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OhioCatFan
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Posted: 3/28/2011 10:38 AM
As I posted in another thread, I think the answer for Ohio is to work very hard at cultivating donors who can do for us what a businessman in Findlay just did for the BG basketball program -- an endowment gift of $10 million.  If BUGS can get $10 million, I see no reason Ohio can't come up with a $20 million endowment exclusively for basketball.  Get to work you sports development guys and gals "there's gold in them thar hills"  as well as in the flatlands of Central Ohio! 

Edit: Seriously, I think that if Ohio and other top-notch MAC programs don't do something like this, we'll see BG bolt for another conference.  Either the MAC gets better to compete, or the old gang will be splitting up.
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Last Edited: 3/28/2011 10:40:46 AM by OhioCatFan
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Posted: 3/28/2011 10:39 AM
HeHateMiami wrote:expand_more

Blaming football is easy because football is to blame.  Many MAC schools are already close to being financially tapped out.  Hell, EMU can't even afford to buy out a clear failure of a hoops coach in Charles Ramsey for next year.  Even if we can justify spending millions more on athletics, for the rest of the MAC the money and fan support simply aren't there to justify spending significantly more on athletics programs.

I generally dislike it when military analogies are used in sports, but the MAC is trying to fight a two front war with a third world military budget.  As a result, we have little chance of success on either front.
 



But why not blame hockey? Or softball? Or any other sport?


Because I'd guess the budgets of those sports are a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of the Athletic Budget that MAC Schools spend on football.

(Not criticizing or defending that, just positing)


Football's budget contains, oh, about 85 scholarships, which is it's 1a budget line item.  So let's blame the student athletes?

And if we were FCS, schollies would still be the 1a line item.

So yeah, let's just drop football.  After all, Ohio has only been playing football for over 100 years.

And if you drop football, who is to say that hoops will be allocated a significantly higher budget than it is presently?  If its and buts were candies and nuts...
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Posted: 3/28/2011 10:43 AM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more

Blaming football is easy because football is to blame.  Many MAC schools are already close to being financially tapped out.  Hell, EMU can't even afford to buy out a clear failure of a hoops coach in Charles Ramsey for next year.  Even if we can justify spending millions more on athletics, for the rest of the MAC the money and fan support simply aren't there to justify spending significantly more on athletics programs.

I generally dislike it when military analogies are used in sports, but the MAC is trying to fight a two front war with a third world military budget.  As a result, we have little chance of success on either front.
 



But why not blame hockey? Or softball? Or any other sport?


Because most of the MAC doesn't offer scholarship hockey (although those that do are generally actually competitive on the national level, unlike ont he gridiron), while the other sports don't consume anywhere near the level of our athletic budgets that football does (even before accounting for the Title IX ramifications it creates).
OUVan
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Posted: 3/28/2011 10:47 AM
71 BOBCAT wrote:expand_more
Help me out here................Why would someone go from one mid-major to another? The natural progression would be to one of the major conference programs. TN just hired a mid-major guy, so these spots are available and the pay is even greater.
What was Geno thinking?







GO BOBCATS


Because one is a high mid-major and the other one used to be.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 3/28/2011 10:49 AM
D.A. wrote:expand_more
And if you drop football, who is to say that hoops will be allocated a significantly higher budget than it is presently?  If its and buts were candies and nuts...


First of all, one can acknowledge that football is impacting our lack of success on the basketball court without arguing that football should be dropped.  Indeed, we could maintain FBS football status while nevertheless diverting $500K from our collective football budgets to our basketball budgets.

Second, if we did actually drop football, we would only need to spend less than 1/10th of the current football budget to become one of the best funded mid-major basketball conferences.  The average MAC school could save $5.1 million per year on athletics by dropping football (and more if you factor in the related Title IX savings), while still increasing the basketball spending to a level over 10% more than the Horizon or CAA. 

Again, though, I'm not arguing that football should necessarily be dropped.  At the end of the day I'd probably agree that bottom-tier FBS is better than FCS.  But that doesn't mean that we need to be throwing as much money at football, with next to nothing to show for it, when we could have a much bigger impact by just diverting even a fraction of that same money to basketball.
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Posted: 3/28/2011 11:17 AM
I 'm not sure about the football issue. I think one poster here hit on the fact that you have to see what donations you lose by cutting out football. I never like the idea that youhave to cut. I am all about growing the fanbase and promoting the product and maxing out the potential support before rendering it non viable.

