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Topic: Return of the MAC
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Voice of Reason
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Posted: 3/16/2011 1:26 PM
The decline of play in the MAC has been widely discussed on this board.  Many theories and ideas have been presented and discussed.  While I agree with many of the thoughts discussed on here, some simple some complex.  I believe a large part of the decline is simply a result of the cyclicality that is mid-major basketball.  Conferences constantly rise and fall.  The MAC's rise and fall has been a little more extreme than some conferences, but I still anticipate a rise in the near future.  Even the ACC, Big East, Big 10, Big 12 and Pac 10 haven't been immune to cyclicality. 

With that said, I think the MAC may be approaching its next rise.  This postseason should be a great indicator of what to expect next year.  Kent has already advanced in the NIT and Ohio in the CIT.  I am really rooting for the MAC teams to continue that to hopefully earn a little respect or turn a few heads going into next season.  Ohio is a young team with lost of potential. Miami is also a young team and Kent has only one senior on there roster.  If those three teams can grow and improve from this year, the MAC may be able to get a few early season non-conference wins next year and earn some respect.

I really believe the youth in the MAC will bring back respect for this conference over the next few years.
Joe McKinley
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Posted: 3/16/2011 1:53 PM
The MAC defnitely has a core of young talent that will give our league an opportunity to raise it's profile next year. But, we all have to do our part by winning the non-league games we should, and, picking up some signature wins.

BTW -- good early recognition last night by Bobcat Dragon and ANorris. One of the media timeout ditties was Return of the Mack and both of them got it named within a few notes. Kind of ironic given the final outcome.
bobcatsquared
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Posted: 3/16/2011 2:10 PM
Joe McKinley wrote:expand_more
The MAC defnitely has a core of young talent that will give our league an opportunity to raise it's profile next year. But, we all have to do our part by winning the non-league games we should, and, picking up some signature wins.

BTW -- good early recognition last night by Bobcat Dragon and ANorris. One of the media timeout ditties was Return of the Mack and both of them got it named within a few notes. Kind of ironic given the final outcome.


      Couldn't agree more, Joe.

     That is why, back in Nov./Dec., I was one of the few on here who took exception to those who stated that all the non-league losses, for Ohio as well as other MAC teams, didn't matter. That's why I disagreed with the many on here who stated that the only games that matter are those played in March.
anorris
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Posted: 3/16/2011 2:27 PM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
The MAC defnitely has a core of young talent that will give our league an opportunity to raise it's profile next year. But, we all have to do our part by winning the non-league games we should, and, picking up some signature wins.

BTW -- good early recognition last night by Bobcat Dragon and ANorris. One of the media timeout ditties was Return of the Mack and both of them got it named within a few notes. Kind of ironic given the final outcome.


Couldn't agree more, Joe.

That is why, back in Nov./Dec., I was one of the few on here who took exception to those who stated that all the non-league losses, for Ohio as well as other MAC teams, didn't matter. That's why I disagreed with the many on here who stated that the only games that matter are those played in March.
Let's not forget even if you think all that matters is March, those November and December wins make March wins easier by virtue of seeding.

In addition to the positives stated above, it seems like the bottom of the league in Toledo should elevate as well. Those teams have dragged down SOS and thus RPI for some time, but Western and Ball are improving, and Toledo has a lot of new talent coming in the form of transfers. If the MAC East were a six team league, it would rate between the Horizon and Missouri Valley. West needs to improve for the league to improve much.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/16/2011 2:50 PM
anorris wrote:expand_more
In addition to the positives stated above, it seems like the bottom of the league in Toledo should elevate as well. Those teams have dragged down SOS and thus RPI for some time, but Western and Ball are improving, and Toledo has a lot of new talent coming in the form of transfers. If the MAC East were a six team league, it would rate between the Horizon and Missouri Valley. West needs to improve for the league to improve much.


Toledo isn't typically part of the problem. They have a traditional commitment to basketball but the Gene Cross debacle has set them back much like the Ronnie Thompson debacle set Ball State back.  I have no doubt that both those programs will be strong shortly.  NIU, EMU and CMU are a different story however. 
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 3/16/2011 3:10 PM
There are multiple freshmen and sophomores that are key contributors on virtually every team in the MAC right now.  I am a believer that we'll see strides in 2012 and a return at least to where we're used to being by 2013.  I like a lot of the coaches around the MAC right now too.  Continued postseason success would be a GREAT thing to have going into next season for the conference.
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Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 3/16/2011 3:27 PM
When I was at the MAC tournament this past week, I sensed that the seeds could be there for a Renaissance of the league. 

