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Topic: Potential for a 6-6 season?
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Athens
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Posted: 9/25/2023 6:25 PM
With the way the season is unfolding I think the Cats can go 6-6 this year.

6th MAC East Division Title
6th MAC Championship

6-6
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M.D.W.S.T
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Posted: 9/26/2023 11:53 AM
Outside of Miami, which will be tough, I'm not seeing a loss, or a game they won't be favorites.

PROS:

Miami will be in Athens, Halloween weekend. Hopefully that is a noon game, with a rowdy crowd. Could be a 7-1 OU vs 7-1 (6-2) Miami. When was the last team we've seen anything like that?

CONS:

Miami will be coming off a tough game with Toledo. Win or lose, I think they're gonna be focused on a MAC Championship and they gotta get through OU to do it.


Of course, OU always finds a way to turn a November game they should win by 30 into a pillow fight, but last year convinced me that they can focus.

I'm not doubting there will be stumbles, I'm just saying finishing off 2-5 vs a group that is currently 9-19...
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Posted: 9/26/2023 12:02 PM
Miami is a great concern for me as well. They really seem to have something brewing over in Oxford. I think their win at Cincinnati has them believing and they will be a very motivated bunch that would love to spoil hallOUween.

Their defense has been giving up some points so hopefully the offense is rolling by then.
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 9/26/2023 12:02 PM
This is some 2023-level click bait, well played. We all came here to roast you and the idea we could go 2-5 the rest of the way.

Speaking of, remember the preseason over/under had us at 7.5 wins and a lot of said homerism aside that seems like a really good over bet? Yeah, I think we were right. Even if we struggle, I can't imagine a scenario where we lose 4 MAC games.
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Posted: 9/26/2023 1:08 PM
M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
Outside of Miami, which will be tough, I'm not seeing a loss, or a game they won't be favorites.

PROS:

Miami will be in Athens, Halloween weekend. Hopefully that is a noon game, with a rowdy crowd. Could be a 7-1 OU vs 7-1 (6-2) Miami. When was the last team we've seen anything like that?

CONS:

Miami will be coming off a tough game with Toledo. Win or lose, I think they're gonna be focused on a MAC Championship and they gotta get through OU to do it.


Of course, OU always finds a way to turn a November game they should win by 30 into a pillow fight, but last year convinced me that they can focus.

I'm not doubting there will be stumbles, I'm just saying finishing off 2-5 vs a group that is currently 9-19...
I wouldn't get your hopes up for a halloween crowd, even against Miami and even with the East probably on the line. usually the worst possible saturday for football in Athens.
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Posted: 9/26/2023 1:15 PM
I think this schedule is shaping up to be tougher than thought at first. I think we probably roll Kent with a dominant defensive performance. I think Miami at home and NIU on the road are close to tossups, even though I think we'll be slight favorites in both. WMU at home... we'll be a stronger favorite. Hosting Central, at Buffalo are both very dangerous games. Who knows what Akron will be by season's end. I hope we've clinched before kickoff in that one.
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Posted: 9/26/2023 1:24 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
I think this schedule is shaping up to be tougher than thought at first. I think we probably roll Kent with a dominant defensive performance. I think Miami at home and NIU on the road are close to tossups, even though I think we'll be slight favorites in both. WMU at home... we'll be a stronger favorite. Hosting Central, at Buffalo are both very dangerous games. Who knows what Akron will be by season's end. I hope we've clinched before kickoff in that one.
I think you’re right on. This is the MAC and almost anything is possible in this league. Last year was a refreshing break from the usual flop game along the line. I’m just hoping we can pull that off again.
M.D.W.S.T
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Posted: 9/26/2023 1:25 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
Outside of Miami, which will be tough, I'm not seeing a loss, or a game they won't be favorites.

PROS:

Miami will be in Athens, Halloween weekend. Hopefully that is a noon game, with a rowdy crowd. Could be a 7-1 OU vs 7-1 (6-2) Miami. When was the last team we've seen anything like that?

CONS:

Miami will be coming off a tough game with Toledo. Win or lose, I think they're gonna be focused on a MAC Championship and they gotta get through OU to do it.


