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Topic:  RE: higher ed in trouble

Topic:  RE: higher ed in trouble
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/13/2020 10:13:37 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Here's a very interesting site a semi-regular poster shared with me. Take a long and hard objective look at this. Things that I found particularly interesting are graduation rates, endowment, and signature programs and how those programs are relavent today and for the future. Also enrollment trends since 2014 are very telling. Hiram is a classic case of a downward spiral.

OhioCatFan wrote:

Alan, I find it strange that this site lists UC has having medical and law schools, and completely overlooks our medical school, which in terms of enrollment is now the largest in the state. I donít think this is anti-DO bias, I suspect itís just plain ignorance, but it does tend to make me doubt much of the other facts listed on the site. When I see a site or a publication that makes errors in the areas I know about, it always in my mind makes me doubt what they say in areas that I know nothing about. That is, they have a credibility issue with me.

Billy the Cat wrote:

Maybe because UCís Medical school has a reputation and is highly regarded?








Not sure what happened with the editing function, but below are my comments.


I happen to know the gentlemen Alan mentions in the link. He is a former administrator and has not only has worked with a lot of Ohio's colleges and universities, but he has visited every single one of them to do his research. He's got nothing against our medical college or our beloved Alma mater, but we just don't rank as high as some others. Having said that, I am amazed as to how many people are talking about our medical college in a positive way. I know a couple of doctors who are somewhat skeptical about DO's, but lately they have heaping praise upon us, probably because of our connection to the Cleveland Clinic etc.

Getting back to Dr. Jay Young's website, I think you can see where things are going for certain college and universities. The thing he has mentioned to me over and over again is educational synergies, enrollment and endowments.

Some places like Findlay College were in some trouble years again, but their standout Veterinarian program coupled with their Equestrian program has brought in students across the Midwest who can't find those combinations at a smaller college. Ashland seems to have righted the ship with their tuition freeze and some sort of job guarantee for certain majors, which I can't completely understand, but it seems to be working.

It is the lack of those types of synergies that are hurting places like Hiram, Wittenberg, Ohio Dominican etc. I don't quite have a handle on some of the bigger schools, obviously Akron's building program was a bust, but they do have other programs that help them. Print Journalism, once our bread and butter has taken a severe hit, but our Medical College has helped.

Part of me wonders how Wright State and Youngstown State are doing seeing as that they are facing a lot of competition in their respective Southwest and Northeast parts of the state. Northeast Ohio is in an demographics spiral to begin with, so there's a lot of tough sledding for any campus, especially places like Hiram. Obviously, Ohio State, Miami and Cincinnati will probably always be strong. The Ohio Five has few worries, Dennison with it's 2,000 students has an endowment larger than our's, and we are only second to Ohio State for state schools. Talk about a blow minding selling point for Dennison. Xavier, Dayton and John Carroll are in fine shape and bring in students from all over the place, which certainly helps.

Last Edited: 4/13/2020 10:21:17 AM by cbus cat fan

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/14/2020 5:00:03 PM 
You are certainly correct about the out of state tuition premium. Schools love that, as well as the foreign students paying full boat in cash. Those numbers have and will continue to go down. We may have to waive the out of state premium and also cut costs. I know that Youngstown State has waived out of state tuition premium and always thought it was because they had to. Who would travel to attend YSU?
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Bobcat Grad 86
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/21/2020 8:21:44 AM 
https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2020/04/shively-din...
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rpbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/21/2020 8:52:33 AM 
Yesterday I was speaking to a friend of mine who is teaching a class on slavery and the 13th Amendment at Montclair State.

He said he teaches the class like the ones he took in Law School,using the Socratic Method.
Going on line,that's gone.
That means grading is now based only on research papers.
At least that's workable.

But, he said that professors whose classes include exams, have told him that they have no way to assure the integrity of exam results.

Same thing,professors have said that they don't believe that students now taking "virtual" classes in subjects like Calculus 1 ,will be anywhere near prepared for Calculus 2.