Again, I don't want to be like Linus awaiting the Great Pumpkin...but I do think it's likely the league will improve over the next couple of years. 
bobcatsquared
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Posted: 3/16/2011 3:53 PM
The hardest hit team in terms of graduation is Akron. The Zips lose McKnight, McNees, McClanahan, Bardo and Roberts. Plus, I read somewhere that Ctivninocigihfhc, a junior and the Zips' best all-around player, might graduate early and return to his home country.

Just about everyone else, IMO, should be stronger next year and even more so the following year.
JSF
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Posted: 3/16/2011 5:17 PM
Joe McKinley wrote:expand_more
BTW -- good early recognition last night by Bobcat Dragon and ANorris. One of the media timeout ditties was Return of the Mack and both of them got it named within a few notes. Kind of ironic given the final outcome.


Someone else that was there can tell you how giddy that made me.  It was near the end of the game... I wanted to give the person that played it a five-spot.
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giacomo
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Posted: 3/16/2011 5:36 PM
If you play the kind of schedules most MAC teams play and only go .500, then you set yourself up for only meaningful games in the MAC tournament in March. Check out Oakland U's schedule. We used to play schedules like this and must in the future if we want to be taken seriously.

11/12/10 at West Virginia

11/15/10 at Ohio University

L 71-95 12707W 78-66 5084

!

11/21/10 at #14/9 Purdue L 67-82 14123

!

11/23/10 at Wright State L 79-82 3327

!

11/26/10 vs Southern Jaguars W 105-53 3392

!

11/27/10 vs Austin Peay Governors Wot 78-70 2832

*

12/02/10 SOUTHERN UTAH W 81-65 2015

*

12/08/10 at #16/17 Illinois

12/04/10 UMKC W 99-62 2505L 63-74 15256

&

12/14/10 at #7/7 Tennessee

12/18/10 at Michigan

12/11/10 #7/8 MICHIGAN STATE L 76-77 17115W 89-82 16784L 51-69 9738

$

12/20/10 ROCHESTER COLLEGE W 103-79 2435

$

12/23/10 at #2/2 Ohio State

12/21/10 VALPARAISO L 102-103 2175L 63-92 13459

*

12/28/10 at Centenary W 98-71 661

*

12/30/10 at Oral Roberts W 85-77 3035

*

01/06/11 IUPUI W 85-71 2615

*

01/08/11 WESTERN ILLINOIS W 79-50 3805

*

01/15/11 at IPFW W 86-68 2969

*

01/20/11 at South Dakota State W 97-88 3241

*

01/22/11 at North Dakota State W 83-76 3761

*

01/27/11 ORAL ROBERTS W 88-85 2615

*

01/29/11 CENTENARY W 100-70 3675

*

02/03/11 at Western Illinois W 88-65 497

*^

02/05/11 at IUPUI L 88-100 2244

*

02/12/11 IPFW W 86-78 3805

*

02/17/11 NORTH DAKOTA STATE W 71-69 2865

*

02/19/11 SOUTH DAKOTA STATE W 105-96 3934

*

2/24/11 at UMKC W 103-90 1159

*

2/26/11 at Southern Utah W 82-68 2413

#

3/7/11 vs South Dakota State

3/8/11 vs Oral Roberts

* = Conference game

! = Chicago Invitational Challenge, campus sites first two games, Hoffman Estates, Ill. (Sears Centre)

& = at The Palace of Auburn Hills

$ = Lou Henson Award Holiday Tournament, Rochester, Mich. (O'rena)

^ = at Conseco Fieldhouse, Indianapolis, Ind.

3/5/11 vs Southern Utah W 82-66 0W 110-90 0W 90-76 2105
colobobcat66
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Posted: 3/16/2011 6:39 PM
MAC Sagarin schedule rankings 3/15
miami sucks-84
Kant St-151
Holy Toledo-169
Ohio U-183
Zippo marx-195
Bison U-207
Bugs-209
cow chips-217
northern lights u-220
emus-228
balls state-246
other michigan direction-253

Not a pretty picture to be sure.  Without Toledo, everyone would be about 20 spots higher I'm sure.  They will improve greatly next year IMHO.