Of course, OU always finds a way to turn a November game they should win by 30 into a pillow fight, but last year convinced me that they can focus.

I'm not doubting there will be stumbles, I'm just saying finishing off 2-5 vs a group that is currently 9-19...
I wouldn't get your hopes up for a halloween crowd, even against Miami and even with the East probably on the line. usually the worst possible saturday for football in Athens.
Now that I said it out loud, I'm guessing its probably a tough day for locals to make the trip as well? Honestly, I dont recall from my time as a student.

When I was on campus for Iowa State a lot of students seemed excited. The tailgate scene was pretty excited, though spread all over the place. Hope that carries over as the season goes on and they keep stacking wins.
Athens
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Posted: 9/26/2023 2:04 PM
The prior week BG was talked up because they only lost to #2 Michigan 31-6. Then Ohio goes up to Doyt Perry and closes the show in the first quarter. Fans need to have more confidence than what they do.

Ohio has the best D in the MAC and Rourke is the best QB in the MAC. Usually having the best QB is enough to win the conference. The team with the better QB also has the edge in the 4th and OT should there be a close game.

Miami in my opinion is a 5-3 MAC team when the dust settles. Anyone putting them in line for a G5 access bowl needs to stop.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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Posted: 9/26/2023 2:36 PM
Campus Flow wrote:expand_more
The prior week BG was talked up because they only lost to #2 Michigan 31-6. Then Ohio goes up to Doyt Perry and closes the show in the first quarter. Fans need to have more confidence than what they do.

Ohio has the best D in the MAC and Rourke is the best QB in the MAC. Usually having the best QB is enough to win the conference. The team with the better QB also has the edge in the 4th and OT should there be a close game.

Miami in my opinion is a 5-3 MAC team when the dust settles. Anyone putting them in line for a G5 access bowl needs to stop.
I don't think anyone is crowning Miami anything, but optics right now say they've done as much as Ohio in their pursuit of MAC East supremacy. Lots of football left. They know the title goes through Athens. We know we have to beat them.
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Posted: 9/26/2023 4:24 PM
Campus Flow wrote:expand_more
The prior week BG was talked up because they only lost to #2 Michigan 31-6. Then Ohio goes up to Doyt Perry and closes the show in the first quarter. Fans need to have more confidence than what they do.

Ohio has the best D in the MAC and Rourke is the best QB in the MAC. Usually having the best QB is enough to win the conference. The team with the better QB also has the edge in the 4th and OT should there be a close game.

Miami in my opinion is a 5-3 MAC team when the dust settles. Anyone putting them in line for a G5 access bowl needs to stop.
This may be heresy, but I think that a healthy Gabbert is comparable to Rourke. Our defense is great. All Miami needs is a couple of injuries or a break or two to beat the Cats. I am not taking too much away from the BGSU game.
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Posted: 9/26/2023 6:03 PM
BryanHall wrote:expand_more
The prior week BG was talked up because they only lost to #2 Michigan 31-6. Then Ohio goes up to Doyt Perry and closes the show in the first quarter. Fans need to have more confidence than what they do.

Ohio has the best D in the MAC and Rourke is the best QB in the MAC. Usually having the best QB is enough to win the conference. The team with the better QB also has the edge in the 4th and OT should there be a close game.

Miami in my opinion is a 5-3 MAC team when the dust settles. Anyone putting them in line for a G5 access bowl needs to stop.
This may be heresy, but I think that a healthy Gabbert is comparable to Rourke. Our defense is great. All Miami needs is a couple of injuries or a break or two to beat the Cats. I am not taking too much away from the BGSU game.
Right now Gabbert is way ahead of Rourke in all categories, even accounting for the difference in playing time. It’s seems that Rourke is getting his game legs back and if he continues to improve to match last years success, he will probably end up as the best, but quite frankly there’s not a lot of difference in the greater scheme of things. Defense, penalties and turnovers will probably decide who wins our game with them and who wins the east.
M.D.W.S.T
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Posted: 9/26/2023 6:10 PM
BryanHall wrote:expand_more
The prior week BG was talked up because they only lost to #2 Michigan 31-6. Then Ohio goes up to Doyt Perry and closes the show in the first quarter. Fans need to have more confidence than what they do.

