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Topic:  RE: higher ed in trouble

Topic:  RE: higher ed in trouble
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/5/2020 1:30:16 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
UpSan Bobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in today's The Record (sorry it won't link) about
a student suing Montclair State University for a prorated refund on tuition.

The suit is based on his position that the on line learning options offered by the school are "subpar" compared to on campus,especially for a student like him,
majoring in film.

He also says he paid student fees for access to film making equipment,he no longer has.

Be interesting to see how this plays out.

I would think that,if he wins,there's going to be an avalanche of there suits.




Saw an article yesterday that said similar suits have been filed against 25 other colleges/universities.




I don't really see a case on having tuition refunded, but it probably would be fair to have a partial refund of certain fees, which for certain programs are extremely high.


The argument is that the on-line classes are "subpar" compared to on campus.

I can see this argument not being viable in the future,if the scope of
an on line class is published in advance.

That was not the case here,where on campus classes were transitioned to on-line virtually "overnight".

A number of classes couldn't provide the same level of education online.
The Post had an article about a professor saying that his Astronomy class
was a shell of itself on line.

What gives more credence to the argument is the fact that a number of schools like M.I.T. and the Ivy's saying that on-line classes don't provide the level of education expected of their institutions and that, if they can't offer on campus classes,they may shut down,until they can.




And there are Profs who stated ďscrew-in, Iím not doing online, you all pass. Not much value in that education
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mf279801
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/5/2020 1:31:55 PM 
UpSan Bobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in today's The Record (sorry it won't link) about
a student suing Montclair State University for a prorated refund on tuition.

The suit is based on his position that the on line learning options offered by the school are "subpar" compared to on campus,especially for a student like him,
majoring in film.

He also says he paid student fees for access to film making equipment,he no longer has.

Be interesting to see how this plays out.

I would think that,if he wins,there's going to be an avalanche of there suits.




Saw an article yesterday that said similar suits have been filed against 25 other colleges/universities.




I don't really see a case on having tuition refunded, but it probably would be fair to have a partial refund of certain fees, which for certain programs are extremely high.


Right now, on the Ohio website (www.ohio.edu/bursar/undergraduate-tuition ), ďAthens Undergraduate TuitionĒ comes out to $508/credit-hour for Ohio residents (The instructional fee is listed as $449/credit-hour).

In contrast, ďeCampus Undergraduate TuitionĒ comes out to $240/credit-hour for Ohio residents ($243/credit hour for non-residents), of which $237/credit-hour is labeled as instructional fee.

Based on its own pricing structure, this would seem to indicate that the university does not consider eLearning to be of the same quality as in-person learning. Leaving aside the last half of Spring Semester 2020 as a separate discussion,, i think most universities would find it EXTREMELY difficult to hold the line on tuition pricing if they are or are likely to be online-only for Fall-2020
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/5/2020 7:50:31 PM 
Boom...boom...out go the lights!

Akron eliminating 6 of 11 colleges.

https://www.cleveland.com/education/2020/05/university-of...
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/5/2020 11:12:48 PM 
Under the cover of the Coronavirus, it seems many Higher Ed institutions are finally addressing measures that needed to be done long ago. I think they are acting now while there is still a lot of fear and realization that changes have to be made. I am an optimist by nature, so I believe a vaccine will be found quicker than we think and the economy will recover quicker that we think. However by June 30, I believe many will join Akron in making big cuts. Now we are concluding the first year of the state's biennial budget, so that gives some leeway in how they deal with this. If this were the second year, I am not sure what would occur. One administrator told me that he never thought he would see closures or consolidation by state school, now he's not so sure. Youngstown State, Kent State and Akron are within about 50+ miles of each other in a region of the state and country that's in a demographic spiral.

There are many side stories to Higher Ed. For example there are a couple dozen community colleges across the state, including technical colleges who all have their own governing boards, trustees etc. Many of these institutions aren't much bigger than a large suburban high school. One administrator told me that there are so many money saving possibilities just in this structure, not to mention the dozens to hundreds of administrators added by each mid size and large institution since 2000.

Another administrator told me that there are dozens of heath care professionals hired since 2000 by mid size and large universities to deal with student stress and well being. This administrator told me you can't tell students to suck it up, which is what those of us before 2000 were told. Now we have to provide all kinds of medical care and counseling which isn't cheap. If you try getting rid of that, you are cold and insensitive, and that's not going to happen today, she said.