Anyway, it looks like there's only one school scheduling like they really mean it and it's not us.  In all fairness to the Cats, we're pretty young.  Let's see who we schedule next year. BTW, Oakland has 3 seniors and 1 junior starting.  It may make a difference if we had that experience.
Last Edited: 3/16/2011 6:42:24 PM by colobobcat66
giacomo
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Posted: 3/16/2011 7:28 PM
I don't think you can just have a tough schedule when it suits you. Sometimes you'll take your lumps. And we've had threads like this before. If you consistently have a tough OOC schedule, people take you seriously. I think it helps your recruiting efforts, as well. But going the way we've been means we have to win the MAC tourney, then get a 15 seed.
JSF
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Posted: 3/16/2011 7:30 PM
Oakland's scheduling sure got them a great seed, huh?
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colobobcat66
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Posted: 3/16/2011 8:43 PM
Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
Oakland's scheduling sure got them a great seed, huh?


I wouldn't really call SOS of 129 that great anyway. 
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
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Posted: 3/16/2011 10:00 PM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
Oakland's scheduling sure got them a great seed, huh?


I wouldn't really call SOS of 129 that great anyway. 


Thats their total schedule. They have a non-conference SOS of 3.

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Oakland
colobobcat66
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Posted: 3/16/2011 10:23 PM
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:expand_more
Oakland's scheduling sure got them a great seed, huh?


I wouldn't really call SOS of 129 that great anyway. 


Thats their total schedule. They have a non-conference SOS of 3.

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Oakland


That's great, but they wouldn't made the tourny if they hadn't won the Summit anyway.  If you play a tough OCC schedule, you better win some.  They were 1-6 against the top 50 teams.  And their league is ranked below the MAC.  At least we didn't play a 1-29 team twice (although Toledo is almost as bad).
Last Edited: 3/16/2011 10:25:24 PM by colobobcat66
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/16/2011 11:24 PM
I am asked quite often about the MAC in the circles I run in...

for 3 years I have talked about the hires that have been made and apart from Zieg and Patton I thought most of the schools are in a good position to not only bring back the MAC with regard to recruiting prowess but should have the hoops accumen to schedule and win games OOC.

I think we will see the corner turn in the next 2 years withthe caliber of athletes coming in and the systems getting in place and all counterintention getting out of systems. CMU has more talent than they know what todo with ...in fact if Ford or Dambrot had that talent we would see a long run of dominance. Good thing Zieg is not a very good coach. I think Hawkins keeps hanging on and Bacari steps in when he is gone unless he waits for Ray to leave Detroit. Not sure what it is going to take Eastern to get better but I wlook for TOledo to start their rise. Northern needs to get better and this league will be back where it was.

Other than Kron scheduling better to be ready for the end of the season rather than relying on winning one title game every so many years I do think that the MAC office needs to look at a Valley approach and fining teams for not scheduling strong enough. Save for UT CC (part of the tourney) Illinois state a Valley opponenet, Delaware from the TOS era,  and Norfolk St most of our OOC teams are still playing and the ones that aren't were fairly competitive right up to end . ....IUPUI, Valpo,and most of those others turned out to be fairly quality opponents... a tribute to Operation swho spends months researching teams taht are on the rise or fall that will help is at end of year. We had to play the schedule inthe Convo early against certain teams to get our youngsters ready.  Now it is time to start challenging them and ratchet it up a notch.....clear across the MAC
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giacomo
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Posted: 3/18/2011 3:14 PM
You're right about Oakland. They wouldn't have gotten in without winning their tourney. Their conference has low RPI( I won't say "weak"), so they gave themselves a chance to get an at-large by their schedule. Maybe one more quality win gets them there, maybe two.
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Posted: 3/18/2011 9:46 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
If you play the kind of schedules most MAC teams play and only go .500, then you set yourself up for only meaningful games in the MAC tournament in March. Check out Oakland U's schedule. We used to play schedules like this and must in the future if we want to be taken seriously.