Ohio has the best D in the MAC and Rourke is the best QB in the MAC. Usually having the best QB is enough to win the conference. The team with the better QB also has the edge in the 4th and OT should there be a close game.

Miami in my opinion is a 5-3 MAC team when the dust settles. Anyone putting them in line for a G5 access bowl needs to stop.
This may be heresy, but I think that a healthy Gabbert is comparable to Rourke. Our defense is great. All Miami needs is a couple of injuries or a break or two to beat the Cats. I am not taking too much away from the BGSU game.
If you asked me around week ten last year, I would've said Gabbert couldn't wash Rourke's undies, but honestly, I like his game. Probably the 3rd best QB in the MAC. Some nights he could be #1. He's been in the game for so long, he does a lot of good things. Knows how to play each team. Been a starter since 2019. He's had to fight through injuries, like Rourke is doing now - so I'd say it's fairly close. Has 50+ career TD. Over 7,000 yards. Just knowing how to play in the MAC is a skill. He's tough.

Your other note... OU's defense is LEGIT. I've been denying it's happening for weeks. It's not just the way they entirely shut down BG. And FAU. Iowa State isn't exactly mid-2000's Texas Tech, but they put up 400+ yards and 37 points vs Oklahoma State the week after struggling to do anything vs OU.

We saw OU go from one of the worst defenses in football to one of the best at the end of the season, and it's continued into this year... I think it's for real. They're gonna win us a few more games.
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Posted: 9/26/2023 6:57 PM
Is Spence Nowinsky playing himself into a big coordinator promotion or head coaching role? It would seem so with the defense he is building at OHIO.
M.D.W.S.T
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Posted: 9/27/2023 10:49 AM
Kevin Finnegan wrote:expand_more
Is Spence Nowinsky playing himself into a big coordinator promotion or head coaching role? It would seem so with the defense he is building at OHIO.
I think a lot of us speculated at the time of his hiring he was probably told if this doesn't work out with Tim... *wink*wink*

Tim seems to be doing fine and getting the results we (mostly) want on the field, but I wonder if Julie doesn't try to keep Spense if Albin jumps at the next role..?

PJ Fleck might be looking for a new DC, or a new job at this rate. Minessota guy... could sell them on that. Bring a tough defense to the BIG10. Might be hard to sell them on another MAC guy though.

Spense is probably gonna have his pick of some good jobs.
Last Edited: 9/27/2023 10:51:29 AM by M.D.W.S.T
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 9/27/2023 11:23 AM
M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
Is Spence Nowinsky playing himself into a big coordinator promotion or head coaching role? It would seem so with the defense he is building at OHIO.
I think a lot of us speculated at the time of his hiring he was probably told if this doesn't work out with Tim... *wink*wink*

Tim seems to be doing fine and getting the results we (mostly) want on the field, but I wonder if Julie doesn't try to keep Spense if Albin jumps at the next role..?

PJ Fleck might be looking for a new DC, or a new job at this rate. Minessota guy... could sell them on that. Bring a tough defense to the BIG10. Might be hard to sell them on another MAC guy though.

Spense is probably gonna have his pick of some good jobs.
Yes, the natives are restless in the Land of Lakes and the Home of the World Largest Mosquitoes.
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OUcats82
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Posted: 9/27/2023 3:33 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Is Spence Nowinsky playing himself into a big coordinator promotion or head coaching role? It would seem so with the defense he is building at OHIO.
I think a lot of us speculated at the time of his hiring he was probably told if this doesn't work out with Tim... *wink*wink*

Tim seems to be doing fine and getting the results we (mostly) want on the field, but I wonder if Julie doesn't try to keep Spense if Albin jumps at the next role..?

PJ Fleck might be looking for a new DC, or a new job at this rate. Minessota guy... could sell them on that. Bring a tough defense to the BIG10. Might be hard to sell them on another MAC guy though.