She went on to say that athletics has a target on it's back because people see coaches salaries for big time sports like football and basketball. However, the non-revenue generating sports cost money too. She's not a big sports fan, but feels there is far more waste that could be cut in college administration and promotion, especially bigger schools. Yet, small colleges need promotion because they need to promote what makes their niche programs worth the price. While some students like big schools in big cities, not everyone desires that and that's where small colleges make their mark.

When I mentioned to the first administrator that I recently told my wife that college might be totally different in cost and outlook when our kids arrive in a few years, he laughed. My kids are older than yours he said, I told my wife that I haven't the faintest clue what it might look like when my kids arrive in 3-4 years, and I have been in the business my whole life, he concluded.

Last Edited: 5/5/2020 11:15:26 PM by cbus cat fan

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/6/2020 12:24:55 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
Under the cover of the Coronavirus, it seems many Higher Ed institutions are finally addressing measures that needed to be done long ago. I think they are acting now while there is still a lot of fear and realization that changes have to be made. I am an optimist by nature, so I believe a vaccine will be found quicker than we think and the economy will recover quicker that we think. However by June 30, I believe many will join Akron in making big cuts. Now we are concluding the first year of the state's biennial budget, so that gives some leeway in how they deal with this. If this were the second year, I am not sure what would occur. One administrator told me that he never thought he would see closures or consolidation by state school, now he's not so sure. Youngstown State, Kent State and Akron are within about 50+ miles of each other in a region of the state and country that's in a demographic spiral.

There are many side stories to Higher Ed. For example there are a couple dozen community colleges across the state, including technical colleges who all have their own governing boards, trustees etc. Many of these institutions aren't much bigger than a large suburban high school. One administrator told me that there are so many money saving possibilities just in this structure, not to mention the dozens to hundreds of administrators added by each mid size and large institution since 2000.

Another administrator told me that there are dozens of heath care professionals hired since 2000 by mid size and large universities to deal with student stress and well being. This administrator told me you can't tell students to suck it up, which is what those of us before 2000 were told. Now we have to provide all kinds of medical care and counseling which isn't cheap. If you try getting rid of that, you are cold and insensitive, and that's not going to happen today, she said.

She went on to say that athletics has a target on it's back because people see coaches salaries for big time sports like football and basketball. However, the non-revenue generating sports cost money too. She's not a big sports fan, but feels there is far more waste that could be cut in college administration and promotion, especially bigger schools. Yet, small colleges need promotion because they need to promote what makes their niche programs worth the price. While some students like big schools in big cities, not everyone desires that and that's where small colleges make their mark.

When I mentioned to the first administrator that I recently told my wife that college might be totally different in cost and outlook when our kids arrive in a few years, he laughed. My kids are older than yours he said, I told my wife that I haven't the faintest clue what it might look like when my kids arrive in 3-4 years, and I have been in the business my whole life, he concluded.


Or they are acting now because the state is going to absolutely gut funding and they have no choice. Just wait, hammer is going to drop in Athens, but just like evertyhing else, just takes a little longer to get to use.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/6/2020 9:37:20 AM 
The severity of the coming moment is going to be magnified greatly due to the type of system that arose in Ohio from the mid 60s onward. The system was over built and under regulated. Four year campuses all went on empire building sprees determined to turn themselves into the next Berkeley. The community college system was overbuilt and decentralized at the same time that a completely redundant branch campus system was being put in place by the four year colleges.

For a long time, the city-state nature of Ohio politics, periods of favorable demographics and some of the nation's highest tuition levels propped this absurd system up, but judgement day was inevitable. The pandemic was merely the spark on a field of dry foliage.

Now contrast that to the centralized and highly regulated system that California instituted at roughly the same time: the "Master Plan" of Pat Brown and Clark Kerr preceded the unregulated free for all of Jim Rhodes and John Millett by only a few years. In California, the community colleges are under a centralized board of regents. The Cal State colleges are barred from doctoral programs and basic research. Even within the UC system, there is an understood hierarchy. Imagine how long a Chancellor at UC Irvine would last if he went around giving interviews demanding to be a co-flagship with Berkeley in the manner that the former Cincinnati President did?