There was really nothing wrong with OU's schedule this season.  Out of 15 nonconf opponents, there was one top ten team (Kansas), two teams that made the NCAA (Oakland and Temps), and three other teams that made post-season tourneys (Valpo, Terd and Santa Clara).  Maybe one or two more Big 6/Top 25 teams would've been nice.  But the real problem with the schedule is that the Cats were 2-4 against these teams, and only 8-7 overall vs. nonconf.  You can't lose to the likes of St. Bonnie, IUPUI (home) and Robert Morris (home) and expect to get anywhere.  If the Cats had gone 3-0 against them and at least 2-1 vs. Oakland, Terd and Temps (all at home), they would've been 22-9 regular season, and would've had more serious consideration for The Dance or the NIT.
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giacomo
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Posted: 3/21/2011 2:06 PM
Most of the discussion on this board centers on how do we get an at-large bid and not have to relay on winning the MAC tounney every year. Even if we win 21 or 22 games this year, do you think our RPI is strong enough for an at-large bid? If the  MAC had a higher overall RPI and SOS, maybe our current schedule gets it done. But only Miami looks like they are trying to elevate their schedule. We would have to take things into our own hands.
Athens
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Posted: 3/21/2011 2:26 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
Most of the discussion on this board centers on how do we get an at-large bid and not have to relay on winning the MAC tounney every year. Even if we win 21 or 22 games this year, do you think our RPI is strong enough for an at-large bid? If the  MAC had a higher overall RPI and SOS, maybe our current schedule gets it done. But only Miami looks like they are trying to elevate their schedule. We would have to take things into our own hands.


I don't think the MAC is ever going to be strong enough where its going to deliver Ohio an at-large bid for what is only an above average season like the A-10 did this year for Richmond. Instead I really think the formula for Ohio is more in conference play, if Ohio can finish in the top 3 every year they'll have significant advantage in winning the MAC tourney over trying to do it as a #5 or #9 seed as we are known to do it now. I know Ohio is one of those MAC basketball programs like Miami or Ball State that in any given year could win the MAC tourney. The fact is if Ohio had 2 more regular season MAC wins the odds of the program making the NIT or NCAAs is significantly higher.
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OUVan
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Posted: 3/21/2011 2:27 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
Most of the discussion on this board centers on how do we get an at-large bid and not have to relay on winning the MAC tounney every year. Even if we win 21 or 22 games this year, do you think our RPI is strong enough for an at-large bid? If the  MAC had a higher overall RPI and SOS, maybe our current schedule gets it done. But only Miami looks like they are trying to elevate their schedule. We would have to take things into our own hands.


Our schedule was plenty strong enough to warrant an at-large berth. The problem is we lost. 21 or 22 wins isn't going to be nearly enough to get a MAC team an at-large.  26 or 27 wins with a regular season title does get us a bid. 
OUbobcat9092
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Posted: 3/21/2011 2:50 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
If you play the kind of schedules most MAC teams play and only go .500, then you set yourself up for only meaningful games in the MAC tournament in March. Check out Oakland U's schedule. We used to play schedules like this and must in the future if we want to be taken seriously.


There was really nothing wrong with OU's schedule this season.  Out of 15 nonconf opponents, there was one top ten team (Kansas), two teams that made the NCAA (Oakland and Temps), and FOUR other teams that made post-season tourneys (Valpo, Marshall, St. Bonaventure and Santa Clara).  Maybe one or two more Big 6/Top 25 teams would've been nice.  But the real problem with the schedule is that the Cats were 2-4 against these teams, and only 8-7 overall vs. nonconf.  You can't lose to the likes of IUPUI (home) and Robert Morris (home) and expect to get anywhere.  If the Cats had gone 3-0 against them and at least 2-1 vs. Oakland, Terd and Temps (all at home), they would've been 22-9 regular season, and would've had more serious consideration for The Dance or the NIT.


Fixed that for you...

St. Bonaventure is playing in a post-season tournament also (CBI)
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Last Edited: 3/21/2011 2:51:19 PM by OUbobcat9092
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 3/21/2011 11:29 PM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
Most of the discussion on this board centers on how do we get an at-large bid and not have to relay on winning the MAC tounney every year. Even if we win 21 or 22 games this year, do you think our RPI is strong enough for an at-large bid? If the  MAC had a higher overall RPI and SOS, maybe our current schedule gets it done. But only Miami looks like they are trying to elevate their schedule. We would have to take things into our own hands.


Our schedule was plenty strong enough to warrant an at-large berth. The problem is we lost. 21 or 22 wins isn't going to be nearly enough to get a MAC team an at-large.  26 or 27 wins with a regular season title does get us a bid. 


I'm sorry to kill about 47% of the threads on this board but no, we are not moving to a new conference soon, we are not going to bring a mid-range or better BCS team into Peden, and winning solves all problems:  attendance, game experience quality, bowl games, NCAA appearances, national rankings, lurking here by such as stupid cow and 'kron, poor in-bounds plays, mind-boggling last minute defense, and inappropriate use of sexual hardware.

Oops.  Winning may cause, not solve, that last one.
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