Spense is probably gonna have his pick of some good jobs.
Yes, the natives are restless in the Land of Lakes and the Home of the World Largest Mosquitoes.
That meltdown loss to NW was brutal. Was a bit shocked to hear the outcome Sunday morning after the last score update I saw Saturday.
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Posted: 9/27/2023 6:42 PM
OUcats82 wrote:expand_more
Is Spence Nowinsky playing himself into a big coordinator promotion or head coaching role? It would seem so with the defense he is building at OHIO.
I think a lot of us speculated at the time of his hiring he was probably told if this doesn't work out with Tim... *wink*wink*

Tim seems to be doing fine and getting the results we (mostly) want on the field, but I wonder if Julie doesn't try to keep Spense if Albin jumps at the next role..?

PJ Fleck might be looking for a new DC, or a new job at this rate. Minessota guy... could sell them on that. Bring a tough defense to the BIG10. Might be hard to sell them on another MAC guy though.

Spense is probably gonna have his pick of some good jobs.
Yes, the natives are restless in the Land of Lakes and the Home of the World Largest Mosquitoes.
That meltdown loss to NW was brutal. Was a bit shocked to hear the outcome Sunday morning after the last score update I saw Saturday.
I watched the end of the last quarter and the OT session. I always try to watch Minnesota when I can, as it's my mother's Alma Mater, and for the benefit of SBH and BS, I have a multitude of first cousins who graduated from there. One of said cousins communicates with me regularly about the program.
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Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org
OUcats82
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Posted: 9/28/2023 8:10 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Is Spence Nowinsky playing himself into a big coordinator promotion or head coaching role? It would seem so with the defense he is building at OHIO.
I think a lot of us speculated at the time of his hiring he was probably told if this doesn't work out with Tim... *wink*wink*

Tim seems to be doing fine and getting the results we (mostly) want on the field, but I wonder if Julie doesn't try to keep Spense if Albin jumps at the next role..?

PJ Fleck might be looking for a new DC, or a new job at this rate. Minessota guy... could sell them on that. Bring a tough defense to the BIG10. Might be hard to sell them on another MAC guy though.

Spense is probably gonna have his pick of some good jobs.
Yes, the natives are restless in the Land of Lakes and the Home of the World Largest Mosquitoes.


That meltdown loss to NW was brutal. Was a bit shocked to hear the outcome Sunday morning after the last score update I saw Saturday.
I watched the end of the last quarter and the OT session. I always try to watch Minnesota when I can, as it's my mother's Alma Mater, and for the benefit of SBH and BS, I have a multitude of first cousins who graduated from there. One of said cousins communicates with me regularly about the program.
Very nice. I went to a conference at The U as they called it between my junior and senior years of high school and have always had a rooting interest for the Gophers. Have felt bad for their fan base that they've never really had, along with Indiana, that one break out year in the more modern era of football where they won upwards of 10 games + and went to a major bowl. Seem like just about every other mid-low tier Big 10 team has (not counting the newer additions).
Ohio-The State University

Last Edited: 9/28/2023 8:10:43 AM by OUcats82
71 BOBCAT
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Posted: 9/28/2023 9:21 AM
After reading all these posts on this subject 1 thing is true;

After all these years we tend to rarely achieve better than an 8-5 record and this fact leads us to be a little pessimistic on every year's final record. We now have a D that has performed better than the D we had over years 2010 - 2021. Our D has now shown us it can keep us in all games and even win some, like last week. We are seeing our team perform above previous year's final records.

Let's enjoy watching this team achieve greater results for us as fans as well as the university.




GO BOBCATS
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 9/28/2023 11:30 AM
OUcats82 wrote:expand_more
Is Spence Nowinsky playing himself into a big coordinator promotion or head coaching role? It would seem so with the defense he is building at OHIO.
I think a lot of us speculated at the time of his hiring he was probably told if this doesn't work out with Tim... *wink*wink*

Tim seems to be doing fine and getting the results we (mostly) want on the field, but I wonder if Julie doesn't try to keep Spense if Albin jumps at the next role..?