Montclair State is already seeing a big drop in enrollment, based only on the anticipation that their fall classes will be on line only.
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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/21/2020 9:50:21 AM 
Here's the distribution of COVID relief funding for Ohio colleges. It's spread so thin, that it's essentially irrelevant to any four year university's overall budget.

https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/po...
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Buckeye to Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/21/2020 12:03:21 PM 
Few things:

1. Urbana University just shuttered for good. Not surprised. I anticipate a boatload more private schools to go under. The key to watch for is who has endowments/trusts within the agri sector (which OU really doesn't) Therefore, safe to say your Ohio States of the world sit in a better spot due to this.
2. Ohio University is on shakier ground than anyone wants to admit. Operates similarly to the state of Michigan where they kick everything down the road. We haven't had our day of the bill coming due, but it's coming faster than you think. Too much bureaucracy at the top and buildings that need repaired. Yeah, OU as we know it will be on thinner ice in a hurry.
3. If the Shively spending spree happened in athletics (i.e. a $1.8 million renovation to the softball stadium, then shuttered the program not even two years later), The Post and every stinking alum would be having a field day on that topic.
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Bobcat Grad 86
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/21/2020 1:02:15 PM 
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:
Few things:

1. Urbana University just shuttered for good. Not surprised. I anticipate a boatload more private schools to go under. The key to watch for is who has endowments/trusts within the agri sector (which OU really doesn't) Therefore, safe to say your Ohio States of the world sit in a better spot due to this.
2. Ohio University is on shakier ground than anyone wants to admit. Operates similarly to the state of Michigan where they kick everything down the road. We haven't had our day of the bill coming due, but it's coming faster than you think. Too much bureaucracy at the top and buildings that need repaired. Yeah, OU as we know it will be on thinner ice in a hurry.
3. If the Shively spending spree happened in athletics (i.e. a $1.8 million renovation to the softball stadium, then shuttered the program not even two years later), The Post and every stinking alum would be having a field day on that topic.


I wonder how big the Culinary Services Staff was back in the 80"s?

https://www.ohio.edu/food/staff

So Rich Neumann was in charge of the Shively project. In this 2010 interview, he was asked what he would be doing if he was not in food service and he answered
Financial analyst or CFO of a Wall Street firm.

https://www.foodservicedirector.com/people/confessions-ri...


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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/21/2020 1:16:38 PM 
Bobcat Grad 86 wrote:
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:
Few things:

1. Urbana University just shuttered for good. Not surprised. I anticipate a boatload more private schools to go under. The key to watch for is who has endowments/trusts within the agri sector (which OU really doesn't) Therefore, safe to say your Ohio States of the world sit in a better spot due to this.
2. Ohio University is on shakier ground than anyone wants to admit. Operates similarly to the state of Michigan where they kick everything down the road. We haven't had our day of the bill coming due, but it's coming faster than you think. Too much bureaucracy at the top and buildings that need repaired. Yeah, OU as we know it will be on thinner ice in a hurry.
3. If the Shively spending spree happened in athletics (i.e. a $1.8 million renovation to the softball stadium, then shuttered the program not even two years later), The Post and every stinking alum would be having a field day on that topic.


I wonder how big the Culinary Services Staff was back in the 80"s?

https://www.ohio.edu/food/staff

So Rich Neumann was in charge of the Shively project. In this 2010 interview, he was asked what he would be doing if he was not in food service and he answered
Financial analyst or CFO of a Wall Street firm.

https://www.foodservicedirector.com/people/confessions-ri...




Want to see something interesting? Cross-reference that list of staff in the link above with this link on salaries.

http://projects.thepostathens.com/SpecialProjects/the-pos...

And there is this. I wonder what our refund amount will be.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news/local-education/mill... /

Last Edited: 4/21/2020 1:19:21 PM by Alan Swank

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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/21/2020 3:07:51 PM 
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:
Few things:

1. Urbana University just shuttered for good. Not surprised. I anticipate a boatload more private schools to go under. The key to watch for is who has endowments/trusts within the agri sector (which OU really doesn't) Therefore, safe to say your Ohio States of the world sit in a better spot due to this.
2. Ohio University is on shakier ground than anyone wants to admit. Operates similarly to the state of Michigan where they kick everything down the road. We haven't had our day of the bill coming due, but it's coming faster than you think. Too much bureaucracy at the top and buildings that need repaired. Yeah, OU as we know it will be on thinner ice in a hurry.
3. If the Shively spending spree happened in athletics (i.e. a $1.8 million renovation to the softball stadium, then shuttered the program not even two years later), The Post and every stinking alum would be having a field day on that topic.


Urbana was already pretty much absorbed by Franklin University in C-bus. Is it not just a logical next step of that transaction or is it something new related to the pandemic?

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Buckeye to Bobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/21/2020 4:22:16 PM 
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:
Few things:

1. Urbana University just shuttered for good. Not surprised. I anticipate a boatload more private schools to go under. The key to watch for is who has endowments/trusts within the agri sector (which OU really doesn't) Therefore, safe to say your Ohio States of the world sit in a better spot due to this.
2. Ohio University is on shakier ground than anyone wants to admit. Operates similarly to the state of Michigan where they kick everything down the road. We haven't had our day of the bill coming due, but it's coming faster than you think. Too much bureaucracy at the top and buildings that need repaired. Yeah, OU as we know it will be on thinner ice in a hurry.
3. If the Shively spending spree happened in athletics (i.e. a $1.8 million renovation to the softball stadium, then shuttered the program not even two years later), The Post and every stinking alum would be having a field day on that topic.


