintain eligibility and you fall under all attendance requirements of the University classes, which are much more stringent. Students do flunk out and get kicked out due to grades. If that happens, the student is in danger of not graduating as they are now behind in high school
Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/8/2019 7:39 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
From the Post. At the end of the article the university is beginning to see the effects of CC+ students.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/10/transfer-ra...
Could someone please explain what exactly CC+ is ?
A student who is in 7th grade or older takes a "university" class either offered at his or her school or at a university. The school district pays for it and the associated books. The student gets high school and college credit for the course. For example, if a student takes one semester of English 1510 at OU, that counts as a whole year of high school English and the student gets the college hours. If he or she gets an A in that class, it counts as a 6.0 A at Athens High. In 2017-2018, Athens High kids took 366 courses at/through OU. In some cases, kids aren't even going to the local middle or high school and are taking all of their courses through a college online.

Thanks for the answer.
Now I've got more questions.

If a kid fails a college level class,does he/she have to take the class in
high school ?

Can a kid take college level classes in any subject including things like calculus,chemistry and physics ?
Billy could best answer question number one but I assume so. As for which classes can they take, most any "academic" class can be taken (PE classes are excluded). The three you mention fall into that category and in my mind, are what CC+ should be about - kids taking classes that their local high school does not offer or for a select few, classes that are more advanced than what their high school offers. In many if not most cases, the classes being taken are in place of classes that are actually offered at their local high school. It's tough to argue with free college credits.
Students have to achieve a qualifying ACT score and make placement test for some core classes. No you cannot take whatever you want, classes must be in core subject matter and applicable to HS graduation. You also, must maintain appropriate hours if you are in extracurricular activities to maintain eligibility and you fall under all attendance requirements of the University classes, which are much more stringent. Students do flunk out and get kicked out due to grades. If that happens, the student is in danger of not graduating as they are now behind in high school
Here's a pretty good document that gives an overview of the program.

https://www.ohiohighered.org/ccp/faqs

These courses are not permitted under College Credit Plus:
• Applied courses with one-on-one private instruction
• Courses with high fees ($750 or more, starting spring 2019)
• Study abroad courses
• Physical education courses
• P/F or S/U graded courses (unless the course is an internship or a transferable course with the
same grading scale for all students enrolled) • Remedial courses
• Sectarian religion courses
Last Edited: 10/8/2019 7:41:55 PM by Alan Swank
David E Brightbill
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Posted: 10/8/2019 9:31 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From the Post. At the end of the article the university is beginning to see the effects of CC+ students.

https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/10/transfer-ra...
Where do you see that CC+ students are having an effect? By the increase in 3 year graduation rates? That's a positive.
In this quote and in conversation with a recently retired dean or regional high education. While it may be saving families money, CC+ is killing the branch campus enrollments not to mention grossly inflating GPAs in high schools with weighted grades. Take for example your school - Athens High - I would much rather have a student enrolled there taking a CC+ class than at OU.

"Furthermore, there is a small dip in students who are staying at the university for four years, which also affects revenue."

“Ohio University has maintained four-year retention rates between 66 and 69% since 2010 and has a record-high 81.5% retention rate for second-year students in the Fall of 2019,” Jim Sabin, a university spokesperson, said in an email. “While we have seen a slight increase in the three-year graduation rate, it is a very small population.”
Good luck finding someone the University will accredit for teaching CC+ at the schools. My building actually have people who are adjuncts on campus, but the University will not allow them to teach CC+ at the local schools. By State law any college class has to be credited at the highest lGPA level

And are those figures a typo, down almost 5,000 students?
OU is way out of line on CC+ in terms of who in the local high school can teach it and quite hypocritical in granting adjunct status (you can be an adjunct here making pennies but you can't grant CC+ credit on a regular teaching salary). Rio is much friendlier and therefore kids are taking CC+ classes in their local high schools. Because there are so many ways to count students now - on campus, branch campus, CC+, online, undergraduate, graduate, medical college, etc., it's really tough to get a number. The Dispatch quoted the OU spokesperson as saying 33,000 in an article last week. All I know is that Athens isn't as crowded this year as it has been in past years. I can pretty much park wherever I want whenever I want.

Interesting my grandson was able to get OU credits while attending Fort Frye high school.
Any idea if he took the classes at OU or at the high school in Beverly? What subject? Do you know who the teacher was?

Classes were at Fort Frye English Von Kennel and a computer class not sure who that teacher was
Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/14/2019 9:10 PM
From today's Post article on the board of trustees meetings:

Resources, Facilities and Affordability Committee

The Resources, Facilities and Affordability committee discussed the future trajectory of enrollment at OU during its meeting.

The graduating classes at OU are higher than ever before, but enrollment numbers are declining. The difference in those numbers is attributed to more students taking College Credit Plus, or CCP, classes before enrolling at OU.