Not only did California build the global standard for quality in a public higher education system, but they've done it with some of the lowest tuition levels in the nation. And I have a feeling that, while their campuses and systems will definitely need to do some belt tightening in the near future, we will see nothing resembling the full-on bloodletting that appears to be just around the corner in Ohio.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/6/2020 10:26:18 AM 
OUPride wrote:
Boom...boom...out go the lights!

Akron eliminating 6 of 11 colleges.

https://www.cleveland.com/education/2020/05/university-of...


Posted about 9 hours ago in this same thread. :)

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/6/2020 10:52:34 AM 
OUPride: Let me just add that Ohio's branch campuses (as they were then called) were instituted much earlier than any others in the state (from what I've been told). They were begun way before the 1960s under a dean whose last name was Armbruster. I don't recall his first name. I heard my father, who began teaching at Ohio in the late 1930s, talk about the visionary leadership of Dean Armbruster in this regard.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/6/2020 5:13:57 PM 
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride: Let me just add that Ohio's branch campuses (as they were then called) were instituted much earlier than any others in the state (from what I've been told). They were begun way before the 1960s under a dean whose last name was Armbruster. I don't recall his first name. I heard my father, who began teaching at Ohio in the late 1930s, talk about the visionary leadership of Dean Armbruster in this regard.


Here's your guy, I think.

Armbruster House (dorm on the new south) was named in honor of Adolph Henry Armbruster. A native of Auburn NY, he was educated at Western Reserve University, Harvard University and University of PIttsburg. He was a director of the School of Commerce and Professor of Finance at Ohio University. He was instrumental in establishing, a nationally recognized business college. The College was voted full membership into the national accrediting organization for business schools one year before his death. Armbruster established Beta Gamma Sigma, the honorary fraternity within the College of Commerce.

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/6/2020 11:02:37 PM 
In addition to Akron, Kent State and Youngstown State both announce cuts. As I mentioned on a previous, a state school administrator told me he didn't think it was politically possible for a big Northeast Ohio merger, but if it ever was going to happen now is the time. Think about it, you would be hard pressed to find another state where three state schools are that close to each other, and that part of the state has seen a rapidly declining population trend going on 50 years. Something has to give.

https://www.beaconjournal.com/news/20200506/kent-state-cu...
https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/ysu-president-taking ... /

Last Edited: 5/6/2020 11:05:10 PM by cbus cat fan

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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/7/2020 6:49:26 AM 
There's an article in today's The Record that,to try to offset enrollment drops and other economic impacts of Covid,New Jersey is launching a program to try and bring out of state college students back home.

They'll be providing incentives including how they accept transfer
credits.
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/7/2020 9:25:45 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in today's The Record that,to try to offset enrollment drops and other economic impacts of Covid,New Jersey is launching a program to try and bring out of state college students back home.

They'll be providing incentives including how they accept transfer
credits.


Thatís a great thing!
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/7/2020 7:26:40 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in today's The Record that,to try to offset enrollment drops and other economic impacts of Covid,New Jersey is launching a program to try and bring out of state college students back home.

They'll be providing incentives including how they accept transfer
credits.


The Miami administration has to be crapping themselves in fear that Illinois might do something similar. NJ's move though is more likely to hurt OSU since they do much better with NE kids than Miami.

On a more somber note, these kinds of moves will make Ohio's intention of upping out of state enrollment much more difficult for a couple of years.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/7/2020 7:36:34 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OhioCatFan wrote:
OUPride: Let me just add that Ohio's branch campuses (as they were then called) were instituted much earlier than any others in the state (from what I've been told). They were begun way before the 1960s under a dean whose last name was Armbruster. I don't recall his first name. I heard my father, who began teaching at Ohio in the late 1930s, talk about the visionary leadership of Dean Armbruster in this regard.


Here's your guy, I think.

Armbruster House (dorm on the new south) was named in honor of Adolph Henry Armbruster. A native of Auburn NY, he was educated at Western Reserve University, Harvard University and University of PIttsburg. He was a director of the School of Commerce and Professor of Finance at Ohio University. He was instrumental in establishing, a nationally recognized business college. The College was voted full membership into the national accrediting organization for business schools one year before his death. Armbruster established Beta Gamma Sigma, the honorary fraternity within the College of Commerce.