All the arguments about appalachia and rural settings fall dead on me with the number of great grads that have been at Ohio. If a teachers college ....which Ball State was until very very recently.....can raise 252 million I think we find a better and more efficient model for fund raising at a University with one of the finest Sports Ad programs, Business schools and Journalism colleges around. The only blinders that need to be taken off are the ones that continuouslly thwart Ohio and their dedication to getting better. Swing for the fences.
never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

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bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/28/2011 11:19 AM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
And if you drop football, who is to say that hoops will be allocated a significantly higher budget than it is presently?  If its and buts were candies and nuts...


First of all, one can acknowledge that football is impacting our lack of success on the basketball court without arguing that football should be dropped.  Indeed, we could maintain FBS football status while nevertheless diverting $500K from our collective football budgets to our basketball budgets.

Second, if we did actually drop football, we would only need to spend less than 1/10th of the current football budget to become one of the best funded mid-major basketball conferences.  The average MAC school could save $5.1 million per year on athletics by dropping football (and more if you factor in the related Title IX savings), while still increasing the basketball spending to a level over 10% more than the Horizon or CAA. 

Again, though, I'm not arguing that football should necessarily be dropped.  At the end of the day I'd probably agree that bottom-tier FBS is better than FCS.  But that doesn't mean that we need to be throwing as much money at football, with next to nothing to show for it, when we could have a much bigger impact by just diverting even a fraction of that same money to basketball.


Flomo

you are impressive.
never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 3/28/2011 11:20 AM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
. . . . The only blinders that need to be taken off are the ones that continuouslly thwart Ohio and their dedication to getting better. Swing for the fences.


Right on, my man! 
The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org
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Posted: 3/28/2011 11:57 AM
Congrats to Geno taking the money--I love seeing Ohio guys do well.  Congrats to Kent for not paying him more than he was worth.

Odds are excellent that Kent will get a coach that did as well as Geno...Ohio knocks him out in the first round at Cleveland and KD sends him to the NIT a year later.  Pay Geno $750,000 at Kent to keep him and they  can only hope they get better actual results at twice the cost or pay another up and comer $180,000 and most likely get similar results?  What would you do if you were the President of KSU?


 
71 BOBCAT
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Posted: 3/28/2011 11:57 AM
I seem to remember a coach @ Kent, prior to Christian who spend 1 year and was on to Arkansas. So this is just 1 example of going from a mid-major to the big time.
I wonder if Geno knew something else that was going on @ Kent that would have an impact on the teams performance next year? Time will tell on this one. Kind of like Calipari leaving Memphis for Kentucky...then all hell broke losse about some player not really being qualified, I think his name was Rose.





GO BOBCATS
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Posted: 3/28/2011 12:04 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
As I posted in another thread, I think the answer for Ohio is to work very hard at cultivating donors who can do for us what a businessman in Findlay just did for the BG basketball program -- an endowment gift of $10 million.  If BUGS can get $10 million, I see no reason Ohio can't come up with a $20 million endowment exclusively for basketball.  Get to work you sports development guys and gals "there's gold in them thar hills"  as well as in the flatlands of Central Ohio! 

Edit: Seriously, I think that if Ohio and other top-notch MAC programs don't do something like this, we'll see BG bolt for another conference.  Either the MAC gets better to compete, or the old gang will be splitting up.


There is money out there if you can make a compelling case.

I think Richmond  has an athletic endowment fund of $150 million. That's powerful. They use 4% a year to fund athletic scholarships. 

As for BG, I could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that Bill Frack is a retired school teacher who was an astute saver and investor over the years. His gift to Bowling Green is a series of irrevocable trust agreements from his estate through the community foundation in Hancock County. What a marvelous gift. He attended BG, but actually graduated from Findlay.
anorris
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Posted: 3/28/2011 12:23 PM
Wanted to chime in quick to clarify my position, as I'm one of those who advocates that $$$ tends to be the name of the game, and has given football a hard time.

I absolutely do not favor dropping football, or moving to FCS.  I largely agree with Flomo's point of view, but wanted to add another point that I think is often forgotten, which is the NCAA tournament win units.

The CAA will be getting just a hair under 13 million dollars over the next 6 years from this season's tournament.  That's nearly 180k per team per year for the next six years.  That kind of post-season success (don't forget, they're still collecting from George Mason's run in '06 this season) will certainly help you keep coaches, which make this boat go.  It's also an argument for a leaner, smaller conference, as units aren't split as many ways.

Compare to a bowl game, where you will struggle to break even, and then factor in that the NCAA pays all your travel expenses in the tournament.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 3/28/2011 12:36 PM
You may be right about Bill Frack being a school teacher.  I thought I had read somewhere that he owned a business in Findlay.  I just did a search and read several stories about him and not one mentioned his occupation.  I did see a reference to his father having been a school teacher.  During my quick search I did find a few items worth sharing:

1.  A quote from Frack:

Sixty years ago, it didn't cost much to run a Division I basketball program and be successful. Today, that is a very different case. If Butler and Gonzaga can do it, Bowling Green can do it. So I am following my passion and am proud to provide these future financial resources to take Falcon basketball to the next level.