The budget is being altered to account for students who are going to OU with enough credits to graduate before a four-year time frame. Those students are spending less time on campus, which was also accounted for in spending differences.

Board members expect that trend to continue in the future and is trying to plan accordingly.
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/15/2019 10:57 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From today's Post article on the board of trustees meetings:

Resources, Facilities and Affordability Committee

The Resources, Facilities and Affordability committee discussed the future trajectory of enrollment at OU during its meeting.

The graduating classes at OU are higher than ever before, but enrollment numbers are declining. The difference in those numbers is attributed to more students taking College Credit Plus, or CCP, classes before enrolling at OU.

The budget is being altered to account for students who are going to OU with enough credits to graduate before a four-year time frame. Those students are spending less time on campus, which was also accounted for in spending differences.

Board members expect that trend to continue in the future and is trying to plan accordingly.
The CCP arguement is not making sense to me, because the CCP kids in the main branch count are on campus, not in the dorms, but they are on campus. They also count in enrollment figures. I get they may be leaving after only 3 years on campus, however, they still count as students when they are in H.S..
Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/15/2019 12:30 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
From today's Post article on the board of trustees meetings:

Resources, Facilities and Affordability Committee

The Resources, Facilities and Affordability committee discussed the future trajectory of enrollment at OU during its meeting.

The graduating classes at OU are higher than ever before, but enrollment numbers are declining. The difference in those numbers is attributed to more students taking College Credit Plus, or CCP, classes before enrolling at OU.

The budget is being altered to account for students who are going to OU with enough credits to graduate before a four-year time frame. Those students are spending less time on campus, which was also accounted for in spending differences.

Board members expect that trend to continue in the future and is trying to plan accordingly.
The CCP arguement is not making sense to me, because the CCP kids in the main branch count are on campus, not in the dorms, but they are on campus. They also count in enrollment figures. I get they may be leaving after only 3 years on campus, however, they still count as students when they are in H.S..
What they are getting at is the loss in revenue. A student taking a full load of CC+ classes doesn't generate nearly the dollar amount that a full time student generates in tuition, fees, and room and board which is almost as much as tuition.

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/ohio/ohio-universi... /
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Posted: 10/15/2019 7:34 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From today's Post article on the board of trustees meetings:

Resources, Facilities and Affordability Committee

The Resources, Facilities and Affordability committee discussed the future trajectory of enrollment at OU during its meeting.

The graduating classes at OU are higher than ever before, but enrollment numbers are declining. The difference in those numbers is attributed to more students taking College Credit Plus, or CCP, classes before enrolling at OU.

The budget is being altered to account for students who are going to OU with enough credits to graduate before a four-year time frame. Those students are spending less time on campus, which was also accounted for in spending differences.

Board members expect that trend to continue in the future and is trying to plan accordingly.
The CCP arguement is not making sense to me, because the CCP kids in the main branch count are on campus, not in the dorms, but they are on campus. They also count in enrollment figures. I get they may be leaving after only 3 years on campus, however, they still count as students when they are in H.S..
What they are getting at is the loss in revenue. A student taking a full load of CC+ classes doesn't generate nearly the dollar amount that a full time student generates in tuition, fees, and room and board which is almost as much as tuition.

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/ohio/ohio-universi... /
Well universities, as well as OHIO helped create this situation because it was free money to them to stick extra bodies in open seats. They helped create this situation and there is no going back now that enrollment is declining, and that 3 year student is the least of the issues facing universities in this state.
Last Edited: 10/15/2019 7:43:00 PM by BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/15/2019 9:05 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From today's Post article on the board of trustees meetings:

Resources, Facilities and Affordability Committee

The Resources, Facilities and Affordability committee discussed the future trajectory of enrollment at OU during its meeting.

The graduating classes at OU are higher than ever before, but enrollment numbers are declining. The difference in those numbers is attributed to more students taking College Credit Plus, or CCP, classes before enrolling at OU.

The budget is being altered to account for students who are going to OU with enough credits to graduate before a four-year time frame. Those students are spending less time on campus, which was also accounted for in spending differences.

Board members expect that trend to continue in the future and is trying to plan accordingly.
Lower enrollment. Lower revenues. Lower student to teacher ratios. Higher graduation rates. Higher entering freshman class statistics. Its not the McDavis way but the school rankings are fed by improved stats which this trend is helping the university move toward.
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Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/16/2019 9:20 AM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
From today's Post article on the board of trustees meetings:

Resources, Facilities and Affordability Committee

The Resources, Facilities and Affordability committee discussed the future trajectory of enrollment at OU during its meeting.

The graduating classes at OU are higher than ever before, but enrollment numbers are declining. The difference in those numbers is attributed to more students taking College Credit Plus, or CCP, classes before enrolling at OU.

The budget is being altered to account for students who are going to OU with enough credits to graduate before a four-year time frame. Those students are spending less time on campus, which was also accounted for in spending differences.