Urbana was already pretty much absorbed by Franklin University in C-bus. Is it not just a logical next step of that transaction or is it something new related to the pandemic?



A mix to be honest. I mean those geniuses were still sponsoring D2 sports for whatever ungodly reason.
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/22/2020 12:18:39 AM 
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:
Few things:

1. Urbana University just shuttered for good. Not surprised. I anticipate a boatload more private schools to go under. The key to watch for is who has endowments/trusts within the agri sector (which OU really doesn't) Therefore, safe to say your Ohio States of the world sit in a better spot due to this.
2. Ohio University is on shakier ground than anyone wants to admit. Operates similarly to the state of Michigan where they kick everything down the road. We haven't had our day of the bill coming due, but it's coming faster than you think. Too much bureaucracy at the top and buildings that need repaired. Yeah, OU as we know it will be on thinner ice in a hurry.
3. If the Shively spending spree happened in athletics (i.e. a $1.8 million renovation to the softball stadium, then shuttered the program not even two years later), The Post and every stinking alum would be having a field day on that topic.


Urbana was already pretty much absorbed by Franklin University in C-bus. Is it not just a logical next step of that transaction or is it something new related to the pandemic?



A mix to be honest. I mean those geniuses were still sponsoring D2 sports for whatever ungodly reason.


They released their 2020 football schedule less than two weeks ago.


We will get by.
We will get by.
We will get by.
We will survive.

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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/22/2020 8:41:08 AM 
It was a few years ago when the WSJ reported that, annually, an average of 8 small private colleges had been closing. Plus, at that time, others were staring into the abyss but managed to step back. In Ohio such schools included Capital and Wittenberg. At that time a young next door neighbor was in her first year in Capital's nursing program. She and her parents were worrying that Capital might close before she completed her studies.

Looking at the current situation and peering into the future, it seems as though many colleges - small private ones and state-assisted schools in more rural areas - are seeing Covid-19 as a sharp-breaking curve ball when they are already down two strikes - changing demographics and fewer students and their parents willing to take on huge debt loads.

Add increasing online coursework as Strike 3 and Covid-19 might be shaping up as Strike 4.

Looking into the future, I see only the biggest of state-assisted schools, particularly those located in major metro areas, and elite private schools with huge endowments positioned strongly to endure.

All others, including Ohio, would be well-advised to have exceptional leadership to avoid collapse.


http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/22/2020 10:32:09 AM 
Wonder if this oft-floated idea of combining KSU and UA will get more traction now: https://www.beaconjournal.com/news/20190406/bob-dyer-time...
And, what about BG/UT?


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/22/2020 4:16:36 PM 
State definitely needs to consolidate schools. Question is whose ox gets gored?

One politically expedient answer would be to create a network of The Ohio State University at _________ campuses.


YSU, Akron, Cleveland State and Wright State would easily fit into the OSU universe, meaning their alumni wouldn't raise too much a stink. Miami, Cincy, BG, Toledo and OU would not.


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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/22/2020 5:32:36 PM 
SBH wrote:
State definitely needs to consolidate schools. Question is whose ox gets gored?

One politically expedient answer would be to create a network of The Ohio State University at _________ campuses.


YSU, Akron, Cleveland State and Wright State would easily fit into the OSU universe, meaning their alumni wouldn't raise too much a stink. Miami, Cincy, BG, Toledo and OU would not.




I'll take it a step further, we need to also consolidate public school districts - not necessarily high schools but districts. There is no reason a county the size of Athens - 66K- should have five different districts with all of the associated administrative and transportation and food service costs.

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SBH
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/22/2020 5:46:27 PM 
But Alan, how would all the superintendents be able to pay for their in-ground pools?

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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/22/2020 6:06:02 PM 
SBH wrote:
But Alan, how would all the superintendents be able to pay for their in-ground pools?



You lost me on that one SBH.

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OUPride
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/22/2020 8:08:16 PM 
SBH wrote:
State definitely needs to consolidate schools. Question is whose ox gets gored?

One politically expedient answer would be to create a network of The Ohio State University at _________ campuses.


YSU, Akron, Cleveland State and Wright State would easily fit into the OSU universe, meaning their alumni wouldn't raise too much a stink. Miami, Cincy, BG, Toledo and OU would not.