PJ Fleck might be looking for a new DC, or a new job at this rate. Minessota guy... could sell them on that. Bring a tough defense to the BIG10. Might be hard to sell them on another MAC guy though.

Spense is probably gonna have his pick of some good jobs.
Yes, the natives are restless in the Land of Lakes and the Home of the World Largest Mosquitoes.


That meltdown loss to NW was brutal. Was a bit shocked to hear the outcome Sunday morning after the last score update I saw Saturday.
I watched the end of the last quarter and the OT session. I always try to watch Minnesota when I can, as it's my mother's Alma Mater, and for the benefit of SBH and BS, I have a multitude of first cousins who graduated from there. One of said cousins communicates with me regularly about the program.
Very nice. I went to a conference at The U as they called it between my junior and senior years of high school and have always had a rooting interest for the Gophers. Have felt bad for their fan base that they've never really had, along with Indiana, that one break out year in the more modern era of football where they won upwards of 10 games + and went to a major bowl. Seem like just about every other mid-low tier Big 10 team has (not counting the newer additions).
FYI, the aforementioned cousin just texted me the following about PJF:

"I think the light is dawning upon [the fanbase] what a fool he really is. The fact that he’s a great recruiter, but a bad coach (look at the the 4th Q of that game). One line, I think it was Sports Illustrated, that resonated with me, was 'he’s full of over caffeinated slogans.' Gum chewing, empty headed buffoon."
The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org
Last Edited: 9/28/2023 11:39:46 AM by OhioCatFan
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Posted: 9/28/2023 4:36 PM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
This may be heresy, but I think that a healthy Gabbert is comparable to Rourke. Our defense is great. All Miami needs is a couple of injuries or a break or two to beat the Cats. I am not taking too much away from the BGSU game.
Right now Gabbert is way ahead of Rourke in all categories, even accounting for the difference in playing time. It’s seems that Rourke is getting his game legs back and if he continues to improve to match last years success, he will probably end up as the best, but quite frankly there’s not a lot of difference in the greater scheme of things. Defense, penalties and turnovers will probably decide who wins our game with them and who wins the east.

If you look at ESPN QBR ratings, it is very close, with Gabbert at 76.5 (ninth best all time in the MAC since the ratings began in 2011), and Rourke at 75.1 (eleventh best all time in the MAC). FWIW, Jase Bauer at CMU is right there, too, at 74.1. These three are very, very close, so close that the order of these three could shift around quite a bit from one week to the next.

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Posted: 9/29/2023 11:53 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Is Spence Nowinsky playing himself into a big coordinator promotion or head coaching role? It would seem so with the defense he is building at OHIO.
I think a lot of us speculated at the time of his hiring he was probably told if this doesn't work out with Tim... *wink*wink*

Tim seems to be doing fine and getting the results we (mostly) want on the field, but I wonder if Julie doesn't try to keep Spense if Albin jumps at the next role..?

PJ Fleck might be looking for a new DC, or a new job at this rate. Minessota guy... could sell them on that. Bring a tough defense to the BIG10. Might be hard to sell them on another MAC guy though.

Spense is probably gonna have his pick of some good jobs.
Yes, the natives are restless in the Land of Lakes and the Home of the World Largest Mosquitoes.


That meltdown loss to NW was brutal. Was a bit shocked to hear the outcome Sunday morning after the last score update I saw Saturday.
I watched the end of the last quarter and the OT session. I always try to watch Minnesota when I can, as it's my mother's Alma Mater, and for the benefit of SBH and BS, I have a multitude of first cousins who graduated from there. One of said cousins communicates with me regularly about the program.
Very nice. I went to a conference at The U as they called it between my junior and senior years of high school and have always had a rooting interest for the Gophers. Have felt bad for their fan base that they've never really had, along with Indiana, that one break out year in the more modern era of football where they won upwards of 10 games + and went to a major bowl. Seem like just about every other mid-low tier Big 10 team has (not counting the newer additions).
FYI, the aforementioned cousin just texted me the following about PJF:

