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Topic:  Ohio Senate Bill 135

Topic:  Ohio Senate Bill 135
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 6,515

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  Message Not Read  Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/24/2021 3:46:53 PM 
There was a brief article about this bill in the paper a week or so ago. Check out bullet point number 2 under "Student tuition and fees" and bullet point number 2 under "Student financial aid."

https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/download?key=16361&forma...
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/24/2021 6:53:46 PM 
I haven't read the whole thing, but I saw a story about it from a month ago. The intent is to prod colleges to hire more counselors and others to help kids graduate. It seems that the sponsor recognizes that dropouts and colleges are both to blame when students don't graduate, but a big onus is on the college to make up for the student dropping out. One problem is that the schools with the worst graduation records -- generally smaller and poorer schools -- would get hit the hardest by "second-chance vouchers." Central State's graduation rate is only 42%, so they could get voucher requests from 58% of their students. O$U, the most prosperous school, has a 90% graduation rate, so it would feel little impact. Another problem is that ex-students would have ten years to ask for a voucher. That's an awful long time to keep a college on the hook. It should be no more than five years.

It seems like there's a lot to be done to fix the legislation and it's very broad-ranging, so a lot of toes are being stepped on. That's likely to slow down any consideration of it.


We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 499

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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/24/2021 7:04:14 PM 
The opt-out provision for student fees is pretty much a death knell for any athletic department not at OSU.
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Jeff McKinney
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Member Since: 11/12/2004
Post Count: 5,487

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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/24/2021 7:16:55 PM 
OUPride wrote:
The opt-out provision for student fees is pretty much a death knell for any athletic department not at OSU.


This has been the elephant in the mid major room for years. So many fans just blithely go on, oblivious to this potential destroyer of mid major athletics as we know it.

If you were a mid major coach or administrator, would this looming revolution make you more likely to get the hell outta Dodge at the earliest even halfway decent high major offer--even as an assistant if it paid around what the new iteration of stripped down mid major head coaching salaries could be? I would say "probably".

Let me know if you see deficiencies in my reasoning. I would love it if I'm overreacting, missing something, or just plain wrong.

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cbus cat fan
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Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 1,098

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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/24/2021 7:40:34 PM 
The longer we delay real reform in Higher Ed, the worse the coming implosion will be. Why do we have three large public universities in Northeast Ohio within 50 miles of each other (Akron, Kent State and Youngstown State) in an area that in the last 50 years has seen some of the biggest population loss in the nation? Why was Shawnee State created in the most sparsely populated part of the state when our near-by beloved Alma mater could use some of their funding?

Why are the building trades begging for carpenters, electricians and plumbers, people who make 50K-100K, and yet we have politicians telling kids they need to go to college when not every one is meant to go to a four year college? Some of these kids will end up in debt when they could be trained at those 50K-100K jobs mentioned above and be debt free?

Why are politicians worried about student activities fees which will be a disaster for the MAC, when the elephant in the room is everything I mentioned in the two paragraphs above this one? It is simply mind boggling!

Last Edited: 4/24/2021 7:41:28 PM by cbus cat fan

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/25/2021 10:49:17 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
The longer we delay real reform in Higher Ed, the worse the coming implosion will be. Why do we have three large public universities in Northeast Ohio within 50 miles of each other (Akron, Kent State and Youngstown State) in an area that in the last 50 years has seen some of the biggest population loss in the nation? Why was Shawnee State created in the most sparsely populated part of the state when our near-by beloved Alma mater could use some of their funding?

Why are the building trades begging for carpenters, electricians and plumbers, people who make 50K-100K, and yet we have politicians telling kids they need to go to college when not every one is meant to go to a four year college? Some of these kids will end up in debt when they could be trained at those 50K-100K jobs mentioned above and be debt free?

Why are politicians worried about student activities fees which will be a disaster for the MAC, when the elephant in the room is everything I mentioned in the two paragraphs above this one? It is simply mind boggling!


Why does Ohio have more public doctoral programs in History, Political Science, Chemistry, Physics and on and on than California (3 1/2 x the population and 3x the number of public four-year colleges) despite almost all of them not being able to rank in the NRC top 100? Why do Ohio public universities maintain their own community college systems (branch campuses) when there are perfectly good community colleges all over the state?

The answer to your and my questions (except Shawnee) lie in the 1960's, and unfortunately, Ohio was on the wrong side of many of these decisions.
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/25/2021 11:34:50 AM 
OUPride wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
The longer we delay real reform in Higher Ed, the worse the coming implosion will be. Why do we have three large public universities in Northeast Ohio within 50 miles of each other (Akron, Kent State and Youngstown State) in an area that in the last 50 years has seen some of the biggest population loss in the nation? Why was Shawnee State created in the most sparsely populated part of the state when our near-by beloved Alma mater could use some of their funding?

Why are the building trades begging for carpenters, electricians and plumbers, people who make 50K-100K, and yet we have politicians telling kids they need to go to college when not every one is meant to go to a four year college? Some of these kids will end up in debt when they could be trained at those 50K-100K jobs mentioned above and be debt free?

Why are politicians worried about student activities fees which will be a disaster for the MAC, when the elephant in the room is everything I mentioned in the two paragraphs above this one? It is simply mind boggling!


Why does Ohio have more public doctoral programs in History, Political Science, Chemistry, Physics and on and on than California (3 1/2 x the population and 3x the number of public four-year colleges) despite almost all of them not being able to rank in the NRC top 100? Why do Ohio public universities maintain their own community college systems (branch campuses) when there are perfectly good community colleges all over the state?

The answer to your and my questions (except Shawnee) lie in the 1960's, and unfortunately, Ohio was on the wrong side of many of these decisions.