The question is does OSU have any interest in this. I just see no upside on their part when things are pretty much humming along for them. Why add even one of these problem children. The only reason--somewhere to stockpile kids who don't get into Columbus--is already covered by their branch campuses. I think OSU's position would be to sit back and let it play out like Ivan Drago, "If Akron dies; it dies."
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cbus cat fan
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/23/2020 4:06:55 PM 
I think private Higher Ed institutions are going to have to resort to clever tactics like those recently undertaken by Franciscan University in Steubenville. The school is picking up the tuition tab for all incoming Freshman to keep that class intact. It might not be a bad idea for Wittenberg, Hiram and some others to ponder something similar.
https://www.wtrf.com/news/ohio-headlines/franciscan-unive... /

As far as Urbana, it was a mess when Franklin took it over. I had a few meetings with their innovative President Christopher Washington who I assume will continue with similar duties at Franklin.
https://www.franklin.edu/about-us/faculty-staff/universit...

He brought the place back from the abyss and they were building up their endowment and tightening their programs when the pandemic hit. I am sure Franklin felt they had invested enough and saw that building it up again was going to be a bridge too far. Christopher Washington is a man on the move and I am sure he will lead another institution very soon. He was greatly admired by his peers.

When he inherited the place, the endowment was gone and they could barely make payroll. In three short years he turned the place around, but the moral of the story is some of these places are in such trouble that it won't take much for them to fall apart. Much like driving in the country and seeing a rickety old barn in the fall, only to be in tatters on the ground in the following summer due to high winds from a storm in the winter or spring. Sadly, so it might be the same for a few more Higher Ed institutions.

Last Edited: 4/23/2020 4:10:47 PM by cbus cat fan

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IceCat76
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/24/2020 9:17:39 AM 
OUPride wrote:
SBH wrote:
State definitely needs to consolidate schools. Question is whose ox gets gored?

One politically expedient answer would be to create a network of The Ohio State University at _________ campuses.


YSU, Akron, Cleveland State and Wright State would easily fit into the OSU universe, meaning their alumni wouldn't raise too much a stink. Miami, Cincy, BG, Toledo and OU would not.




The question is does OSU have any interest in this. I just see no upside on their part when things are pretty much humming along for them. Why add even one of these problem children. The only reason--somewhere to stockpile kids who don't get into Columbus--is already covered by their branch campuses. I think OSU's position would be to sit back and let it play out like Ivan Drago, "If Akron dies; it dies."


I think that O$U would have interest in swallowing up Wright State in some fashion. It's proximity to Wright-Patt would provide a large pool of highly motivated graduate level students that have an enormous amount of USG tuition benefits to spend. Also, the Air Force Institute of Technology is located there. Lot's of opportunity for joint programs not to mention getting the inside track on research contracts.
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Alan Swank
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/25/2020 12:56:41 PM 
16 sports it is:

https://ktvo.com/news/nation-world/ncaa-denies-request-to...
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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/25/2020 1:13:41 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
16 sports it is:

https://ktvo.com/news/nation-world/ncaa-denies-request-to...


We are good, our cuts will be support staff and travel
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GroverBall
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/25/2020 2:19:16 PM 
OUPride wrote:
Here's the distribution of COVID relief funding for Ohio colleges. It's spread so thin, that it's essentially irrelevant to any four year university's overall budget.

https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/po...


Thanks for posting, I missed the release of this info. I'm not sure "essentially irrelevant" applies however? According to the article OU receives $19.5 million, which at least, I believe, covers the refunds to students? Obviously this doesn't solve all our problems, but it certainly helps?

I'm surprised your posting this info didn't get a rise out of our loyal daily BA commentators.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/25/2020 2:31:46 PM 
GroverBall wrote:
OUPride wrote:
Here's the distribution of COVID relief funding for Ohio colleges. It's spread so thin, that it's essentially irrelevant to any four year university's overall budget.

https://www.portman.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/po...


Thanks for posting, I missed the release of this info. I'm not sure "essentially irrelevant" applies however? According to the article OU receives $19.5 million, which at least, I believe, covers the refunds to students? Obviously this doesn't solve all our problems, but it certainly helps?

I'm surprised your posting this info didn't get a rise out of our loyal daily BA commentators.


I agree with you, Grover, this is a significant chunk of change, and will help a lot. In the long run, I worry about inflation with all this government printing of money, but in the short term it is a definite plus.


"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: higher ed in trouble
   Posted: 4/26/2020 1:59:05 PM 
We keep doing QE, we keep being worried about the fallout, and everything stays the same.

Economics is a scam.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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