"I think the light is dawning upon [the fanbase] what a fool he really is. The fact that he’s a great recruiter, but a bad coach (look at the the 4th Q of that game). One line, I think it was Sports Illustrated, that resonated with me, was 'he’s full of over caffeinated slogans.' Gum chewing, empty headed buffoon."
Delusional fan base! Fleck has the highest winning % in 73 years! You have to go back to 1950 to get a head coach with a higher % then Fleck. This is a silly as people who wanted to fire Frank at OHIO.
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Posted: 9/29/2023 1:02 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Is Spence Nowinsky playing himself into a big coordinator promotion or head coaching role? It would seem so with the defense he is building at OHIO.
I think a lot of us speculated at the time of his hiring he was probably told if this doesn't work out with Tim... *wink*wink*

Tim seems to be doing fine and getting the results we (mostly) want on the field, but I wonder if Julie doesn't try to keep Spense if Albin jumps at the next role..?

PJ Fleck might be looking for a new DC, or a new job at this rate. Minessota guy... could sell them on that. Bring a tough defense to the BIG10. Might be hard to sell them on another MAC guy though.

Spense is probably gonna have his pick of some good jobs.
Yes, the natives are restless in the Land of Lakes and the Home of the World Largest Mosquitoes.


That meltdown loss to NW was brutal. Was a bit shocked to hear the outcome Sunday morning after the last score update I saw Saturday.
I watched the end of the last quarter and the OT session. I always try to watch Minnesota when I can, as it's my mother's Alma Mater, and for the benefit of SBH and BS, I have a multitude of first cousins who graduated from there. One of said cousins communicates with me regularly about the program.
Very nice. I went to a conference at The U as they called it between my junior and senior years of high school and have always had a rooting interest for the Gophers. Have felt bad for their fan base that they've never really had, along with Indiana, that one break out year in the more modern era of football where they won upwards of 10 games + and went to a major bowl. Seem like just about every other mid-low tier Big 10 team has (not counting the newer additions).
FYI, the aforementioned cousin just texted me the following about PJF:

"I think the light is dawning upon [the fanbase] what a fool he really is. The fact that he’s a great recruiter, but a bad coach (look at the the 4th Q of that game). One line, I think it was Sports Illustrated, that resonated with me, was 'he’s full of over caffeinated slogans.' Gum chewing, empty headed buffoon."
Delusional fan base! Fleck has the highest winning % in 73 years! You have to go back to 1950 to get a head coach with a higher % then Fleck. This is a silly as people who wanted to fire Frank at OHIO.
You may be right, but in this case it’s more than just his W-L record. Many U of M fans just don’t like his style. If he won them a B10–18 championship, they’d overlook that. But short of being the second coming of Bernie Bierman they are going to bitch. As this same cousin told me earlier, PJF is just not “Minnesota nice.” The culture in Minnesota is kind of unique!
The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org
Last Edited: 9/29/2023 1:03:56 PM by OhioCatFan
colobobcat66
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Posted: 9/29/2023 9:45 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=BryanHall]This may be heresy, but I think that a healthy Gabbert is comparable to Rourke. Our defense is great. All Miami needs is a couple of injuries or a break or two to beat the Cats. I am not taking too much away from the BGSU game.
Right now Gabbert is way ahead of Rourke in all categories, even accounting for the difference in playing time. It’s seems that Rourke is getting his game legs back and if he continues to improve to match last years success, he will probably end up as the best, but quite frankly there’s not a lot of difference in the greater scheme of things. Defense, penalties and turnovers will probably decide who wins our game with them and who wins the east.

If you look at ESPN QBR ratings, it is very close, with Gabbert at 76.5 (ninth best all time in the MAC since the ratings began in 2011), and Rourke at 75.1 (eleventh best all time in the MAC). FWIW, Jase Bauer at CMU is right there, too, at 74.1. These three are very, very close, so close that the order of these three could shift around quite a bit from one week to the next.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/qbr/_/group/15 [/QUOTE
How about looking at yards, TD’s, average gain etc. ratings are close, stats really aren’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rourke ends up as Offensive player, etc. will probably depend on who wins division
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