Thanks, Alan. Interesting that that description doesn't mention his key role in starting the branch system. Sounds like this was written to highlight his work in starting the Business College, of which he was later the first dean. I just looked up in my Hoover History and see that he was also acting dean of the College of Applied Sciences (precursor of the College of Engineering) for a time. He was a man of many talents.

Last Edited: 5/7/2020 7:37:32 PM by OhioCatFan


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/7/2020 11:32:00 PM 
I seriously doubt any legacy kids from Miami are going to be impacted in the least by any change to Illinois law. I had a Ohio 5 administrator tell me that most of the Ohio 5 students come from out of state. She told me that with the exception of Dennison, we pretty much are made up of rich liberal kids from the Northeast. There grandparents were all Mr. Howell Country Club Republicans, but that changed with their parents. The truth of the matter, she told me that if they doubled their tuition, they wouldn't have much to worry about, since a lot of them pay full freight and even give large donations to token poor kids who aren't from the same demographics as are the majority. The core make-up of places like Miami, the Ohio 5 etc aren't going to be impacted by this sort of legislation.

Even at our beloved Alma mater, kids come from backgrounds wealthier than I could have imagined when I was there in the 80s. I can remember when the Athens Station project was being built, I thought who could afford that? A couple years ago, I had some time on my hands and I was walking around campus and made my way to the old depot and the Athens Station Apartments. It was a nice Saturday morning before a football game, when I overheard a young woman tell her mother and father that surely they didn't expect her to live in that dump next year, as they were walking by Athens Station. How times have changed. Kids expect a lot and so do their parents, besides the campus offerings, many are concerned with aesthetics and air conditioning. I doubt that many of the elite (even our own Bobcat elite) are going to fret over out of state tuition changes passed by state legislatures. There are more students that we probably can imagine who come to a particular campus simply because of prestige and the programs offered. The cost of it is way down the list for many of them, for the simple reason that mom and dad are paying for it.

Last Edited: 5/7/2020 11:54:44 PM by cbus cat fan

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/8/2020 9:19:51 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
I seriously doubt any legacy kids from Miami are going to be impacted in the least by any change to Illinois law. I had a Ohio 5 administrator tell me that most of the Ohio 5 students come from out of state. She told me that with the exception of Dennison, we pretty much are made up of rich liberal kids from the Northeast. There grandparents were all Mr. Howell Country Club Republicans, but that changed with their parents. The truth of the matter, she told me that if they doubled their tuition, they wouldn't have much to worry about, since a lot of them pay full freight and even give large donations to token poor kids who aren't from the same demographics as are the majority. The core make-up of places like Miami, the Ohio 5 etc aren't going to be impacted by this sort of legislation.

Even at our beloved Alma mater, kids come from backgrounds wealthier than I could have imagined when I was there in the 80s. I can remember when the Athens Station project was being built, I thought who could afford that? A couple years ago, I had some time on my hands and I was walking around campus and made my way to the old depot and the Athens Station Apartments. It was a nice Saturday morning before a football game, when I overheard a young woman tell her mother and father that surely they didn't expect her to live in that dump next year, as they were walking by Athens Station. How times have changed. Kids expect a lot and so do their parents, besides the campus offerings, many are concerned with aesthetics and air conditioning. I doubt that many of the elite (even our own Bobcat elite) are going to fret over out of state tuition changes passed by state legislatures. There are more students that we probably can imagine who come to a particular campus simply because of prestige and the programs offered. The cost of it is way down the list for many of them, for the simple reason that mom and dad are paying for it.


For a public university Miami has a very large percent of students from the top 1% at 7% (vs 2% at OSU/>1% at Ohio and for comparison's sake 20% at Kenyon), but I feel that a lot of those Chicago kids are coming from comfortably affluent but not wealthy families. What happens when there's white collar layoffs or no bonuses in the coming years? In any event, I think it will more likely affect the decisions of new students rather than current ones. If a kid has both an admission to U of I and Miami, how is the percent who choose U of I going to shift? OSU has the deep pockets to throw scholarship money at their oos students and admits; Miami doesn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobi...