Board members expect that trend to continue in the future and is trying to plan accordingly.
Lower enrollment. Lower revenues. Lower student to teacher ratios. Higher graduation rates. Higher entering freshman class statistics. Its not the McDavis way but the school rankings are fed by improved stats which this trend is helping the university move toward.
Entering GPA is not a valid statistic. Grade inflation is out of control plus there is no way to convert weighted grades to a four point scale.
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Posted: 10/16/2019 10:43 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Entering GPA is not a valid statistic. Grade inflation is out of control plus there is no way to convert weighted grades to a four point scale.
This !

As I've posted,I chair FDU's Industrial Advisory Committee For Civil Engineering and Civil and Construction Engineering Technology.

I can't believe the number of students we admit who graduate with 4.0's (based on a 4.0 scale)from very good high schools,who end up having to take remedial math classes before they can begin an engineering curriculum.

Grade inflation is so bad in colleges,that the group that accredits engineering programs (ABET) won't allow grades to be used in determining the quality of an engineering program for accreditation.
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Posted: 10/16/2019 10:44 AM
Read the latest enrollment news release from any public university in Ohio and you will see the same message: Smaller class but record GPA. Grade inflation.
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Posted: 10/16/2019 9:17 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
From today's Post article on the board of trustees meetings:

Resources, Facilities and Affordability Committee

The Resources, Facilities and Affordability committee discussed the future trajectory of enrollment at OU during its meeting.

The graduating classes at OU are higher than ever before, but enrollment numbers are declining. The difference in those numbers is attributed to more students taking College Credit Plus, or CCP, classes before enrolling at OU.

The budget is being altered to account for students who are going to OU with enough credits to graduate before a four-year time frame. Those students are spending less time on campus, which was also accounted for in spending differences.

Board members expect that trend to continue in the future and is trying to plan accordingly.
Lower enrollment. Lower revenues. Lower student to teacher ratios. Higher graduation rates. Higher entering freshman class statistics. Its not the McDavis way but the school rankings are fed by improved stats which this trend is helping the university move toward.
Entering GPA is not a valid statistic. Grade inflation is out of control plus there is no way to convert weighted grades to a four point scale.
Class rank is a valid statistic and its going up.
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2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Fiami @ Peden with 25,086 fans
2023 10-7 near shutout of Iowa State @ Solich Field
2025 17-10 defeat of WVU @ Peden in front of 26,740
Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/16/2019 9:45 PM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
From today's Post article on the board of trustees meetings:

Resources, Facilities and Affordability Committee

The Resources, Facilities and Affordability committee discussed the future trajectory of enrollment at OU during its meeting.

The graduating classes at OU are higher than ever before, but enrollment numbers are declining. The difference in those numbers is attributed to more students taking College Credit Plus, or CCP, classes before enrolling at OU.

The budget is being altered to account for students who are going to OU with enough credits to graduate before a four-year time frame. Those students are spending less time on campus, which was also accounted for in spending differences.

Board members expect that trend to continue in the future and is trying to plan accordingly.
Lower enrollment. Lower revenues. Lower student to teacher ratios. Higher graduation rates. Higher entering freshman class statistics. Its not the McDavis way but the school rankings are fed by improved stats which this trend is helping the university move toward.
Entering GPA is not a valid statistic. Grade inflation is out of control plus there is no way to convert weighted grades to a four point scale.
Class rank is a valid statistic and its going up.
Not sure how that is possible with many schools doing away with class ranking or simply ranking students in quartiles.
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Posted: 10/16/2019 9:57 PM
Glidden when he was president said that to be considered a top public university at least 25% of the entering freshman should be ranked within the top 10 percent of their high school class. This past year by itself OU moved from 17.6 to 20.3 percent within the Top 10. With plans to double the amount of students in the honors program while at the same time the freshman class is getting smaller 25 percent within the Top 10 seems obtainable finally within the next couple of years. The USNWR looks at the class rank, freshman retention rate, standardized tests, student to teach ratio and alumni giving rate.
Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Fiami @ Peden with 25,086 fans
2023 10-7 near shutout of Iowa State @ Solich Field
2025 17-10 defeat of WVU @ Peden in front of 26,740
Athens
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Posted: 10/16/2019 10:24 PM
The decline is tough on uptown merchants and landlords but for the students they have more housing options to work with and less overcrowding on campus.
Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Fiami @ Peden with 25,086 fans
2023 10-7 near shutout of Iowa State @ Solich Field
2025 17-10 defeat of WVU @ Peden in front of 26,740
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BillyTheCat
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Posted: 11/18/2019 1:28 AM
Alan Swank
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Alan Swank
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Posted: 11/18/2019 9:38 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
From a sales management perspective, we are getting old sold by Miami and BG. A sales manager doesn't want to hear "but the number of available contracts opportunities is decreasing."
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