Very interesting points OU Pride. I imagine that came in an era in the 1960s when it seemed like the sky was the limit for our beloved Alma mater's growth due to the economic health of the state and the exponential rise in the amount of young people headed to college. The mid and late 1970s were a harbinger of what was to come for the university and Higher Ed in general.

As to your point about the plethora of doctorate programs. I do know some graudates in those fields who have done well. However, I know many more who couldn't find a job with those degress and are angry and bitter about being saddled with debt years later with nothing to show for it.

I am simply amazed when I travel the state and talk to other educational administrators who talk about students not being told about how few jobs there are in certain teaching certficiation fields like primary elementary education, Social Studies and Physcial Education. The universities are making money off the back of these students and in many cases not telling them how dire their chances are for getting employed in those disciplines.

I would imagine the same holds true for some of those doctoral programs you mentioned. It is like getting a law degree from a lower tier law school. It it not that there aren't some good professor at those schools, or with the right connections and breaks that you couldn't get a job. However, it is infinitely harder. I knew a couple of guys years ago who to me seemed pretty sharp. One went to a better law school than the other and was able to intern at a pretty prominent firm. He was given a signing bonus traveled around Europe and skied in Argentina for a week in July, before he began full time in September. The other toiled at a back breaking job until he finally got a job in his field a year later. It took him years to pay off his law school debt, while the other guy did it in a few years and lives the high life. The guy who went to the lower tier law school does OK, but is bitter to say the least when he talks about the two different paths he and his friend took. A cautionary tale to say the least.

Last Edited: 4/25/2021 11:37:28 AM by cbus cat fan

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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/25/2021 12:22:06 PM 
Part of the problem with some of the industries is that very few schools advertise their classes for them. Community colleges don't advertise their "shop" classes but instead push the "sexier" programs, like computers, healthcare and law enforcement. A lot of them are looking for students who want a cheaper alternative to full-blown universities for the first two years, then use the credits to get into a four-year school for a bachelor's. And since hardly any four-year colleges offer "shop" classes, the community colleges just don't advertise them. I've seen commercials for some chain that promotes "exciting careers" in HVAC and another that teaches auto repair, but I'm not sure they even have offices in Ohio.

Do colleges try to read the tea leaves as to what careers will be hot five or ten years down the road and try to develop programs to prepare for those careers? Or do they just keep doing what they do and try to adjust after a career becomes hot? The latter would seem to be a reason why some people get degrees but can't find jobs in their field.


We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/25/2021 12:38:37 PM 
If I were King of the Forest, I'd do a few things:

1. Roll the branch campuses and community colleges into a centralized state community college system.

2. Take a pick ax to the number of doctoral programs scattered around the state. Completely remove politics from the situation and go by the NRC rankings. Depending on the discipline 2-4 programs would be left standing.

3. Get rid of a law school. It's insane that Ohio funds as many public university law schools (5) as California. The obvious choice would be to close down Akron since CSU is better located and better quality. Which brings me to....

4. Merge KSU, Akron and NEOMED into one university and then do the same with Toledo and BGSU. I'm not sure what to do with Wright State.

5. Formally structure the system into tiers like California has done. Not everybody gets to be Berkeley. Ohio created a free for all in the 60s where every campus felt that if they just added on enough graduate programs, they could turn themselves into an AAU school. California at the same time instituted a rigidly structured system that kept schools in their lanes. California ended up with a more affordable, more respected system. California ended up with six public AAU schools; Ohio still has only one.

Last Edited: 4/25/2021 12:40:07 PM by OUPride

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/25/2021 8:10:08 PM 
Iím not sure what to say about a student selecting a major that does not pay off and goes deep into debt. Iím thinking they need to do a little more research before they choose. The golden era of everyone going to college because loans are easy is over. The current costs are way over an inflation adjusted cost from the 70s and 80s. Higher Ed is in for a major transformation.
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OUPride
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Post Count: 499

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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/25/2021 9:27:12 PM 
giacomo wrote:
Iím not sure what to say about a student selecting a major that does not pay off and goes deep into debt. Iím thinking they need to do a little more research before they choose. The golden era of everyone going to college because loans are easy is over. The current costs are way over an inflation adjusted cost from the 70s and 80s. Higher Ed is in for a major transformation.


Major depends on the school. If you were applying to a NYC investment bank or Silicon Valley venture capital fund would you rather have a history degree from Dartmouth or a business degree from Bowling Green? It's a more complex equation than simply how utilitarian the degree is. Keep in mind that the most elite colleges in the country don't even offer undergraduate business majors, even if they have some of the best MBA programs in the world.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/26/2021 10:15:47 AM 
MSNBC had a segment this morning about companies -- even Wall Street firms -- that are no longer requiring a college degree for their corporate jobs. They're focusing on skill sets needed for jobs instead. The rising cost of college was cited as the reason for this shift. Some, like Apple, offer a six-month online training course for $39/month. They featured an investment worker who has no college degree but went through her company's program.


We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

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giacomo
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Post Count: 2,027

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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/26/2021 12:21:48 PM 
For the most part, what does a college degree signify? The ability to set a goal and achieve it, and that someone should be a little more mature for having had the experience. I guess what that is worth is in the eye of the beholder.
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greencat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Ohio Senate Bill 135
   Posted: 4/26/2021 1:35:06 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
The longer we delay real reform in Higher Ed, the worse the coming implosion will be. Why do we have three large public universities in Northeast Ohio within 50 miles of each other (Akron, Kent State and Youngstown State) in an area that in the last 50 years has seen some of the biggest population loss in the nation? Why was Shawnee State created in the most sparsely populated part of the state when our near-by beloved Alma mater could use some of their funding?



Shawnee State's roots date back to 1945, when Ohio University established an academic center in Portsmouth.
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