Last Edited: 5/8/2020 10:01:43 AM by OUPride

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/8/2020 10:11:35 AM 
OUPride wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
I seriously doubt any legacy kids from Miami are going to be impacted in the least by any change to Illinois law. I had a Ohio 5 administrator tell me that most of the Ohio 5 students come from out of state. She told me that with the exception of Dennison, we pretty much are made up of rich liberal kids from the Northeast. There grandparents were all Mr. Howell Country Club Republicans, but that changed with their parents. The truth of the matter, she told me that if they doubled their tuition, they wouldn't have much to worry about, since a lot of them pay full freight and even give large donations to token poor kids who aren't from the same demographics as are the majority. The core make-up of places like Miami, the Ohio 5 etc aren't going to be impacted by this sort of legislation.

Even at our beloved Alma mater, kids come from backgrounds wealthier than I could have imagined when I was there in the 80s. I can remember when the Athens Station project was being built, I thought who could afford that? A couple years ago, I had some time on my hands and I was walking around campus and made my way to the old depot and the Athens Station Apartments. It was a nice Saturday morning before a football game, when I overheard a young woman tell her mother and father that surely they didn't expect her to live in that dump next year, as they were walking by Athens Station. How times have changed. Kids expect a lot and so do their parents, besides the campus offerings, many are concerned with aesthetics and air conditioning. I doubt that many of the elite (even our own Bobcat elite) are going to fret over out of state tuition changes passed by state legislatures. There are more students that we probably can imagine who come to a particular campus simply because of prestige and the programs offered. The cost of it is way down the list for many of them, for the simple reason that mom and dad are paying for it.


For a public university Miami has a very large percent of students from the top 1% at 7% (vs 2% at OSU/>1% at Ohio and for comparison's sake 20% at Kenyon), but I feel that a lot of those Chicago kids are coming from comfortably affluent but not wealthy families. What happens when there's white collar layoffs or no bonuses in the coming years? In any event, I think it will more likely affect the decisions of new students rather than current ones. If a kid has both an admission to U of I and Miami, how is the percent who choose U of I going to shift? OSU has the deep pockets to throw scholarship money at their oos students and admits; Miami doesn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobi...


Hate to use the quote box but I wanted to keep this in context. At the risk of sounding tone deaf, $119,000 isn't a huge amount of money when you consider that the average salary for a family with two adults teaching school in Athens is $134,000, Dublin $165,000 and Coshocton where I did my student teaching $111,000. The whole state of Ohio is $113,000. Most teachers who have children going to college make above those averages in their respective districts. In Miami's case, it's more about the level of education attainment of the parents than anything. Regardless, all schools are going to have to up their game in terms of recruiting students which means it's time to engage some sales professionals outside the academy to get that done.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/8/2020 4:44:12 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
I seriously doubt any legacy kids from Miami are going to be impacted in the least by any change to Illinois law. I had a Ohio 5 administrator tell me that most of the Ohio 5 students come from out of state. She told me that with the exception of Dennison, we pretty much are made up of rich liberal kids from the Northeast. There grandparents were all Mr. Howell Country Club Republicans, but that changed with their parents. The truth of the matter, she told me that if they doubled their tuition, they wouldn't have much to worry about, since a lot of them pay full freight and even give large donations to token poor kids who aren't from the same demographics as are the majority. The core make-up of places like Miami, the Ohio 5 etc aren't going to be impacted by this sort of legislation.

Even at our beloved Alma mater, kids come from backgrounds wealthier than I could have imagined when I was there in the 80s. I can remember when the Athens Station project was being built, I thought who could afford that? A couple years ago, I had some time on my hands and I was walking around campus and made my way to the old depot and the Athens Station Apartments. It was a nice Saturday morning before a football game, when I overheard a young woman tell her mother and father that surely they didn't expect her to live in that dump next year, as they were walking by Athens Station. How times have changed. Kids expect a lot and so do their parents, besides the campus offerings, many are concerned with aesthetics and air conditioning. I doubt that many of the elite (even our own Bobcat elite) are going to fret over out of state tuition changes passed by state legislatures. There are more students that we probably can imagine who come to a particular campus simply because of prestige and the programs offered. The cost of it is way down the list for many of them, for the simple reason that mom and dad are paying for it.