2.  A quote from the AD:

The endowment will allow the program to better compensate coaches, elevate nonconference competition, allow for more home games and increase recruiting resources, among other advantages.

3. A link to a video in which Frack describes his commitment to BUGS and why he gave the gift:

I like BUGS


Finally, one of the articles I read also said that Frack gave $2 million in 2008 to help fund the Stroh Center.  I assume a Mr. Stroh must have given more, since the center will bare his name and the court will be called Bill Frack Court.
The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 3/28/2011 1:13 PM
anorris wrote:expand_more
Wanted to chime in quick to clarify my position, as I'm one of those who advocates that $$$ tends to be the name of the game, and has given football a hard time.

I absolutely do not favor dropping football, or moving to FCS.  I largely agree with Flomo's point of view, but wanted to add another point that I think is often forgotten, which is the NCAA tournament win units.

The CAA will be getting just a hair under 13 million dollars over the next 6 years from this season's tournament.  That's nearly 180k per team per year for the next six years.  That kind of post-season success (don't forget, they're still collecting from George Mason's run in '06 this season) will certainly help you keep coaches, which make this boat go.  It's also an argument for a leaner, smaller conference, as units aren't split as many ways.

Compare to a bowl game, where you will struggle to break even, and then factor in that the NCAA pays all your travel expenses in the tournament.


Great point anorris. 
HeHateMiami
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Posted: 3/28/2011 1:25 PM
71 BOBCAT wrote:expand_more
I seem to remember a coach @ Kent, prior to Christian who spend 1 year and was on to Arkansas. So this is just 1 example of going from a mid-major to the big time.
I wonder if Geno knew something else that was going on @ Kent that would have an impact on the teams performance next year? Time will tell on this one. Kind of like Calipari leaving Memphis for Kentucky...then all hell broke losse about some player not really being qualified, I think his name was Rose.


GO BOBCATS


I think you're over-reaching. Bradley is a better job. Period.

Edited to say: You're thinking of Stan Heath who took Kent State to the Elite 8 in 01-02 before heading to Arkansas. I think he's at South Florida now.
Last Edited: 3/28/2011 1:27:22 PM by HeHateMiami
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 3/28/2011 1:28 PM
anorris wrote:expand_more
Wanted to chime in quick to clarify my position, as I'm one of those who advocates that $$$ tends to be the name of the game, and has given football a hard time.

I absolutely do not favor dropping football, or moving to FCS.  I largely agree with Flomo's point of view, but wanted to add another point that I think is often forgotten, which is the NCAA tournament win units.

The CAA will be getting just a hair under 13 million dollars over the next 6 years from this season's tournament.  That's nearly 180k per team per year for the next six years.  That kind of post-season success (don't forget, they're still collecting from George Mason's run in '06 this season) will certainly help you keep coaches, which make this boat go.  It's also an argument for a leaner, smaller conference, as units aren't split as many ways.

Compare to a bowl game, where you will struggle to break even, and then factor in that the NCAA pays all your travel expenses in the tournament.


Definitely a proponent of a smaller conference. Even football/TV revenues get split fewer ways. Plus, if you have 8 teams instead of 12 vying for one or two NCAA bids maybe fan bases will give more of a damn.

Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 3/28/2011 1:37 PM
I'm all for people giving more of a damn.  
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 3/28/2011 1:45 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
I'm all for people giving more of a damn.  


Me too, Jeff. But I've come to the conclusion that at some places that just isn't going to happen. The only way to really change the equation is to change the revenue. That happens by a lot of people being passionate about your team.

Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

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Posted: 3/28/2011 2:03 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more

Blaming football is easy because football is to blame.  Many MAC schools are already close to being financially tapped out.  Hell, EMU can't even afford to buy out a clear failure of a hoops coach in Charles Ramsey for next year.  Even if we can justify spending millions more on athletics, for the rest of the MAC the money and fan support simply aren't there to justify spending significantly more on athletics programs.

I generally dislike it when military analogies are used in sports, but the MAC is trying to fight a two front war with a third world military budget.  As a result, we have little chance of success on either front.
 



But why not blame hockey? Or softball? Or any other sport?


Because most of the MAC doesn't offer scholarship hockey (although those that do are generally actually competitive on the national level, unlike ont he gridiron), while the other sports don't consume anywhere near the level of our athletic budgets that football does (even before accounting for the Title IX ramifications it creates).