For a public university Miami has a very large percent of students from the top 1% at 7% (vs 2% at OSU/>1% at Ohio and for comparison's sake 20% at Kenyon), but I feel that a lot of those Chicago kids are coming from comfortably affluent but not wealthy families. What happens when there's white collar layoffs or no bonuses in the coming years? In any event, I think it will more likely affect the decisions of new students rather than current ones. If a kid has both an admission to U of I and Miami, how is the percent who choose U of I going to shift? OSU has the deep pockets to throw scholarship money at their oos students and admits; Miami doesn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobi...


Hate to use the quote box but I wanted to keep this in context. At the risk of sounding tone deaf, $119,000 isn't a huge amount of money when you consider that the average salary for a family with two adults teaching school in Athens is $134,000, Dublin $165,000 and Coshocton where I did my student teaching $111,000. The whole state of Ohio is $113,000. Most teachers who have children going to college make above those averages in their respective districts. In Miami's case, it's more about the level of education attainment of the parents than anything. Regardless, all schools are going to have to up their game in terms of recruiting students which means it's time to engage some sales professionals outside the academy to get that done.



Or schools will lower standards to increase numbers.

I love those who believe that all these others are in trouble but act like OHIO is sitting in a Cats Bird Seat. Before this hit, applications were down 10%, the acceptance deadline has been pushed out to June. Itís not like we are sitting with a royal flush.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/8/2020 6:33:03 PM 


[/QUOTE]

Or schools will lower standards to increase numbers.

I love those who believe that all these others are in trouble but act like OHIO is sitting in a Cats Bird Seat. Before this hit, applications were down 10%, the acceptance deadline has been pushed out to June. Itís not like we are sitting with a royal flush. [/QUOTE]

Bingo! When times are tough, give the product away. Problem is that sets an artificially "low price" for the goods being delivered. Some would contend that by establishing credentials for entry to many professions where the credential isn't really needed, we've created a false since of importance associated with those credentials. Take a look at OU job postings in the past and you'd be astounded at how many non-teaching jobs require a masters degree.

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OUPride
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Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 451

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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/9/2020 10:19:05 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
I seriously doubt any legacy kids from Miami are going to be impacted in the least by any change to Illinois law. I had a Ohio 5 administrator tell me that most of the Ohio 5 students come from out of state. She told me that with the exception of Dennison, we pretty much are made up of rich liberal kids from the Northeast. There grandparents were all Mr. Howell Country Club Republicans, but that changed with their parents. The truth of the matter, she told me that if they doubled their tuition, they wouldn't have much to worry about, since a lot of them pay full freight and even give large donations to token poor kids who aren't from the same demographics as are the majority. The core make-up of places like Miami, the Ohio 5 etc aren't going to be impacted by this sort of legislation.

Even at our beloved Alma mater, kids come from backgrounds wealthier than I could have imagined when I was there in the 80s. I can remember when the Athens Station project was being built, I thought who could afford that? A couple years ago, I had some time on my hands and I was walking around campus and made my way to the old depot and the Athens Station Apartments. It was a nice Saturday morning before a football game, when I overheard a young woman tell her mother and father that surely they didn't expect her to live in that dump next year, as they were walking by Athens Station. How times have changed. Kids expect a lot and so do their parents, besides the campus offerings, many are concerned with aesthetics and air conditioning. I doubt that many of the elite (even our own Bobcat elite) are going to fret over out of state tuition changes passed by state legislatures. There are more students that we probably can imagine who come to a particular campus simply because of prestige and the programs offered. The cost of it is way down the list for many of them, for the simple reason that mom and dad are paying for it.


For a public university Miami has a very large percent of students from the top 1% at 7% (vs 2% at OSU/>1% at Ohio and for comparison's sake 20% at Kenyon), but I feel that a lot of those Chicago kids are coming from comfortably affluent but not wealthy families. What happens when there's white collar layoffs or no bonuses in the coming years? In any event, I think it will more likely affect the decisions of new students rather than current ones. If a kid has both an admission to U of I and Miami, how is the percent who choose U of I going to shift? OSU has the deep pockets to throw scholarship money at their oos students and admits; Miami doesn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobi...


Hate to use the quote box but I wanted to keep this in context. At the risk of sounding tone deaf, $119,000 isn't a huge amount of money when you consider that the average salary for a family with two adults teaching school in Athens is $134,000, Dublin $165,000 and Coshocton where I did my student teaching $111,000. The whole state of Ohio is $113,000. Most teachers who have children going to college make above those averages in their respective districts. In Miami's case, it's more about the level of education attainment of the parents than anything. Regardless, all schools are going to have to up their game in terms of recruiting students which means it's time to engage some sales professionals outside the academy to get that done.



Or schools will lower standards to increase numbers.

I love those who believe that all these others are in trouble but act like OHIO is sitting in a Cats Bird Seat. Before this hit, applications were down 10%, the acceptance deadline has been pushed out to June. Itís not like we are sitting with a royal flush.


Oh, I don't think we were in any great position before this hit much less afterwards. It's just that I think Miami is in a little more precarious position than they like to believe, and I'm going to enjoy my schadenfreude should they get hit.

As for our problems, I still think much of it has to land at the feet of Rod McDavis. He failed to take advantage of favorable demographics to improve Ohio's admissions profile, rankings and reputation. Now, with those demographics reversed and the hit from the pandemic, we're in a bad spot moving forward. Not as bad as an Akron or WSU, but nowhere near as strong a position as we could have been.

McDavis loved to talk a big game and throw out the red meat that he was going to make Ohio more selective and prestigious than OSU. Yet here is what his administration really felt as evidenced by this 2016 quote from one of his top administrators in response to falling rankings:

[I]In a presentation to the board and community members, Senior Vice President for Strategic Initiatives Stephen Golding analyzed the latest numbers and justified OUís standing among other universities in the nation and region. Golding said OUís main priority is competing with the third tier of Ohio public schools, such as the University of Cincinnati, Kent State University and Bowling Green State University.[/I]

Not exactly what we were being told publicly by Rod.

https://thenewpolitical.com/2016/11/01/president-mcdavis-... /

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cbus cat fan
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Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 976

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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/9/2020 11:07:00 AM 
OUPride wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
OUPride wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
I seriously doubt any legacy kids from Miami are going to be impacted in the least by any change to Illinois law. I had a Ohio 5 administrator tell me that most of the Ohio 5 students come from out of state. She told me that with the exception of Dennison, we pretty much are made up of rich liberal kids from the Northeast. There grandparents were all Mr. Howell Country Club Republicans, but that changed with their parents. The truth of the matter, she told me that if they doubled their tuition, they wouldn't have much to worry about, since a lot of them pay full freight and even give large donations to token poor kids who aren't from the same demographics as are the majority. The core make-up of places like Miami, the Ohio 5 etc aren't going to be impacted by this sort of legislation.

Even at our beloved Alma mater, kids come from backgrounds wealthier than I could have imagined when I was there in the 80s. I can remember when the Athens Station project was being built, I thought who could afford that? A couple years ago, I had some time on my hands and I was walking around campus and made my way to the old depot and the Athens Station Apartments. It was a nice Saturday morning before a football game, when I overheard a young woman tell her mother and father that surely they didn't expect her to live in that dump next year, as they were walking by Athens Station. How times have changed. Kids expect a lot and so do their parents, besides the campus offerings, many are concerned with aesthetics and air conditioning. I doubt that many of the elite (even our own Bobcat elite) are going to fret over out of state tuition changes passed by state legislatures. There are more students that we probably can imagine who come to a particular campus simply because of prestige and the programs offered. The cost of it is way down the list for many of them, for the simple reason that mom and dad are paying for it.


For a public university Miami has a very large percent of students from the top 1% at 7% (vs 2% at OSU/>1% at Ohio and for comparison's sake 20% at Kenyon), but I feel that a lot of those Chicago kids are coming from comfortably affluent but not wealthy families. What happens when there's white collar layoffs or no bonuses in the coming years? In any event, I think it will more likely affect the decisions of new students rather than current ones. If a kid has both an admission to U of I and Miami, how is the percent who choose U of I going to shift? OSU has the deep pockets to throw scholarship money at their oos students and admits; Miami doesn't.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobi...