Yeah, when there's only 47 teams playing, it's not so hard to be in the top 25. 
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 3/28/2011 2:29 PM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more

Blaming football is easy because football is to blame.  Many MAC schools are already close to being financially tapped out.  Hell, EMU can't even afford to buy out a clear failure of a hoops coach in Charles Ramsey for next year.  Even if we can justify spending millions more on athletics, for the rest of the MAC the money and fan support simply aren't there to justify spending significantly more on athletics programs.

I generally dislike it when military analogies are used in sports, but the MAC is trying to fight a two front war with a third world military budget.  As a result, we have little chance of success on either front.
 



But why not blame hockey? Or softball? Or any other sport?


Because most of the MAC doesn't offer scholarship hockey (although those that do are generally actually competitive on the national level, unlike ont he gridiron), while the other sports don't consume anywhere near the level of our athletic budgets that football does (even before accounting for the Title IX ramifications it creates).

Yeah, when there's only 47 teams playing, it's not so hard to be in the top 25. 


Sure, but with only 16 teams selected for the national tournament, the fact that both Miami and WMU were picked is significantly more impressive than being among the 70 out of 120 teams selected for a bowl game.
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Posted: 3/28/2011 2:35 PM

Kent State's players are fuming over how Ford handled this. Guess they all found about the hire on Twitter. If this is true, I lose some respect for Ford. He could have controlled how this was going to go down and should have told his players in person.

I'm still trying to figure out how Geno is worth $700,000?  Last time I checked, he's never coached a team to the NCAA tournament.
 

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT #NoMissesAllowed #NoOtherTeamInAmericaFlexesLikeOhio #11Months
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Posted: 3/28/2011 2:53 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
And if you drop football, who is to say that hoops will be allocated a significantly higher budget than it is presently?  If its and buts were candies and nuts...


First of all, one can acknowledge that football is impacting our lack of success on the basketball court without arguing that football should be dropped.  Indeed, we could maintain FBS football status while nevertheless diverting $500K from our collective football budgets to our basketball budgets.

Second, if we did actually drop football, we would only need to spend less than 1/10th of the current football budget to become one of the best funded mid-major basketball conferences.  The average MAC school could save $5.1 million per year on athletics by dropping football (and more if you factor in the related Title IX savings), while still increasing the basketball spending to a level over 10% more than the Horizon or CAA. 

Again, though, I'm not arguing that football should necessarily be dropped.  At the end of the day I'd probably agree that bottom-tier FBS is better than FCS.  But that doesn't mean that we need to be throwing as much money at football, with next to nothing to show for it, when we could have a much bigger impact by just diverting even a fraction of that same money to basketball.


Flomo

you are impressive.



If we're going to remain competitive even at the bottom tier of FBS, we need to spend more, not less.  If we don't invest in things such as an IPF, higher coaching salaries, increased recruiting budgets, nicer player amenities, etc. - at least to keep in step with our peer institutions - we might as well drop to FCS because we'll sink back into the morass of suckitude we experienced for 20-plus years.

 
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Posted: 3/28/2011 2:58 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
I'm all for people giving more of a damn.  


Me too, Jeff. But I've come to the conclusion that at some places that just isn't going to happen. The only way to really change the equation is to change the revenue. That happens by a lot of people being passionate about your team.


Ding Ding Ding!!! If we can't get our own alums to support the teams, all this other stuff is just window dressing.
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Posted: 3/28/2011 3:23 PM
SBH wrote:expand_more
If we're going to remain competitive even at the bottom tier of FBS, we need to spend more, not less.  If we don't invest in things such as an IPF, higher coaching salaries, increased recruiting budgets, nicer player amenities, etc. - at least to keep in step with our peer institutions - we might as well drop to FCS because we'll sink back into the morass of suckitude we experienced for 20-plus years.


What does "remaining competitive at the bottom tier of FBS" even mean?  Keeping up with the Sun Belt Conference?  Seriously, who cares?  We lose the vast majority of our bowl games and OOC games against legitimate competition as is.  I just don't see how diverting less than 1/10th of the average MAC football budget to the basketball side of things would have any significant impact on our football standing, when MAC football is already a laughingstock to 95% of the country.
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Posted: 3/28/2011 3:36 PM
We've invested  more money over the past six years to become competitive in the MAC.  If you want to cut our budget and reverse that trend, then we'll become a league bottom-feeder again.  If that's your plan, then it doesn't make sense to remain FBS.  Just stating an obvious conclusion based on your desire to cut football budget by 10 percent and presumably stop planned capital investments such as IPF. Personally, I am not at all convinced a 10% bump in our b-ball budget would make that big a difference in our overall program stature. Not with this coach.


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