Hate to use the quote box but I wanted to keep this in context. At the risk of sounding tone deaf, $119,000 isn't a huge amount of money when you consider that the average salary for a family with two adults teaching school in Athens is $134,000, Dublin $165,000 and Coshocton where I did my student teaching $111,000. The whole state of Ohio is $113,000. Most teachers who have children going to college make above those averages in their respective districts. In Miami's case, it's more about the level of education attainment of the parents than anything. Regardless, all schools are going to have to up their game in terms of recruiting students which means it's time to engage some sales professionals outside the academy to get that done.



Or schools will lower standards to increase numbers.

I love those who believe that all these others are in trouble but act like OHIO is sitting in a Cats Bird Seat. Before this hit, applications were down 10%, the acceptance deadline has been pushed out to June. Itís not like we are sitting with a royal flush.


Oh, I don't think we were in any great position before this hit much less afterwards. It's just that I think Miami is in a little more precarious position than they like to believe, and I'm going to enjoy my schadenfreude should they get hit.

As for our problems, I still think much of it has to land at the feet of Rod McDavis. He failed to take advantage of favorable demographics to improve Ohio's admissions profile, rankings and reputation. Now, with those demographics reversed and the hit from the pandemic, we're in a bad spot moving forward. Not as bad as an Akron or WSU, but nowhere near as strong a position as we could have been.

McDavis loved to talk a big game and throw out the red meat that he was going to make Ohio more selective and prestigious than OSU. Yet here is what his administration really felt as evidenced by this 2016 quote from one of his top administrators in response to falling rankings:

[I]In a presentation to the board and community members, Senior Vice President for Strategic Initiatives Stephen Golding analyzed the latest numbers and justified OUís standing among other universities in the nation and region. Golding said OUís main priority is competing with the third tier of Ohio public schools, such as the University of Cincinnati, Kent State University and Bowling Green State University.[/I]

Not exactly what we were being told publicly by Rod.

https://thenewpolitical.com/2016/11/01/president-mcdavis-... /



The bashing of former President McDavis continues to befuddle me. The man brought lots of private money to the university, as well as new construction that didn't break the bank. We reached our highest enrollment numbers, expanded the Medical school and increased it's reputation, so much so that physicians I know that once pooh poohed the medical college had their children apply to it, and sing it's praises. He also brought a sense of community that only an alum can bring. One more thing, he angered fringe, kook students and faculty members, a definite good thing. All in all, I miss the days of President McDavis.

Last Edited: 5/9/2020 11:08:32 AM by cbus cat fan

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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/9/2020 11:57:46 AM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
One more thing, he angered fringe, kook students and faculty members, a definite good thing.


I shudder to think what cbus' definition of fringe, kook students and faculty members is.

Last Edited: 5/9/2020 11:58:27 AM by bobcatsquared

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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 6,172

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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/9/2020 12:12:53 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
One more thing, he angered fringe, kook students and faculty members, a definite good thing.


I shudder to think what cbus' definition of fringe, kook students and faculty members is.


You and I better stay away from mirrors for a few days squared. :)

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cbus cat fan
General User

Member Since: 12/2/2011
Post Count: 976

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/9/2020 1:20:59 PM 
bobcatsquared wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
One more thing, he angered fringe, kook students and faculty members, a definite good thing.


I shudder to think what cbus' definition of fringe, kook students and faculty members is.


The man who brought us record enrollment, new buildings, expansion of the medical college to include partnerships with the Cleveland Clinic etc. What kind of thank you did he receive.? Not a nice bon voyage, farewell party that others preceding him got. Why? Because a few powerful members of the aforementioned fringe, kook, student and faculty group didn't ordain it to be so. Does that help?

Last Edited: 5/9/2020 1:45:43 PM by cbus cat fan

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Alan Swank
General User

Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 6,172

Status: Offline

  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 5/9/2020 1:54:09 PM 
cbus cat fan wrote:
bobcatsquared wrote:
cbus cat fan wrote:
One more thing, he angered fringe, kook students and faculty members, a definite good thing.


I shudder to think what cbus' definition of fringe, kook students and faculty members is.


The man who brought us record enrollment, new buildings, expansion of the medical college to include partnerships with the Cleveland Clinic etc. What kind of thank you did he receive.? Not a nice bon voyage, farewell party that others preceding him got. Why? Because a few powerful members of the aforementioned fringe, kook, student and faculty group didn't ordain it to be so. Does that help?


A bit of a recap.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/departing-ou-presi...
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